A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[p(-)0ENiX]

- deleted -

I hate it when posts get deleted before I get to read them. It makes me wonder what was on those posts in the first place.

 

[reformistani]

very interesting. Babur Nama is definitely on my to-do list.

 

[Armstrong]

I hate it when posts get deleted before I get to read them. It makes me wonder what was on those posts in the first place.

Something exceptionally naughty !

Nah...I just thought it better to rephrase, delete and add to what I had initially wrote !

 

[reformistani]

Dear Pakistanis,

There is definitely an identity crisis. It is the crisis of Indian obsession with Pakistani identity.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Something exceptionally naughty !

Nah...I just thought it better to rephrase, delete and add to what I had initially wrote !

Lol, I guess I am just paranoid. I had a bad experience yesterday when another member deleted his post aimed at provoking me. Thank God though, I managed to reply to him just in time.

Anyway, as long as it wasn't insults & stuff, it doesn't matter.

 

[Armstrong]

Lol, I guess I am just paranoid. I had a bad experience yesterday when another member deleted his post aimed at provoking me. Thank God though, I managed to reply to him just in time.

Anyway, as long as it wasn't insults & stuff, it doesn't matter.

Yaaaraa tujhe pichlaei page par ja ke khud pataaa chal jai ga !

 

[Neuro]

oh LORD!!!! these bloody SOUTH ASIANS and their COMPLEXES! about colour caste sect religion & what NOT!! does it matter if they were hindus before or muslims!!!! they went to their graves! how does it matter to you!!

can anyone NAME one man woman or child from IVC?????

Pasupathi simple

 

[KRAIT]

Yaaaraa tujhe pichlaei page par ja ke khud pataaa chal jai ga !

Aaj kahan bhagaya tumhe....aur kitni dooor...

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

The foOk are you lot on about ? Claims and Counter-Claims for a Long-Dead Civilization ? The Indus Valley Civilization may be Pakistani, Indian or Martian for all I care but none of the energy spent on determining that solves the major present day predicaments of Pakistan. Our ownership to or from the IVC didn't compel us to meddle in Afghanistan in the '80s or to pull off Kargil for god knows what reasons ? And the IVC sure as hell hasn't got anything to do with the widow who has to stand in line for hours at a stretch in the stifling heat of Lahore just to collect her deceased husband's pension. The day labourer who has to kill himself at work just to make ends meet doesn't give a wooden nickel about where he descends from or whether something called the IVC was Indian, Pakistani or Chinese ? The beggars in the streets, the trash-collectors who are covered in fillth, the common man who frequents the lower courts everyday for some justice for a case thats been pending for years at a stretch, the victims of honour killings and acid attacks etc. - I would assume that none of them would have the 'Origins of the IVC' very high on their priority lists !

I agree with you. There are just way too many issues to deal with in Pakistan. I get really depressed whenever I hear about the horrible stuff going on in Pakistan. The oppression of minorities & women, & the repression of science, freedom of thoughts & speech in Pakistan really haunts me. I won't blame Islam for all of this, that's because I know that Islam isn't the source of all these problems. However, religion provides the excuse to these dumb extremists to carry out their barbaric acts against innocent humans. Pakistan today is even worse off than Europe during the dark ages. At least Medieval Europe retained some of the legacy of the glorious Greco-Roman empires, & eventually, they fought off the disastrous effects of the Catholic Church.

The difference is that the Europeans will never tolerate getting oppressed, they will eventually fight back oppression. It's only a matter of time before they begin to fight against forced integration, stupid immigrants, countless & foolish accusations of racism, & blame for all the troubles in the world. Pakistanis on the other hand still haven't done much if anything to eradicate lawlessness, corruption, & the abuse of women, children, minorities, & religion. This is why some of us care so much about history, it kind off reminds us of the good times gone by. It's a reminder of the glory our ancestors had that we lost entirely. Since the only thing we can be truly proud off at the moment is the history of our ancestors, it becomes difficult to tolerate someone else claiming elements of our history.

So yaar for godsake there are bigger, better causes out there to strive for and to have a position on ! Whatever your origins, Indo-Aryan, African, Semitic or Neanderthal (God knows many are !)...you're here in 2012...so worry about that first before going on a fact finding mission back to the antiquities !

The funny thing is that I remember reading that some people in the Middle East & Europe might truly be mixed with Neanderthals. That's probably because the Neanderthals lived in parts of Europe & the Levant region of the Middle East. Don't take my word for it though, I am not a 100% certain about a few modern day humans being mixed with Neanderthals.

P.S As a student and a great lover of history I just can't help giving my two cents : To the best of my understanding, India was never One country but their cultural influence (I'd throw religion into it as well due to the unique nature of Hinduism !) was probably right upto the doors of Persia in the South West, Afghanistan and Central Asia in the North-West, some of the Outliers of China in the North and the North-East and what would become Myanmmar in the East ! That influence waned only because of subsequent foreign invasions beginning with, unless I'm mistaken, with Darius and ending with the British Conquest of India; now all of them in varying degrees left their mark on the Indian Subcontinent but none more so than the Muslim Persian/Afghan Invaders and the British because of the frequency and duration of these invasions and their tenure respectively. Having said that the present day descendants of the IVC may indeed be found in Sindh, Lower Punjab and the outlying areas of Balochistan and Khyber-Pukhtoonkhwa but culturally they have as much in common with us as the Newfoundlanders do and consequently I would give weightage to the Indian claim over the IVC as their Civilization or their Ancestors because the vast majority of Indians prescribe, in a disproportionately bigger relativity to us, to what could have been the dominant culture of the IVC !

The cultural influence of the IVC & the Aryan civilization is extremely vast. I remember reading that many of the philosophical & theological views of the ancient Aryans, Persians, & even Central Asians were extremely similar. I give much more importance to the Aryans than to the Harappans because if anyone has really had a lasting impact on us, it's the Aryans. I think that the reason the IVC is given so much importance in Pakistan is because its geographical frontiers present the idea of an independent state in the north-west of the Sub-Continent long before the creation of Pakistan. This is just my opinion, but the IVC is kind off like the Greece of the Sub-Continent & the Aryan Vedic civilization is the Roman Empire of this region. I don't mean that in terms of conquest & dominion over vast portions of land, I mean that their cultural, linguistic, genetic, architectural, & scientific influence exists till this day.

 

[Armstrong]

Aaj kahan bhagaya tumhe....aur kitni dooor...

Aaaaj chooootiiii !

 

[KRAIT]

Aaaaj chooootiiii !

....badiya....kal bhi aish karna.....

 

[Armstrong]

....badiya....kal bhi aish karna.....

Bhai woh bhi bohaat taaiz hain...saaath two 6 inch moooti filein bhi pakraa dein ke beta 'reference' kar ke lao ! Aur saaath Mondoy ko jisss client pe jaaanei hai isss ke eik last year ki 'audit procedure file' aur 'annual report' pakraa dei hai keh paarh ke aooon Monday ko jaaanei seh pehleee tumhaarai 50 marks ka Oral Test hai !

 

[KRAIT]

Bhai woh bhi bohaat taaiz hain...saaath two 6 inch moooti filein bhi pakraa dein ke beta 'reference' kar ke lao ! Aur saaath Mondoy ko jisss client pe jaaanei hai isss ke eik last year ki 'audit procedure file' aur 'annual report' pakraa dei hai keh paarh ke aooon Monday ko jaaanei seh pehleee tumhaarai 50 marks ka Oral Test hai !

...Aur main yahan soch raha tha ki meri sabse jyada marti hogi.............

 

[Joe Shearer]

The original comment was deleted by a moderator. It was too harsh, too immoderate, to be allowed to survive as a citation - Joe S.

Somehow I didn't find that funny. We may have our differences, but we don't have to wish nuclear war on anyone.

 

[The SC]

I agree with you. There are just way too many issues to deal with in Pakistan. I get really depressed whenever I hear about the horrible stuff going on in Pakistan. The oppression of minorities & women, & the repression of science, freedom of thoughts & speech in Pakistan really haunts me. I won't blame Islam for all of this, that's because I know that Islam isn't the source of all these problems. However, religion provides the excuse to these dumb extremists to carry out their barbaric acts against innocent humans. Pakistan today is even worse off than Europe during the dark ages. At least Medieval Europe retained some of the legacy of the glorious Greco-Roman empires, & eventually, they fought off the disastrous effects of the Catholic Church.

The difference is that the Europeans will never tolerate getting oppressed, they will eventually fight back oppression. It's only a matter of time before they begin to fight against forced integration, stupid immigrants, countless & foolish accusations of racism, & blame for all the troubles in the world. Pakistanis on the other hand still haven't done much if anything to eradicate lawlessness, corruption, & the abuse of women, children, minorities, & religion. This is why some of us care so much about history, it kind off reminds us of the good times gone by. It's a reminder of the glory our ancestors had that we lost entirely. Since the only thing we can be truly proud off at the moment is the history of our ancestors, it becomes difficult to tolerate someone else claiming elements of our history.



The funny thing is that I remember reading that some people in the Middle East & Europe might truly be mixed with Neanderthals. That's probably because the Neanderthals lived in parts of Europe & the Levant region of the Middle East. Don't take my word for it though, I am not a 100% certain about a few modern day humans being mixed with Neanderthals.



The cultural influence of the IVC & the Aryan civilization is extremely vast. I remember reading that many of the philosophical & theological views of the ancient Aryans, Persians, & even Central Asians were extremely similar. I give much more importance to the Aryans than to the Harappans because if anyone has really had a lasting impact on us, it's the Aryans. I think that the reason the IVC is given so much importance in Pakistan is because its geographical frontiers present the idea of an independent state in the north-west of the Sub-Continent long before the creation of Pakistan. This is just my opinion, but the IVC is kind off like the Greece of the Sub-Continent & the Aryan Vedic civilization is the Roman Empire of this region. I don't mean that in terms of conquest & dominion over vast portions of land, I mean that their cultural, linguistic, genetic, architectural, & scientific influence exists till this day.

I read what you say about Pakistan, and it sounds as if you were writing something about the USA, believe me it doesn't fare better, albeit they can exploit their natural resources better, and project an artificial image, by efficiently(deceptively) using the Media (Mass media).

Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens coexisted to an extent so being mixed is a scientific fact.