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The type 211 was a planned but never built class of German submarines, to be designed for the German navy in the mid-1980s as replacement for the type 205 and type 206 U-boats. The German Navy wanted both to contribute to NATO see strategy and to secure the survival of the German U-boat industry. Early in 1986 the TR 1600 design from Emden based Nordseewerke was short-listed as preferred design for further development. However in spring of 1987, 2 years prior to the delivery of the first Ula class / Type 210, the 211 project was terminated due to financial difficulties. It turned out to be impossible to procure both the U211 and the F123 projects at the same time. The already developed elements of the design went into the next U-boat project, the type 212 class.
Based on Babelfish translation of a German article in MarineForum

The type 211 is neither the German version of the Norwegian Ula class, nor is it the Dolhpin class, developed in the mid 1980s to Israeli specification.

Check the link to the German article: on p 3 of 7 there is a schematic of a Type 209/1400, from which the internal and external similarities with 214 are evident when compared to the 214 schematic provided earlier. Eternally at least, Dolphin class is more similar to 214 than to 212A
 
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The type 211 was a planned but never built class of German submarines, to be designed for the German navy in the mid-1980s as replacement for the type 205 and type 206 U-boats. The German Navy wanted both to contribute to NATO see strategy and to secure the survival of the German U-boat industry. Early in 1986 the TR 1600 design from Emden based Nordseewerke was short-listed as preferred design for further development. However in spring of 1987, 2 years prior to the delivery of the first Ula class / Type 210, the 211 project was terminated due to financial difficulties. It turned out to be impossible to procure both the U211 and the F123 projects at the same time. The already developed elements of the design went into the next U-boat project, the type 212 class.
Based on Babelfish translation of a German article in MarineForum

The type 211 is neither the German version of the Norwegian Ula class, nor is it the Dolhpin class, developed in the mid 1980s to Israeli specification.

As far as I know, my informations, that comes from real life submariner with whom I have the pleasure to talk every day, says that the submarine known as Dolphin (Irsraeli designation, germans uses numbers as project designations) is the project 211, 212’s grandpa.
Of course my informations could still be wrong, I should check that out in order to verify.


Check the link to the German article: on p 3 of 7 there is a schematic of a Type 209/1400, from which the internal and external similarities with 214 are evident when compared to the 214 schematic provided earlier. Eternally at least, Dolphin class is more similar to 214 than to 212A

I disagree, from an engineering point of view, 209 its very similar to 214 (you are right) but “Dolphin” its very similar to 212.
Its perceptive even from outside, compare dimensions (Dolphin and 212 are almost equals like 209 do with 214) and calculate the proportion index.
Both “211” and 212 have a pi under 9 (212 got a goofy 7.98!), that’s why they need a X rudders system instead of a conventional cross one, while both 209 and 214 have a pi above 9 (214 have a good 10.31), in fact both uses a cross system.
Internal compartmentations may be different, but basically, a submarine design (without hold in consideration everything in it, such as equipments, propulsion etc.) its estimated in relation with the fluid in which its submerged, so in order to compare two projects you should look the basic values such as length, height, diameter, wet displacement and so on.
That’s not a surprise since 212 and 214 are direct evolutions respectively of 211 and 209 projects!

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I've noticed just now that you had previously replied to the acustic signature question before I did, sorry for that, it was not my intention to overlap you ;)
About that message, let me correct a few little but critical things:

Belows the surface, subs run not on diesel but on electric motors. In a nuclear sub, there are no diesel, just electric motors. However, in order to regulate a nuclear power plant, you need to cool it constantly, which means the SSN has pumps on constantly pumping coolant for the nuclear plant, which are a source of noise that an SSK on batteries or AIP doesn't have to contend with.

Nuke subs doesnt not run on electric motors (the last generations uses em for silent running operations, but its not possible to switch the reactor tottally off), nuke submarines are operated by a steam reactor that drives a turbine directly geared to the shaft, there is none electric motor in the middle (ecs are used to store energy, but not for propulsion).
Also, there are several diesel AIPs out there (AIPs born with diesel!), submarines runs underwater on electrical, diesel or nuclear power.
 
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my informations, that comes from real life submariner with whom I have the pleasure to talk every day,
= unverifyable for any of us on the forum.

submarine_evolution_gross.jpg

Source: ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems
Note: 210 (Ula class), 210mod (proposal) and 211 (Marine design, not built) are not in this diagram. 210/Ula - while smaller - is already very similar to Dolphin, which has been stated to have been built to Israeli specs.

U212a
Dimensions:
Length 56m
Beam 7m /5,6m
Draught 6m
Height above sail 11,5 m
Displacement (Surfaced) 1,450t-1,524t
Displacement (Dived) 1,830t
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/specs.html
http://www.hdw.de/de/klasse-212a.html
http://www.marineforce.net/class-212A.html

210mod (X-form rudders, hull mounted diving planes, takes feature from 210/Ula, 209, 212A and 214)
Dimensions
length 58,4m
Max. Inner diameter 5,5m
Height above sail 10,8 m
Displacement 1.150 t
http://www.hdw.de/de/klasse-210mod.html
http://www.marineforce.net/class-210mod.html
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2007/10/hdw-introduces-type-210mod-submarine.html
http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.de/bilder/bilder_download/Submarine_Class_210_mod.jpg

Dolphin class
Dimensions:
Length 57-57.3m
Beam 6.7-6.8m
Displacement (Surfaced) 1,550-1,640t
Displacement (Dived) 1,900t
http://www.marineforce.net/dolphin.html

I disagree, from an engineering point of view, 209 its very similar to 214 (you are right) but “Dolphin” its very similar to 212.
Its perceptive even from outside, compare dimensions (Dolphin and 212 are almost equals like 209 do with 214) and calculate the proportion index.
Both “211” and 212 have a pi under 9 (212 got a goofy 7.98!), that’s why they need a X rudders system instead of a conventional cross one, while both 209 and 214 have a pi above 9 (214 have a good 10.31), in fact both uses a cross system.
Internal compartmentations may be different, but basically, a submarine design (without hold in consideration everything in it, such as equipments, propulsion etc.) its estimated in relation with the fluid in which its submerged, so in order to compare two projects you should look the basic values such as length, height, diameter, wet displacement and so on.
That’s not a surprise since 212 and 214 are direct evolutions respectively of 211 and 209 projects!
Dolphin is similar externally to 212 in that e.g. it has X-form rudders, but is more like 214 in that e.g. it has hull mounted diving planes. By comparison the TR-1700 (for Argentina) has +-form rudders like Dolphin and 214 but sail-mounted diving planes like 212A.

http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesyste...?level=3&CatID=6.594.596&inhalt_id=541&cat=21


[edit]

I've noticed just now that you had previously replied to the acustic signature question before I did, sorry for that, it was not my intention to overlap you ;)
About that message, let me correct a few little but critical things:

Nuke subs doesnt not run on electric motors (the last generations uses em for silent running operations, but its not possible to switch the reactor tottally off), nuke submarines are operated by a steam reactor that drives a turbine directly geared to the shaft, there is none electric motor in the middle (ecs are used to store energy, but not for propulsion).
Also, there are several diesel AIPs out there (AIPs born with diesel!), submarines runs underwater on electrical, diesel or nuclear power.

The main difference between conventional submarines and nuclear submarines is the power generation system. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce steam that drives steam turbines (cf. nuclear marine propulsion).
Nuclear submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, either
stmplt1.jpg

or steamturbine

Pic source: Nuclear Propulsion
 
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= unverifyable for any of us on the forum.

Yes its not verifiable (like most of things when dealing with Israel), I wont to convince anyone, that’s just what I know, trust it or not.

submarine_evolution_gross.jpg

Source: ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems
Note: 210 (Ula class), 210mod (proposal) and 211 (Marine design, not built) are not in this diagram. 210/Ula - while smaller - is already very similar to Dolphin, which has been stated to have been built to Israeli specs.

U212a
Dimensions:
Length 56m
Beam 7m /5,6m
Draught 6m
Height above sail 11,5 m
Displacement (Surfaced) 1,450t-1,524t
Displacement (Dived) 1,830t
U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology
Specifications: U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology
Klasse 212A
MarineForce International - Class 212A Submarine

210mod (X-form rudders, hull mounted diving planes, takes feature from 210/Ula, 209, 212A and 214)
Dimensions
length 58,4m
Max. Inner diameter 5,5m
Height above sail 10,8 m
Displacement 1.150 t
Klasse 210mod
MarineForce International - 210mod Submarine
Information Dissemination: HDW Introduces Type 210mod Submarine
http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.de/bilder/bilder_download/Submarine_Class_210_mod.jpg

Dolphin class
Dimensions:
Length 57-57.3m
Beam 6.7-6.8m
Displacement (Surfaced) 1,550-1,640t
Displacement (Dived) 1,900t
MarineForce International - Dolphin Submarine

Thank you for this specs recaps, what are meant for?
Fom this infos you can evince Dolphin and 212 compares.

Dolphin is similar externally to 212 in that e.g. it has X-form rudders, but is more like 214 in that e.g. it has hull mounted diving planes. By comparison the TR-1700 (for Argentina) has +-form rudders like Dolphin and 214 but sail-mounted diving planes like 212A.

I cannot understand your statement, how can you say that a submarine its similar to another by looking at his fore rudders position?
So even a Thypoon would be similar to a 214….
You know why 212 got sail planes while 214 got for hull one?
Because of the rudders system, the advantages of the X system allowed to moove planes above the boat barycentre.
Just look at main specifics, compare the four models (209,211,212,214) and make the couples.
ThyssenKrupp put 214 in the middle between 212 and 209 because it takes 212’s PEM system, thats all they have in common (and its not even the same module, 212 have 9 PEM while 214 have 2 but more powerful).


There is a bit of confusion (I suspect that you didn’t read the article that you’ve quoted ;) ).
As you can read in line number seven (I quote it for you):

..In the secondary system, the steam flows from the steam generators to drive the turbine generators, which supply the ship with electricity, and to the main propulsion turbines, which drive the propeller.

Its pretty clear also in the picture that you've posted, can you see the shaft going directly from the turbine's gear to the propeller?
You lack engine basics, how could you justify an EM used for propulsion on a turbine shaft? ;)
Its useless since the shaft its already spinning (what are nuclear reactor for then?)
The EM its for energy supply and for silent running (or backup ofc), can you see the green line?
If there something unclear please ask :)

On friendly terms of cuorse ;)
 
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Thank you for this specs recaps, what are meant for?
Fom this infos you can evince Dolphin and 212 compares
And how both compare to 210mod, a development of 210/Ula for Norway. Don't play dumb.

I cannot understand your statement, how can you say that a submarine its similar to another by looking at his fore rudders position?
Again, don't play dumb.

So even a Thypoon would be similar to a 214….
No, that's not what I said or suggested. Don't play dumb.


There is a bit of confusion (I suspect that you didn’t read the article that you’ve quoted ;) ).
I suspect you didn't read my quotes right as one clearly indicated either/or, which you should take to mean that it can be both as how you indicated as well as how I indicated. Perhaps you shouldn't assume about what I have and have not read...

As you can read in line number seven (I quote it for you):
Don't patronize, it is impolite and entirely unnecessary.

Its pretty clear also in the picture that you've posted, can you see the shaft going directly from the turbine's gear to the propeller?
Indeed. And there is also an electric propulsion motor to the immediate left of the propellor, as well as a battery below it, both of which receive electricity from the nuclear plant via the motor generator. So, that confirms either/or, doesn't it? And not steam exclusively, thank you. Running the steam turbine propulsion propably doesn't improve stealthiness (hence the electric motor), though it explains the high (sustained) underwater speed of an SSN.

You lack engine basics
Never said I 'm an engine expert. Meanwhile, while you accuse me of not reading properly and you yourself are not reading and viewing properly, you also lack manners.

If there something unclear please ask :)
Again, patronizing is impolite and entirely unnecessary

On friendly terms of cuorse ;)
The fact that you state this in this way implies otherwise.

Goodbye.

ps: the original explanation, about SSK versus SSN, stands
 
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I'm not going to reply you anymore quote by quote, you are closed and not willing to a constructive dialog (you just try to defend til death your wrong statemens, climbing mirrors and giving to the forum wrong informations).
I'm not tryng to convince you, I do argument, I do bring engineering samples, you compare rudders position..
Sorry if you didnt liked that someone else explained you how these things works from a technical point of view, and sorry if I sound arrogant it was really not my intention.
To me, you should also buy some books instead of quoting the net, this way, maybe, instead of write smart "don't play dumb" you would argument something that make sense when dealing with submarines engineering.

Yeah, original explanation stands.......:blink::blink:

1 Belows the surface, subs run not on diesel but on electric motors. 2 In a nuclear sub, there are no diesel, just electric motors. However, in order to regulate a nuclear power plant, you need to cool it constantly, which means the SSN has pumps on constantly pumping coolant for the nuclear plant, which are a source of noise that an SSK on batteries 3 or AIP doesn't have to contend with.

1 - wrong, submarine runs on ems, mechanical diesel and nuclear powered steam turbine.

2 - wrong, a nuke sub use nuclear powered steam turbine for MAIN propulsion (= 99,9% of the times) and they do have diesel engine for emergency (as well as ems).
EMs doesnt have any role on main propulsion (on the contrary on what you state in your mesage), as you can see in the picture that you've posted, they are for energy supply and silent running or backup and , in fact are fed by a secondary dedicated turbine (green line).
In your message its not even mentioned nuke subs engine, steam turbine.

3- not true, not all AIPs are more silent in comparison to a nuke powered steam turbine (just chemical ones), what about Diesel AIPs?

Goodbye to you!
 
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How can a diesel engine be quieter than a nuclear reactor?

This being the orinigal question. The person in question was under the assumption that a submerged SSK runs on diesels. Hence the statement 'Belows the surface, subs run not on diesel but on electric motors'. Not smart it is to quote out of context.

:coffee:

(Technically, a snortin SSK runs on diesel while submerged but this is obviously not what the poster meant. Deep diving and silent running will see use of EMs.)

I quote available online sources so that others may read along. That shouldn't be taken to mean I don't read books (= flawed logic)
 
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Dear Penguin, lets begin another white page, I've nothing against you, I love The Netherlands and Dutch people :cheers:

That said, what its not stil clear to you (my bad), is that ITS NOT TRUE that submarine does not runs on diesel engine while submeged, and I'm NOT talking about snorkeling.
I want to repeat it because maybe I didnt succed explaining myself earlier: sumbarines can run on DIESEL engine even when deeply submerged.
How? with AIPs systems.

What is AIP? (Air Indiendent Propulsion) its an engine that does not need air in order to be operated (even a simple EM + battery its a AIP system).
AIP can be split in two big families: heat engines and electrochemical systems.
In the heat family, the most commons are:
- closed cycle diesel (CCD)
- stirling engine
- closed cycle gas turbine
- recycle gas turbine
- steam rankine cycle (MESMA)

In the electrochemical systems we have:
- lead acid batteries
- advanced rechargable batteries (ARB)
- alkaline fuel cells
- proton exchange membrane (PEM)
- alluminuim power cells

Between the heat engines listed above, the first two uses diesel as fuel and the next couple use gas combustion.
As I said before, heat AIP born with the diesel engine Stirling.

I cannot link any site, but if you want to delve into the arguement there is plenty of documentation online.
If you want more infos about one of the systems listed above just shoot!

If there is something unclear, please ask (without any malice, like before).
 
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I was talking about conventional - non AIP - SSK versus SSN (as most operational SSKs are of this variety). AIP clearly changes the equation. Currently, system developers are actively pursuing the following generic approaches for achieving "closed cycle" operation:
Closed-cycle diesel engines, generally with stored liquid oxygen (LOX) > German TNSW
Closed-cycle steam turbines > French MESMA
Stirling-cycle heat engines with external combustion > Sweden's Kockums
Hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells > German HDW

Still, AIP is often auxiliary. E.g. Stirling engine turns a generator that produces electricity for propulsion and/or to charge the vessel's batteries (Swedish AIP). E.g Hybrid AIP systems with the submarine retaining a basic diesel-electric propulsion system because a fuel cell cannot deliver sufficient electrical output for high-speed operations, but the conventional storage battery can, at least for a short period of time, after which the fuel cell can recharge the battery as well as provide energy for low-speed operations (German 212a).
Only TNSW's CCD AIP system uses the same diesel as a conventional air-breathing engine for main propulsion on the surface or when snorkeling. "MESMA" (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP steam-turbine system basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator.

Russia's Sevmash shipyard at the Arctic city of Severodvinsk has completed a hybrid submarine powered by a diesel-electric plant and a small nuclear reactor. Designated B-90 and named Sarov, the submarine was completed on 17 December 2007.
The submarine is known as Project 20120 in Russian design terminology. She apparently employs the small nuclear reactor -- known to some engineers as a "teakettle" -- to keep a charge on the battery, providing essentially unlimited underwater endurance on relatively quiet electric propulsion. In effect, this is an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system.

In the near term, non-nuclear submarine powers will tilt to AIP schemes. Their proliferation is inevitable. Before the 1st quarter of this century is finished virtually all new built combat submarines will feature either AIP monopower or, at a minimum, an auxiliary AIP system. As current submarines retrun to their builders over the next decade for refirts, a substantial number of them will come bak home with some for mof AIP.

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The AIP Alternative
AIR-INDEPENDENT PROPULSION – AIP Technology Creates a New Undersea Threat
Russia Completes Hybrid Submarine
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Sjf...wBzgy#v=onepage&q=AIP%20submarine&f=false
 
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Actually you was talking about generic ssk, but turn it as you want (I wont quote your first message again).
From this page of ping-pong I can evince, friendly, that you've learned what an AIP is yesterday, you was not even aware that submarines can run on diesel while submerged, cmon'...
You know, its not a shame to admit to have learned something, I learn new things on submarines every day!
May I ask how old are you?
 
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Actually you was talking about generic ssk, but turn it as you want (I wont quote your first message again).
From this page of ping-pong I can evince, friendly, that you've learned what an AIP is yesterday, you was not even aware that submarines can run on diesel while submerged, cmon'...
You know, its not a shame to admit to have learned something, I learn new things on submarines every day!
May I ask how old are you?

I'm not turning anything. Let's face it, Dudley, AIP isn't on the vast majority of operational SSKs. It is just starting to be adopted as part of midlife refits and in new build subs. I've explained my understanding of the initial question, which explains my response quite adequately. So, go ahead and quote my first post untill you are blue in the face, if you like.

As far as my understanding of AIP is concerned, I've not studied the details of all available variants, no. Nor should I - or anyone else here - be expected to. However, I've been reading about AIP occasionally, for example in journals such a Monch's Naval Forces, which I first started buying around 1985. That should give you enough of an indication about of my age to determine I'm no pimply teenager.

Ora, I' il ll vede la vostra età e lo alza una formazione.
 
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I want to know, what kind of submarine is considered the world's most quiet ?

Yasen !
Astute !
Virginia !
Barracuda !
 
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