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A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan

Even the Taliban want the foreign troops out and want to effectively rule Afghanistan again. But do they have a vision for the country five years hence ? Or do they want their same old same old of burqa'ed women out of schools and workplaces ? Asiya Andrabi and her husband yes want self-determination for Kashmir but what is their vision for the region five years hence ? A Kashmiri version of Taliban-ruled Afghanistan ?

And this female's son seems also to be some Talibanized type who supported the former Bombay films actress Zaira Waseem in her morality-led decision to quit acting.

You should ask the three woman members of that former music band Pragaash whether they would like living in Asiya Andrabi's paradise.
^
Strawmans arguments.

I already made it clear that it is not only Asia who wants to throw your oppressors out. Secular nationalists of JKLF want the same and so do the moderates. Your rapist and murderer army is perhaps what you want the Kashmiris to accept. Till this day, over 11k reported incidents of molestation have been carried out by your army. Rape has been used as a weapon of war against freedom movement by your army [acknowledged by Human Rights watch and UNHRC]. Over 70k people murdered, over 5k houses destroyed, over 10k missing. Valley dotted with detention centers which put Abu Ghuraib and Gitmo to shame. A third of population suffering from PTSD.....yet Asia's burka is a bigger problem than Indian occupation. RIP logic.
So you want Asia out and RSS sanghis (many of whom are in Indian forces) who want to kill and rape Kashmiris in...in-short continuation of Indian colonization in Kashmir...again RIP logic.

You fail to recognize three basic issues:
1- Kashmir is occupied by India which is behaving like a colonial power and suppressing aspirations of local population through brute force.
2- Gross human rights violations carried out by Indian state.
3- The fate of Kashmir must be decided by the Kashmiris themselves. Not by India and not by Pakistan.
Now, until you swallow your socialist Indian nationalist pride and recognize the aforementioned issues, it is useless to talk to you.

P.S You talk about govt framework post-independence as if Indian occupation framework is the best in the world. And you don't know much about Taliban or Afghanistan so better stay on topic instead of digressing. Your communists killed over 30K in Pul-e-Charki and elsewhere when they brought their "popular revolution" so your kind has no leg to stand on when it talks about morality and human rights. If you want to talk about Afghanistan then this is not the thread for it.
And this female's son seems also to be some Talibanized type who supported the former Bombay films actress Zaira Waseem in her morality-led decision to quit acting.
TBH with you, your mentality wants to make me puke now...

Your Indian state is keeping her, her husband and scores of other political prisoners (including Yasin Malik of JKLF) in isolated cells....yet some actress's decision to quit Bollywood vulgarity and someone supporting that decision is the greatest "terrorism" in the world and not the crimes committed by your state. Sorry to say, you are no better than Stalin and Beria.

I think I believe that too, which is why my solution for Kashmir goes through changing the political, social and economic structure of India and Pakistan.
Kashmir is a matter of survival for Pakistan, and a matter of ego for India.

I will leave it at that. If you are smart.

I do not deny that your argument has a sound basis but just think about the alternatives.

India would b quite happy if we accept the LOC as the international border; which it is in all but name since 1948, whichever way you look at it. This is definitely not acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis or the Kashmiris.

Agreed that Musharraf's proposal (suggested in my post) would be difficult at this point in time, but tell me honestly, is there any other " Practicable solution?
Your "practical solution" wont bring peace. Even if you hand over AJK to India, that won't bring peace either.

The doves on our side like yourself are usually too optimistic when they think about mending ties and foregoing claim on Kashmir. The thing which doesn't ever cross their mind is that India wants regional hegemony, and us foregoing claim on Kashmir (which we practically did during Musharaf's time) won't do any good as it didn't do any good back then. Momin doesn't get bitten from one hole twice!

No one says go to war but what guarantee there is that throwing Kashmir away will solve all problems of the region? do they care about IWT or UN resolutions? what makes you think that it will be a safe bet?

Furthermore, they no longer want to talk with us at all on Kashmir. With the Modi govt, the facade is no more. But still you fail to see the reality. Afsoos, sad afsoos.
 
...hmmm.....isnt this indirectly implying Sharia law? I dont see how Kashmiris will live in a Western style "democratic" or "progressive" govt locally. what do you even really mean by "progressive"? these terms have to be clarified so we all know do the best degree possible what you mean by those words in this situation. cheers.

I did not imply Sharia law as understood in say Taliban-ruled Afghanistan. And why should "progressive" mean only Western-style democracy which is not actually democracy at all ? :)

By "progressive" I meant this in the OP :
The Progressive political system can be the Direct Democracy Socialism system that governed Libya until the 2011 war. Readers can refer to these pages to understand how this system works. This system is called the Third Universal Theory aka Jamahiriya theory.
The words "these pages" should have linked to the below link which unfortunately did not appear in the OP when the admins proof-read the article :
 
But the status quo in India-administered Kashmir has led to such things as the recent nine month lockdown there. Unfortunate this.



But in case of India and Pakistan they do not seem to want to move on.

Does the lockdown still continue ? How can people make a living with such situation ?

Do you think India still want to get another half of Kashmir if Pakistan military getting much weaker due to let say it put more focus on economic development than military build up ?
 
PAF has excelled throughout the history, Since it isn’t the primary deciding force, It’s potential is undermined by PA and the Decision Makers.

Trust me, If in a conflicting situation, PAF is given free hand to Conduct independent operations, PAF wouldn't leave any stone unturned to Achieve Air superiority as well as Control over surrounding enemy Air spaces and create a buffer zone.

It is just that land forces business is much more complex and time consuming as well as sensitive to plan that the overall advancement is restricted in a war.
Land warfare is a messy business no doubt but any future war must be an air-land battle if any success is expected. I think the key lies in the independent ability to support a large coordinated conventional war for many weeks or months if needed (the "war machine"). WW2 showed that nations can have a huge percentage of their economies focused an warfare for many many years. Especially the socialist/communist type economies. The current global economic order is on its last legs anyway (kind of like before WW2). This national mobilization requires huge disruptions to civilian life but is needed if peace in Kashmir is to be attained in my assessment. Unless this price is paid, status quo will remain.
 
Does the lockdown still continue ? How can people make a living with such situation ?

Do you think India still want to get another half of Kashmir if Pakistan military getting much weaker due to let say it put more focus on economic development than military build up ?

Opening up in the rest of the country.

Except Kashmir and Maharashtra.
 
Inter-caste marriage occurs in India but this is still a taboo. Less then 5% of marriages in India are Inter-caste. Most likely in individuals that are secular and not too devote.
British Pakistanis have a cousin marriage (which North Indians never do because of gotra exogamy) rate of 50-70%, how then you can claim that mainland Pakistanis are hyper-exogamous?
 
British Pakistanis have a cousin marriage (which North Indians never do because of gotra exogamy) rate of 50-70%, how then you can claim that mainland Pakistanis are hyper-exogamous?
Old stats. This is in decline.
 
Dead wrong, listen Maulana Israr Ahmed's views on socialism, they aren't fools, they know their game.

Use the proper title, it is Dr. Israr Ahmad, one of the major students of Maulana Maududi and Allama Iqbal in Pakistan. He was not only a religious scholar, but accomplished in his personal life as well. He even studied German philosophy in Germany, same as Iqbal did. He was originally from Haryana. I knew him personally, great man, Rahmat Allah alayh.

British Pakistanis have a cousin marriage (which North Indians never do because of gotra exogamy) rate of 50-70%, how then you can claim that mainland Pakistanis are hyper-exogamous?

I don't know much about UK, but Pakistanis are moving very rapidly away from cousin marriages. No one in my extended family has married family members, all have married outside, including Pukhtoons and other Zats.
 
Old stats. This is in decline.
And where it stands now?
https://www.dawn.com/news/1077113
“The Shadi season is in full swing in Islamabad, and so is the cult of Rajput matchmakers’. This was the opening sentence of a friend’s email.

Beginning on a light note, it turned into a longwinded whine that he was dreading the idea of meeting girls his mother had short-listing at various functions.

Though not averse to the idea of marriage, the Rajput friend insists he is facing a dilemma. “I cannot hurt my mother’s feelings but she will go mad if she finds out I like a Kashmiri girl,” he wrote, his impassioned plea a stifling reminder that when it comes to tying the knot, clans are no less than cults.

To an outsider, all Punjabi speakers will simply seem ‘Punjabis’ but that is not always the case. Jatt, Rajputs, Gujjars and Arains are clans that are found on both sides of the now divided Punjab. Though the stocks mostly consist of Muslims and minorities on this side of the border, and Sikhs and Hindus on the other side, the primary identities still remain strongly rooted with the biradari.

Article continues after ad

A question on whether a Jatt/Arain/Rajput/Gujjar will marry a man/woman from the other clan was posed by this writer to a number of young and old Punjabis. The replies ranged from interesting and insightful to down right racist and plain sad.

A young Arain woman from Rawalpindi confided that she wanted to marry a Jatt boy but both families were against the match. “His family threatened to cut off all ties with him and that was the end of our romance,” she says.

Another middle-aged Kashmiri man says that the girl he fell in love with was a Jatt. “Her brothers, though educated and urbane, refused my proposal.”

“Real Rajputs don’t marry outside their caste, particularly with Jatts, because we are superior then others,” was one reply, while a matchmaker from Rawalpindi said that the general perception of Gujjars and Jatts was very negative. “They are uncouth and I avoid dealing with them.”

“We only got Kashmiri girls into our family because of their fair complexion,” was the reply received from some Jatt and Arain families.

A Jatt family says that the idea of marrying their sons or daughters to Arain is a big no-no.

“No outsider has married into our family in the last five generations,” the aging patriarch said. A young one from the same house chimed in sarcastically: “See how a minority is discriminating against its own people.” Talking to Dawn, Aslam Sandhu, a retired senior government official in Islamabad, says that marrying within the same caste, particularly the Jatts and Rajput clans, is not going to end anytime soon.

“Right from Jhelum to Rahimyar Khan, you have this entire belt populated by the Jatts and Rajputs. There are so many of them and the families seek their own kind,” he says.

A Jatt himself, he says that the stereotypical image of Jatts is wrong, adding: “There are decent, educated boys and girls from Jatt families and there is no harm if they get married. However, consanguineous marriages are being avoided now, particularly by educated families.”

He went on to explain that inbreeding had led to children being born with mental disabilities.

Mr Sandhu’s wife Shafaq Munawar is well-known in Islamabad and Rawalpindi’s Jatt families and her active social life has led to many Jatt boys and girls getting hitched.

Offering free matchmaking service between suitable Jatt families, she says that the prime reason for Jatts choosing to marry within their clan is ‘tradition’.

“Rasm-o-rawaj aik hay sab Jatt families ka!”

“The families feel at ease this way. Also, Jatts still prefer arranged marriages for their children but at times the new generation rebels,” she added.She went on to explain that in most cases, the will of the Jatt mother prevails eventually and the son ends up marrying the girl of her choice.

She further added that Urdu-speaking families had no qualms in marrying their daughters into Punjabi families, regardless of the Jatt, Arain or Kashmiri background.

“If a Jatt man marries a girl from another clan/ethnicity/race, his wife and children will be accepted over a period of time,” she said.

While Jatt men choosing to marry women from other clans and ethnicities, eventually find acceptance within families, it is not the same for Jatt girls.

“We don’t marry our girls outside. A Jatt girl who marries an outsider is practically shown the door; she is simply cut off. Even if ties aren’t severed, her children will not find acceptance,” Mrs Shafaq said solemnly.

“Each and every time a Jatt/Rajput/Gujjar girl marries an outsider, the delicate balance of the universe is disturbed,” opines a fiery young Jatt woman while highlighting the plight of females caught in a web of societal norms and caste system. Sadia, who calls herself a victim of double standards, says that the biradari mentality is not only limiting the physical and mental gene pool, but is also increasing the number of emotionally unfulfilled individuals, particularly women.

“My brothers and male cousins have married women of their choice. One’s wife is a Mexican who converted to Islam. However, the minute I said I wanted to marry a Jatt boy, my mother threw a nasty fit and said he was not a match worth considering,” she says.

His only fault was his clan, the Rajput girl says. She married the man of her choice but has no contact with her family.

“At a recent wedding of a family friend, my mother left the venue in anger the minute she saw me,” she says.

While the Jatts and Rajputs are often accused of being rigid in their ways and suffering from an extreme superiority complex, are they alone to be blamed for the cult of ‘marriage within clans only’?“Arains have the same disease,” exclaimed noted travel writer and Fellow of Royal Geographical Society Salman Rashid when this writer asked him for information.

Probably one of the few Pakistanis to have travelled all over the country, he offers an interesting insight, not only as an anthropologist and geographer but also as an Arain.

“All over Pakistan, almost every caste/clan/tribe prefers marrying within the family,” he says.

He recalled that on a trip to Swat, he came across many mentally challenged young men in a village where cousin marriages and inbreeding was the norm.

“Zameen butt jaye ge,” is one of the biggest fear in the agrarian society, he says, adding that the pressure to keep land within the family led to an increase in cousin marriages.

“Also, the concept of cousin marriages took root when Islam came to the subcontinent else in Hinduism and even Sikhism, marrying a woman from the same village was considered a sin. Some people knew the dangers of inbreeding 2,000 years ago,” he says.

Rashid says that it’s more of a social issue as well and superiority complex does come into play.

“I am amazed that we haven’t turned into monkeys with cousin marriages being a norm in this country,” he says in jest. On a serious note, he is hopeful that the younger generation from these clans and caste system will change things.

“A few decades ago, a Jatt marrying an Arian was a big no. But now so many young people are marrying into other clans and it’s a positive sign,” he says.
 
Does the lockdown still continue ?
The security lockdown of last year, lasting nine months, seems to have ended but like @padamchen indicated, that lockdown has now continued into the Corona-related lockdown.

How can people make a living with such situation ?

Well, I truly cannot imagine. As one clue to us, I read somewhere that a newspaper publisher went every morning to the printing press to print a one-sheet newspaper and then sold it. The paper was sold out by 7 AM I think.

For food and related things, I truly cannot imagine.
 
I am a pragmatist & a realist. Pakistan is not likely to be strong enough to take the Indian occupied Kashmir by force any time in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, regardless of the party in power, India is never going to ‘Gift’ IOK to Pakistan.

In view of the above, the only feasible solution is what was proposed by Musharraf; that is, to make the communication & travel between the two parts so easy for the “Kashmiris” that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA- Canadian border.

At least in my humble opinion, whatever we as Pakistanis or the Indians think & wish, Kashmir problem is not going to disappear any time soon.

I appreciate your intent as its more inclined toward better life and ease for kashmiris rather than advocating for land gains for either of countries.

Having said that, I see one flaw, a flaw which comes naturally to human, especially Indian and Pakistanis, we never want to miss opportunity. Be sure hawks at either side will try to exploit the "irrelevant border" to build their own narrative, strengthen their positions and hit at the right time.

Why not expand the Musharraf Plan, rather then limiting it to two parts of Kashmir.
1. Sign a no war agreement between India and Pakistan
2. Mark LoC as IB. Allow not just kashmiris but rest of the population to travel each other nation freely. Kashmiris can be given preference. This will simply negate any future sinister plan to plot insurgency in either part as both nation has already agreed to each other sovereignty.
3. Special attention to tourism as CBM. Atleast 1% GDP growth will be resulted by tourism only
4. Continued restriction on outsiders to be a citizen of Kashmir.
 
Use the proper title, it is Dr. Israr Ahmad, one of the major students of Maulana Maududi and Allama Iqbal in Pakistan. He was not only a religious scholar, but accomplished in his personal life as well. He even studied German philosophy in Germany, same as Iqbal did. He was originally from Haryana. I knew him personally, great man, Rahmat Allah alayh.
Wasn't he a Maulana too? Why focus on only one title?
Cousin marriages are fine.

Very common in Zoroastrians as well. Both Parsi and Iroon.
In short term it's Ok but it accumulates over generations.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-individual-and-social-risks-of-cousin-marriage
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5927581/The-tragic-truth-cousin-marriages.html
https://www.nature.com/articles/266440a0
 
Wasn't he a Maulana too? Why focus on only one title?

That is how he was known. I don't know anyone who called him anything else.

In Pakistan, Dr. usually becomes the title in lieu of anything else.

I used to sit with him and we hosted him many times. I was very close to him. May Allah swt bless him with firdous.
 
Wasn't he a Maulana too? Why focus on only one title?

In short term it's Ok but it accumulates over generations.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-individual-and-social-risks-of-cousin-marriage

Yeah I'm not talking about it as a practice institutionalised.

But it's more common in smaller communities like ours.

However, it's not new to us. And it comes from our ancient Persian roots.

It was neither uncommon with the Greeks or the Egyptians.

It's a cultural thing.

For a Hindu he will recoil in horror because for him it's equal to making love to his sister.
 

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