A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Moving this reply to this thread.



I agree that presently a few Kashmiri Muslims support regressives like Asiya Andrabi but there is also the element of ghettoized religiosity which is the outcome of living for decades in a high-pressure military occupation territory where the people are allowed to show mostly religious activity and feeling.

But that there are also progressive elements in Kashmir. You may not be aware that the famous Lal Chowk area was named so by socialist activists who fought Maharaja Hari Singh. And currently there is MY Tarigami who is the long-standing leader of the Communist Party of India ( Marxist ). In 2012 there was begun the first Kashmiri girl music band which consisted of a trio, they received backlash from the mullahs there but were supported by quite a few local sensible people including Umar Abdullah and Shehla Rashid.



Firstly, quite a few members misunderstood the main reason of my mentioning of Baath ideology. I presented the two Baath countries ( Iraq and Syria ) as illustration of two Muslim-majority countries who can remain independent in all matters but can follow the same progressive ideology. For India and Pakistan my intention was to say that both can adopt the Jamahiriya theory aka Third Universal Theory which is a Direct Democracy Socialism system. Not only will India and Pakistan benefit but the Indian Kashmiris will see that : (a). The new progressive political system originates from a Muslim-majority country ( Libya ) so they should have no logical objection to it, (b). Since Pakistan also will have the same system the Indian Kashmiris will see no practical and logical need to see their territory to secede into Pakistan, no need for that slogan "Kashmir banega Pakistan".



Yes, ZAB was inspired by socialists ( including Baathists ) into founding his socialist party PPP. I quote my thread from 2016 which is an article by Nadeem Paracha about socialist activism among Muslims in the modern times. The below quote is about Pakistan :

The above article does not mention the earlier attempt by Faiz Ahmed Faiz and some comrades in their quest to capture power towards socialist governance. The episode called Rawalpindi Conspiracy.

But Pakistan was not the only Muslim-majority country in the Subcontinent to experiment with socialist governance. You can read the above article for mention about Afghanistan.



How will you convince the Hindutvadis who see Kashmir as part of Akhand Bharat ? Just yesterday there was a BJP leader who said that.

This is why Indians (sadly Muslims included) should not talk about Kashmir.

You loyalties are not with the people of Kashmir, but your own country.

 

[jamahir]

This is why Indians (sadly Muslims included) should not talk about Kashmir.

You loyalties are not with the people of Kashmir, but your own country.

What in my post made you think that I don't have empathy towards Kashmiris ?

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

How will you convince the Hindutvadis who see Kashmir as part of Akhand Bharat ? Just yesterday there was a BJP leader who said that.

No one takes the statement of Fadnavis seriously. There is some high level trolling being done by all the parties.

Indian Muslim League and Sanghis are the biggest supporters of the partition.

The only party which truly desired a united India were the Muslims of India specifically the followers of Jamaat-e-Islami as they knew Muslims would be a majority in united India.

Hindus were never and are not interested in united India as majority Muslims rule will mean that Hindus will be given the three options like it happened with all non-Muslims all across the world through out the history.

• Convert to Islam
• Pay Jizya Tax to avoid conversion
• Death

 

[achhu]

A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan
Written by: Jamahir
Category cloud: Opinion, analysis
​

India and Pakistan need to settle the long, sad but frankly immature dispute over Kashmir once and for all. Peacefully and politically. Both have similar social, economic and political problems so any nuanced and generic solution for one country can also be used by the other country. The prescribed solution by the UNO is impractical. As it involves, as far as I understand, India withdrawing military units stationed in India-administered Kashmir and then arranging for a plebiscite there while also accepting the UNO as a mediator. But the Indian Establishment believes, as also its foreign allies, that India-administered Kashmir is primarily a matter internal to India but since Pakistan cannot be wished away the matter should involve both countries settling the matter between themselves, peacefully and politically. But any such settlement should benefit both the countries immediately and in the long term.

Therefore I present one solution as below. The solution is based on Muammar Gaddafi's solution for Kashmir to which I have added some bits.

1. Both countries should adopt the same Progressive political system. Two separate, independent republics but with the same political system, much like what pre-2003 Iraq and Syria were with their same Ba'athist systems. The Progressive political system can be the Direct Democracy Socialism system that governed Libya until the 2011 war. Readers can refer to these pages to understand how this system works. This system is called the Third Universal Theory aka Jamahiriya theory. In India, a form of Direct Democracy called Swaraj is being implemented in Delhi by the ruling AAP party and is also being forwarded by the Swaraj Abhiyan movement and there is no reason why it cannot be extended to Pakistan as well.

2. Let Indian-administered Kashmir and Pakistani-administered Kashmir remain with their respective countries.

3. Convert the LoC into an International Border that is accessible for trade, tourism and family visits.

All this will make the separatists in India-administered Kashmir to understand that their desire to join Pakistan-administered Kashmir is unnecessary because both countries will have become the same, politically.

Furthermore, with separatist militancy reduced in Indian-administered Kashmir, what will remain is regressive religious militancy or activism which can be controlled and removed with social support by progressives among the local population. The side effect will also be a drastic removal of the current military force which will lead to more goodwill for the peace project.

I speak of the troubles and concerns of Muslims in Indian Kashmir and I will also speak of the troubles and concerns of the Kashmiri Pundit refugees. There must be something like Nelson Mandela's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I would like the refugee Kashmiri Pandits to be allowed to return back to the Valley.

The next step would be resumption of the Aman Ki Asha peace mission as well as resumption of food and clothing festivals to be organized in both countries.

If not for such a solution, how long would the Establishments of India and Pakistan keep up with this cross-border hate? For another 50 years? 100? Until a reformed UNO decides to send in a military arbitrator force? And would the people of both countries not like the money and other resources spent by their respective militaries in positioning against each other to be spent on making each others countries a welfare state where there are things like high quality free medical system like in Cuba?

An important point is that the given solution will not only benefit the Kashmiri's but also will bring progress to India and Pakistan - socially, economically and politically.

Lastly, to extend a point about direct democracy socialism, It worked in Libya and it is being implemented in Venezuela ( the consejos comunales - communal councils ). Two different kinds of countries, ethnically and geographically. No reason why India and Pakistan cannot adopt the system given the fact that both countries have so much in common. And just Direct Democracy without the socialism part has been the system in Switzerland for long.

_______________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: The post only represents writer's own point of views. The post do not represent point of views of Pakistan Defence management. Pakistan Defence Team will not be responsible for disagreements.
_______________________________________________________________________
Credits: The post is written by Jamahir, India. The proof reading and some other editing has been done by Think Tank Analyst, Forcetrip. The final formatting, editing and picture uploading is done by Slav Defence., Think Tank Vice Chairman.

this is very good solution.

What in my post made you think that I don't have empathy towards Kashmiris ?

he is anti hindu . he lives in an imaginary world where pakistan is going to do ghazwa hind on India .

 

[jamahir]

this is very good solution.

Thank you.

he is anti hindu .

I don't think @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan is that. He is usually nuanced. The haters are @hussain0216 and @PAKISTANFOREVER.

Hindus were never and are not interested in united India as majority Muslims rule will mean that Hindus will be given the three options like it happened with all non-Muslims all across the world through out the history.

• Convert to Islam
• Pay Jizya Tax to avoid conversion
• Death

Come on, four of the founding members of the Communist Party of India were Muslim. Jinnah was a sophisticated and generally a secular man and in early Pakistan there were some socialist activists who tried to enact a military-centered coup ( the Rawalpindi Conspiracy ) to bring about socialist governance. There are currently a few Pakistani Muslim progressives who want a certain chowk in Pakistan to be named after Shaheed Bhagat Singh.

Surely these people would not have brought about a repressive country where non-Muslims are foisted with your three options.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

What in my post made you think that I don't have empathy towards Kashmiris ?

Let them decide their own destiny, why try to impose slavery on them?

Why make them suffer what Indian Muslims suffer on a daily basis?

I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

I don't think @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan is that. He is usually nuanced. The haters are @hussain0216 and @PAKISTANFOREVER.

Bro, do not mischaracterize my brothers that way.

The Hindu Indians have problems with me because I have completely debunked their lies against Islam and Pakistan.

 

[The Maverick]

Kashmir want to determine their destiny
sikhs want to determine their destiny
China,wants ladakh
pakistan wants sir creek

where do you draw,the line guys.

it ain't happening

Kashmir ladakh etc is a,strategic stranglehold and water supply to entire sub continent .what Kashmir people want is irelrvant in new,Delhi.

status,quo is the only real outcome give or take one inch

 

[achhu]

Kashmir want to determine their destiny
sikhs want to determine their destiny
China,wants ladakh
pakistan wants sir creek

where do you draw,the line guys.

it ain't happening

Kashmir ladakh etc is a,strategic stranglehold and water supply to entire sub continent .what Kashmir people want is irelrvant in new,Delhi.

status,quo is the only real outcome give or take one inch

we will keep what is in our hand . we can't get pakistani kashmir unless india becomes economic power house .

 

[The Maverick]

we will keep what is in our hand .

that's,how the world works since Dawn of time .

the mighty shall inherit the world.

 

[Deltadart]

I see the status quo in kashmir changing only when traitors nawaz and bilawal are installed as the rulers with the capitulation of the establishment at the hands of the powers that can bully them into accepting such a dreaded outcome.
Second, india becomes a super power in reality, and not as they fancy themselves now. Besides, they will be challenged like all powers are by other great powers.
Their reign should such a manhood day ever come, will be very short.

 

[Mutakalim]

1. Both countries should adopt the same Progressive political system.

because both countries will have become the same, politically

You dream will never come true. We will prefer death over this same political system.

1. The religious Right can be told that the progressive system in question comes from a Muslim-majority country ( Libya ) which in the past has helped Pakistan. The Right must be asked about their logical objections to such a proposal.

I think you are living in a parallel universal. The argument of religious right does not revolve around some system which was implemented in a Muslim majority country for just few years. Rather, their argument is based on principles of Quran and Sunnah.

I think ethnic cleansing of Muslim population from subcontinent will prove easier for you than convincing Muslims to accept this secular socialist system.

Your "practical solution" wont bring peace. Even if you hand over AJK to India, that won't bring peace either.

The doves on our side like yourself are usually too optimistic when they think about mending ties and foregoing claim on Kashmir. The thing which doesn't ever cross their mind is that India wants regional hegemony, and us foregoing claim on Kashmir (which we practically did during Musharaf's time) won't do any good as it didn't do any good back then. Momin doesn't get bitten from one hole twice!

No one says go to war but what guarantee there is that throwing Kashmir away will solve all problems of the region? do they care about IWT or UN resolutions? what makes you think that it will be a safe bet?

Furthermore, they no longer want to talk with us at all on Kashmir. With the Modi govt, the facade is no more. But still you fail to see the reality. Afsoos, sad afsoos.

The only thing acceptable to India is complete and unconditional surrender of Islamic Republic of Pakistan in front of Hindu hegemon. Nothing less will be acceptable to them. I dont know why some Pakistanis are unable to understand this fact, even after losing 70,000 lives.

 

[jamahir]

Let them decide their own destiny, why try to impose slavery on them?

You misunderstand. I do not wish for the Indian state to impose slavery on them. I wish to humbly ask our members, and especially our resident Indian Kashmiri @Saahir Malik, to read the OP again and discuss it among their acquaintances and find that not only do I wish things like removal of those hundreds of thousands of central Indian forces ( not local police ) but through Kashmir I present the solution to the antagonism between India and Pakistan and also to effect a progressive political, economic and social system within India and Pakistan.

ATM I see nobody talking of even the Musharraf formula :

The Musharraf plan’s four points were:

1. Demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops

Millions of troops, on both sides of the Line of Control (LoC), are stationed in Kashmir. According to Musharraf, both India and Pakistan would have scaled back its troops in the region for a lasting peace. Whether this would be gradual, phased withdrawal or not had to be worked out by the two sides.

2. There will be no change of borders of Kashmir. However, people of Jammu & Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control (LoC).

The LoC is effectively a ceasefire line, which both sides accepted in the Shimla Agreement of 1972. However, neither India nor Pakistan accepts it as the International Border. Both nations claim all of Kashmir. If Musharraf’s plan were to be accepted, India would have to accept Pakistan’s sovereignty over Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (which Pakistan refers to as its province of Azad Kashmir) and in return, Pakistan would accept Indian suzerainty over the part of Jammu and Kashmir on India’s side of the LoC. The ceasefire line would then become the International Border and both sides would give up claims over the other half of Kashmir. However, the people of Jammu and Kashmir would be allowed to move freely to the other half of the region.

3. Self-governance without independence

Pakistan has long been an advocate of what it calls ‘Kashmiri self-determination’ but Musharraf was willing to give that up in favour of a greater measure of autonomy. Vajpayee would likely not have too many objections with this clause of the agreement because the Indian Constitution already allows autonomy for J&K under Article 370. While this would have meant that the BJP would have to give up one of its core ideological positions, the repeal of Article 370, it would put an end to Pakistani support to pro-independence Kashmiri insurgents.

4. A joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir.

Musharraf’s decision to include local Kashmiri leadership in the supervision mechanism would have given him a greater chance at selling a potential Musharraf-Vajpayee accord to the people back home in Pakistan.

Years after the Summit fell through, Musharraf had claimed that the Indian side had gone back on the agreement even though a draft resolution was ready to be signed. “I was told that the Indian Cabinet had refused to give its nod,” Musharraf had said at an event in 2004.

But according to one account, there was only one man who became a roadblock in the peace deal – separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani. Kasuri wrote in his book, “He (Geelani) described President Musharraf’s four-point agenda as vague, and criticised the president’s statement on UNSC resolutions’ relevance to Kashmir.”

He added, “Fortunately, other Kashmiri leaders I met recognised the need for unity in the ranks of Kashmiris. They were more pragmatic and by and large unwilling to go along with Geelani’s rigid approach.”

But there were roadblocks within the Indian establishment as well. Former Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) Chief AS Dulat said in a 2015 interview that it was then Deputy Prime Minister LK Advani who derailed the Agra Summit. "The Advani of Delhi and the Advani of Agra were different," Dulat said in an interview to Rediff, "He raked up the issue of Dawood Ibrahim at a dinner hosted for visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf on the eve of the Agra Summit. Musharraf was taken aback and told Advani, 'Let us at least go to Agra'."

Whether it was the adversarial stance of Advani and Geelani that derailed the summit or whether it was Vajpayee’s mistrust of Musharraf, since the Kargil War took place just months after his Lahore Bus Yatra, the two-day Agra Summit ended in failure and Musharraf flew back to Islamabad without an agreement being signed.

My solution is not only the above but is meant for overall developmental changes to India and Pakistan.

Why make them suffer what Indian Muslims suffer on a daily basis?

I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

Thank you for that understanding.

Bro, do not mischaracterize my brothers that way.

Most of PAKISTANFOREVER's posts are troll posts that talk about the "ugliness" of Indians and other things related to India. I have months ago asked him to change that all-caps lettering of his user-name to small-case ( why is he shouting ? ) and replace that angry-looking Turkish or French soldier in his profile-pic. He will calm down.

About hussain0216, he is found generally talking about the incompatibility of marriages of Muslim and non-Muslims, and his strange advises to Indian Muslims ( separatism and what not ).

Kashmir want to determine their destiny
sikhs want to determine their destiny
China,wants ladakh
pakistan wants sir creek

where do you draw,the line guys.

it ain't happening

Kashmir ladakh etc is a,strategic stranglehold and water supply to entire sub continent .what Kashmir people want is irelrvant in new,Delhi.

status,quo is the only real outcome give or take one inch

My solution is partially the status quo and I have quoted Musharraf's formula above plus my solution enlarges to include India and Pakistan. Please read the OP again.

We will prefer death over this same political system.

What is your objection ? Please read Gaddafi's Green Book here. My solution borrows from it.

The argument of religious right does not revolve around some system which was implemented in a Muslim majority country for just few years. Rather, their argument is based on principles of Quran and Sunnah.

1. That Libyan system existed for 40+ years.

2. I am sure Gaddafi derived inspiration for some of his thoughts from he Quran. I quote this text from the Green Book Chapter 3 :

Societies which prohibit the teaching of religion are reactionary societies, biased towards ignorance and hostile to freedom. Societies which monopolize religious education are reactionary societies, biased towards ignorance and hostile to freedom. Equally so are the societies which distort the religions, civilizations and behaviour of others in the process of teaching those subjects. Societies which consider materialistic knowledge taboo are likewise reactionary societies, biased towards ignorance and hostile to freedom. Knowledge is a natural right of every human being of which no one has the right to deprive him or her under any pretext, except in a case where a person does something which deprives him or her of that right.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You have too many issues, I don't even know where to begin.

Please stop the mischaracterization of our Pakistani and Kashmiris brothers.

@Saahir Malik is a Kashmiri. He never called himself Indian.

@PAKISTANFOREVER can use whatever username, profile pic he wants. We value his words on this forum.

Same for brother @hussain0216 .

I dont know why you defend open Hindu trolls and then demean Muslim Paks, but it is getting very old.

 

[jamahir]

@Saahir Malik is a Kashmiri. He never called himself Indian.

Sorry to say but we ( you ) are going in circles.

I dont know why you defend open Hindu trolls and then demean Muslim Paks, but it is getting very old.

Can you point me to posts where I have done that ?

 

[Musings]

You misunderstand. I do not wish for the Indian state to impose slavery on them. I wish to humbly ask our members, and especially our resident Indian Kashmiri @Saahir MalikMost of PAKISTANFOREVER's posts are troll posts that talk about the "ugliness" of Indians and other things related to India. I have months ago asked him to change that all-caps lettering of his user-name to small-case ( why is he shouting ? ) and replace that angry-looking Turkish or French soldier in his profile-pic. He will calm down.

The only way we have peace within Kashmir is by allowing Kashmiri their own faith.

with respect who are you to tell a member what name to use? That’s really a ridiculous request. Perhaps you being a daily resident here should look at the reason why he dislikes Indians - do you not see the regular infestation of troll posts? Please spare me the nativity