A Race Pakistan Cannot Possibly Win

[paritosh]

India must time and again focus its attention and get inspired by Chinese building capability, Israeli national security structure, Japanese national character and German efficiency.

We need to set our bars higher.

I am not a big fan of our jugaad work ethic. There is so much to be done, people in India do not pursue excellence in any way.

 

[Hellfire]

Well looks like you guys are becoming more active.

Hardly.

Some fanboys needed to be calibrated. My mistake. I should have known better.

 

[Gryphon]

What constitutes an IA IBG used in CSD?

IA chief Gen Bipin Rawat:

“An IBG could have four to six battalions of infantry and armoured, two to three artillery regiments, an engineers unit, integrated signals unit and also dedicated integral logistics.”

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/new-battle-groups-to-face-pak-says-army-chief/678928.html


These are effectively 8-10 Mech. divisions as IA will most probably merge some IABG's with these IBG's. What are PA's options as IABG/IMBG's and 2x Mech. Div's will no longer cut it?

 

[Signalian]

IA chief Gen Bipin Rawat:

“An IBG could have four to six battalions of infantry and armoured, two to three artillery regiments, an engineers unit, integrated signals unit and also dedicated integral logistics.”

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/new-battle-groups-to-face-pak-says-army-chief/678928.html


These are effectively 8-10 Mech. divisions as IA will most probably merge some IABG's with these IBG's. What are PA's options as IABG/IMBG's and 2x Mech. Div's will no longer cut it?

How many of IA IBG's are deployed next to the border presently ?

 

[MilSpec]

(btw , this is the best emoji here )

Stop making an issue of non-issue. Personal attack?
Ah, the logic of typical Pakistanis like you, who will try to gain advantage with 'personal attack', 'offending our religion' etc etc @Dubious Tagging you here. Keep a track.

The Citation I have given , suggest speak to your people who matter. They will know precisely who I have quoted

Pehele decide karlo, cold start hai ya nahin!

Your typical types logic:

1. India has Cold Start - they will launch attacks without mobilizing the strike corps.
2. We have NASR

and coup de grace:

3. We will have Gunships and UCAVs to cherry pick the formations

4. PAC does so an so. Arre time aur paisa to lagta hi nahin, wish kiya subah tayyaar?

If Cold Start is there, you will be facing an attacking force ... and what do you think goes into that?

Man you are a laugh

Here, your last warning. Am impressed:

View attachment 521587

Cheers

@MilSpec @Nilgiri @Sam. @Dash @nair @Joe Shearer don't miss this one ... not interacted with him earlier.

Went through the thread, quite entertaining, and too much time on @hellfire's hand.

the professionals that chap summoned were quite interesting (with no disrespect to @DESERT FIGHTER , I have long butted heads with him and I have grown to like his contributions here).

 

[ziaulislam]

The completion of the first deterrence patrol by INS Arihant, India’s first home-developed, nuclear-powered submarine, completing the nuclear deterrence triad, procurement of the S400 missile systems from Russia and the induction of new heavy-calibre guns for the artillery are changing the balance of power in the subcontinent. There was immense criticism by Pakistan in every forum, including international gatherings, when India signed the S 400 missile deal.

They projected the shifting of balance of power in India’s favour leading to increased security concerns. Pakistan sought to suggest that the entire subcontinent was being impacted by security concerns. This was ignored by South Asian nations and the world community as they realised that apart from Pakistan, India has no adversary in South Asia.

Similar criticism flowed when INS Arihant was inducted into the service. The Pakistan foreign ministry spokesperson stated, “This development marks the first actual deployment of ready-to-fire nuclear warheads in South Asia. This is a matter of concern not only for the Indian Ocean littoral states but also for the international community at large.” In each case it projected its desire for peace as also its preparedness for war.

Pakistan has yet to comment on the induction of new artillery guns, which could change the equation in conventional operations as also crossborder violations. It permits the Indian army to strike deep into Pak territory hitting administrative bases and terrorist camps, which earlier could only be targeted by cross-border strikes as employing rockets or air power could add to escalation. The comment is likely to flow in the coming days, when these guns begin being deployed.

While Indian military power is aimed at deterrence from China, it is Pakistan which is panicking. The Pakistani armed forces are aware of India’s growing military might for conventional warfare as also its growing nuclear deterrence capability. However, their financial constraints have compelled them to counter the same by claiming deployment of tactical nuclear missiles. Their international standing has dropped to the level that assistance from all allies, including the US, has dried up forcing them to look at only China for support.

China is a ready provider for multiple reasons. Firstly, it must keep the Pakistan army in good humour. It is aware that its investments in the CPEC are secure provided it has the backing of the Pakistan army. Simultaneously, it cannot announce its true expenditure in the CPEC to the world as the Pakistani army has skimmed a part of the funds, almost terming it as a bribe for ensuring its continuity. Any action by Pakistan to limit the expansion of the CPEC would impact the power of Xi Jinping, as this project is the key to the Belt Road Initiative (BRI), which covers large parts of the globe.

Secondly, enhancing the military power of Pakistan would impact Indian defence expenditure as also its concentration of forces. As a result of Chinese support, diplomatic and military, India has always been forced to consider a two-front war. It has also provided Pakistan the confidence to continue pushing militants into Kashmir, keeping it destabilised.

As India restructures and modernizes its armed forces, it pushes Pakistan into a corner. Pakistan cannot bank on its so-called tactical nuclear weapons, as international pressure and swift Indian strikes may preclude their employment even within their own territory. The only option which it has is to run to the Chinese for near similar capabilities. Since it lacks financial stability including the ability to repay earlier loans, it may not get blanket Chinese support.

Pakistan is now moving towards the IMF for a bailout package, despite assistance already provided by Saudi Arabia and likely to be provided by China. The delay in China providing financial assistance is that it is bound to seek its pound of flesh, mainly ensuring the security and continuity of CPEC, where it has invested heavily. The IMF is bound to impose its own terms, some of which would be crippling and disadvantageous for the army including cutting down its defence expenditure.

The IMF terms would not be for a short duration but lengthy enough to pinch Pakistan. By curtailing the defence budget, it would restrict the ability of Pakistan to make new purchases to meet Indian capability expansion, adding to the growing gap. It could bank on Chinese largesse but the same would not be enough as repayment ability would be low.

The Pakistani army, which cannot be seen to be considered weaker as India continues to enhance military power, would be compelled to divert funds from other sources to meet its needs, seeking to hide these investments. These funds would impact social security services in Pakistan adding to problems of its population. While the ISI has complete control over the country and there are no voices which can criticise the actions of the army, internal rumblings against the government would rise.

One of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union was it being pushed into an arms race with the US. It had to continue enhancing its military capabilities to ensure NATO remained at bay. It was forced into doing so, despite a vast gap in the economic status of the two countries. Thus, the arms race was unsustainable and broke the economy of the Soviet Union.

The Pakistan army has suffered in every war with India, hence is always concerned about Indian military power. It can never accept the fact that it can never compete militarily with India. The gap between the economies of India and Pak is similarly wide. Pushing Pakistan into an arms race, by continuing to enhance Indian military power may have a similar result as the breakup of the Soviet Union.


https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/race-pakistan-cannot-win-1502709548.html

Since 1971 the game is over. With india proving that it will abolish Pakistan at first chance Pakistan as nation decided on MAD paln

So nope..no matter what india does, it cant do anything as mutual assured destruction is something the elite is not ready for

 

[Hellfire]

(btw , this is the best emoji here )



Went through the thread, quite entertaining, and too much time on @hellfire's hand.

the professionals that chap summoned were quite interesting (with no disrespect to @DESERT FIGHTER , I have long butted heads with him and I have grown to like his contributions here).

The entertaining part is, dunderheads still do not get what is being said.

Yea, I need to get out of here. Do not have the time. Was only trying to calibrate our fellow nation's young ones (those who are not re-logged), to not get bogged down on arguing a lost argument. YOne can better spend time arguing with a wall

 

[CriticalThought]

The entertaining part is, dunderheads still do not get what is being said.

Yea, I need to get out of here. Do not have the time. Was only trying to calibrate our fellow nation's young ones (those who are not re-logged), to not get bogged down on arguing a lost argument. YOne can better spend time arguing with a wall

Oh please, take your fragile ego somewhere else. Is that the best you can do? Side banter with your personal claque of clowns?

 

[Gryphon]

How many of IA IBG's are deployed next to the border presently ?

IBG's are being raised, so I would think none of them is deployed as of today.

 

[randomradio]

How many of IA IBG's are deployed next to the border presently ?

Zero.

 

[MilSpec]

The entertaining part is, dunderheads still do not get what is being said.

Yea, I need to get out of here. Do not have the time. Was only trying to calibrate our fellow nation's young ones (those who are not re-logged), to not get bogged down on arguing a lost argument. YOne can better spend time arguing with a wall

I have always maintained nature of discourse is a direct representation of upbringing, it all boils down to that.

 

[thinkingcap81]

It has to do with tactics. And if you do look at the ratio of field artillery pieces (towed), we have about 2 times or so more. It is, after all, the quantum of force that can be brought to bear upon the adversary at a particular point of time.

Hypothetically, Armoured Formations under the so called Cold Start, will be breaching the IB first (of course expect casualty rates of about 65-80% in that assault for worst case planning). Since these will be preceded by fire assaults by the Artillery, much of mobility is not needed. Even after breach (mind you, the adversary will be having a mine field laid, so it takes time for the replenishment and logistics vehicles to drive up, and in case of Punjab - you will need bridging equipment and in Rajasthan - sand tracks for the vehicles), you will have time as consolidation of the breach has to be done in order to exploit it.

And all this while, you do not expect the adversary to wait for you, right?

So, here, their SPGs will be an advantage for them to switch their force levels in a comparatively shorter time (purely for fire support). It is a long boring sequence of ifs and buts. So, just a gist. Ponder over that.

Thanks for the more realistic scenario. 65-80% casualty rates is a very sobering thought - it is a huge number. Aam junta does not have the appetite for that; whatever typical news anchors may holler about, the reality is different. IA might have sufficient firepower, but accepting death of our own is not easy. Pak military knows that.

Another disadvantage for us is that our soldiers will be up against PA which will be fighting hard to reclaim their land - this will automatically make their soldiers very motivated.

IMO we cannot launch any overt military assault till we can be sure of minimizing our losses/casualties while doing maximum damage to them, whether infrastructure or soldiers. This capacity buildup will take quite some time.

More than anything i think that we must become so strong that the very promise of an Indian military assault is enough to ensure peace. Given the strategic positions both countries have taken, as an Indian this seems the best military posture to me.

The adversary is a professional army, that one must never make a mistake of ignoring. But they have the basic handicap of proximity of their critical centres adjacent to the border, the loss of which will be a public relation debacle. Hence, they may, under pressure and given the right circumstances, make decisions that may prove costly for them.

That has been the trend in all the wars so far. Great troops, but next to useless leadership, both political and professional.

There was never any doubt about that. No idea what you meant by the part in blue.

Too bad that you have decided to excuse yourself from this thread.

 

[MilSpec]

By that measure your mate @hellhound seems like a transvestite.

By such petty remarks you are reinforcing my statement. I am not aware of who "hellhound" is. If such petty hominem school yard insults is not what you intended but stand with conviction behind you "remark" then there must be something remarkably different about upbringing of transvestites which frames their narrative of battlefield systems that you are aware of; feel free to share with us, given you seem to be quite tuned into such things.

 

[CriticalThought]

By such petty remarks you are reinforcing my statement. I am not aware of who "hellhound" is. If such petty hominem school yard insults is not what you intended but stand with conviction behind you "remark" then there must be something remarkably different about upbringing of transvestites which frames their narrative of battlefield systems that you are aware of; feel free to share with us, given you seem to be quite tuned into such things.

Actually it's pretty simple. In the sub-continent clapping on every sentence is a very trans thing to do. And the internet equivalent is excessive smilies.

 

[MilSpec]

Actually it's pretty simple. In the sub-continent clapping on every sentence is a very trans thing to do. And the internet equivalent is excessive smilies.

I am sorry but I don't think you even know the difference between a transvestite and a transgender individual. Next you couldn't even grasp a simple sentence that nature of discourse reflects upbringing, and used it to assign an incorrect insult in an incorrect context. Fail of such magnitude just makes things so much more funnier. Lets see if you can top this.