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A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

The English word "you' can be used as singular OR plural....
Here by saying "you", I wasn't referring to you individually....I used it in a Plural sense...

I don't care, I know that it can be used in the plural sense. Go read your post again, even a fool can tell you were addressing it to me.

Ha Ha....how can you kill your own forefather.......you didn't get my logic as you thought I was referring to you individually...

Well technically an individual could kill his family, but that would be moronic. I understood your point of view, but in anger I did not bother to give a good response. The point is that we never "snatched" the heritage of some other people. We only intend to "claim" the heritage of our own ancestors alone.

What I tried to explain was......

Firstly, IF you claim to be descendants of the IVC people then you have to keep in mind that the followers of the religion you are following killed your non-Muslim ancestors....
Now, everyone cannot be killed.....your ancestor might have been among the lucky ones escaped.....this explains your existence....

Are you implying that most if not all Pakistanis are the descendants of those who escaped? My ancestors were never subjugated by anyone. Conquests & wars occurred very often in the past, it was just how life was at that time. All nations win & lose wars, it's nothing to be ashamed off.

Secondly, IF you DO NOT claim to be descendants of the IVC people, then your ancestors(Persians, Moghuls etc) were directly involved in killing the IVC people.......this again explains your existence....

Either way, you cannot claim the achievements of IVC.....
In the First case...you have adopted a religion whose followers killed your ancestors and destroyed IVC.....
In the Second case....you ancestors were among the killers of the IVC people...

P.S: all 'you' and 'your' used above are in PLURAL sense.......

Some of us our the descendants of the people of the IVC, many of us our the descendants of the Indo-Aryans & the Indo-Iranians. We both know that very few Pakistanis descend from Arabs, Persians, or Mughals.

I realize that the original article was obsessed with the IVC, but I am talking about Pakistanis being proud of all aspects of their heritage. This includes the Indo-Aryan & Indo-Iranian heritage as well.

All of you are obsessed with our religious beliefs. SO WHAT IF WE BELIEVE IN ANOTHER RELIGION? HOW THE F_CK DOES IT MEAN THAT WE HAVE NO CLAIM OVER OUR HERITAGE?

That's not true.

Who are Urdu's creators & original speakers then? It doesn't really matter anyway. Many people have adopted English as their own language, thus people can adopt Urdu as their own too. The provincial languages are still present though, & they belong to no one besides us for the most part.

**********​

Anyway, I am sick of this discussion at the moment. The arguments in this thread have been going on for hours now.

Urdu does belong mostly to Indian Muslims mostly from the UP/Bihar/Delhi area, what you guys call Mohajirs in your country. Bangladeshis had Bengali, Pakistanis had Punjabi/Sindhi/Pashto/Balochi.

What were the people of those areas speaking before Urdu?
 
Half of European men share King Tut's DNA

London: Up to 70 per cent of British men and half of all Western European men are related to the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun, geneticists in Switzerland said.

Scientists at Zurich-based DNA genealogy centre, iGENEA, reconstructed the DNA profile of the boy Pharaoh, who ascended the throne at the age of nine, his father Akhenaten and grandfather Amenhotep III, based on a film that was made for the Discovery Channel.

The results showed that King Tut belonged to a genetic profile group, known as haplogroup R1b1a2, to which more than 50 percent of all men in Western Europe belong, indicating that they share a common ancestor.

gulfnews : Half of European men share King Tut's DNA
 
[video]http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/07/book-review-getting-even-gloomier-about.html[/video]

Ajai Shukla's Book Review of Aparna Pande's "Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India"


Aparna Pande’s excellent book, Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India, is a must read for Indian travellers to Pakistan who tend to gush to the locals, “You know, this is just like India, we don’t feel like we’ve come to another country”, and then feel perplexed by the Lahori’s cold response. Secure in our millennia-old identity, few of us Indians are aware of Pakistan’s quest for an identity; the logic of its “anti-India” worldview; and the many fictions that our neighbour has embraced in answering that simplest of questions: “who am I?”

I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.”:lol: He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

Pande’s book explores how and why Pakistan repudiates its history. For this, you have to pay Rs 6,750/- for a slim, handsome volume that is a part of Routledge’s Contemporary South Asia series. But that daunting amount buys you a carefully researched historical analysis that traces the crafting of our neighbour’s national identity, from the time that the Muslim League convinced itself that a nation could be constructed on the basis of a shared religious identity, with Islam substituting for nationalism. Such an identity, Pakistan’s leaders felt, was as central to the new state’s survival as the armed defence of its physical borders. Any ideological frontier naturally requires an ideological “other”, Pande argues, which for Pakistan has always been a malevolent “Hindu” India, epitomised by the crafty Hindu bania. Such a worldview permeates through Pakistani society, being propagated through a “Pakistan Studies” curriculum at all levels of schooling.

Pande deconstructs Pakistan’s pan-Islamic ideology (it was the world’s first Islamic Republic), which it sustained with difficulty even through Cold War alliances with the “anti-Islamic” west. Saudi Arabia described Pakistan’s 1954 entry into the US-led Baghdad Pact as “a stab in the heart of the Arab and Muslim states,” while Islamabad’s pro-west stance during the 1956 Suez Crisis seriously damaged relations with Egypt. Meanwhile Nehru’s stock remained high across much of West Asia, so Pakistan could cite Islamic solidarity mainly in its relations with Turkey and Iran.

But Islamabad continued to play the pan-Islamic card, irritating old civilisations like Egypt by lecturing them about religion as the predominant marker of identity. Pande quotes Egypt’s King Farouk’s acid observation that “Pakistanis believed that Islam was born on August 14, 1947.”

The author highlights Pakistan’s contortions in reconciling pan-Islamism with its friendship with Communist China. Even in 1956, Prime Minister Suhrawardy was saying, “I feel perfectly certain that when the crucial time comes, China will come to our assistance.” Pakistan’s vocal advocacy for the rights of Muslim minorities anywhere does not extend to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, who Beijing has long persecuted as separatists and supporters of terrorism. At successive meetings of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), Pakistan has dissuaded fellow Muslim countries from tabling a resolution on the Uyghur issue, even while raising the issue of Kashmir and allegations of persecution of the Muslim minority in India.

Too many Indians, especially policymakers, deal with Pakistan as if it were a normal country that makes rational calculations to materially benefit its people, rather than a confused, ideological hybrid for whom confronting the “other” remains the primary buttress of a shaky national identity. Too often, Pakistan’s unshakeable opposition to India is laid at the army’s doorstep, based on the simplistic conclusion that peace does not suit the generals. Pande’s dense but readable book leaves the reader with the gloomy conclusion that anti-Indianism runs much deeper, flowing along the roots and branches of an artificial and ill-conceived national identity.
 
What were the people of those areas speaking before Urdu?

As we Indians have pointed out many times that Urdu is based on Khadiboli of Uttar Pradesh. Khadiboli originated from Shaurseni Prakrit.
 
As we Indians have pointed out many times that Urdu is based on Khadiboli of Uttar Pradesh. Khadiboli originated from Shaurseni Prakrit.

I don't care about what it is based on. Who spoke the language before? Which ethnicity did it evolve among? Who are the first & original speakers of the Urdu language?
 
I don't care about what it is based on. Who spoke the language before? Which ethnicity did it evolve among? Who are the first & original speakers of the Urdu language?

Your question sounds like, "who were the original speakers of Punjabis 2000 years ago."
 
Your question sounds like, "who were the original speakers of Punjabis 2000 years ago."

That was not my question. Don't divert the subject, I don't think Punjabi existed at that time, but it naturally evolved among Punjabis from Prakit.

Now tell me, does this language have any native ethnic speakers? Are the people of Uttar Pradesh an ethnicity? I don't know much about those people.

In any case as stated earlier, a language could have roots in any part of the world, but it can be adopted by a people as their own. That does not mean that those people have a 100% claim over it, but it does mean that they can consider it their own tongue to an extent.

The Arabic language for example is only native to Arabia itself for the most part. Aren't modern day North Africans allowed to call it their own language, even though it didn't evolve there?
 
That was not my question. Don't divert the subject, I don't think Punjabi existed at that time, but it naturally evolved among Punjabis from Prakit.

Now tell me, does this language have any native ethnic speakers? Are the people of Uttar Pradesh an ethnicity? I don't know much about those people.

In any case as stated earlier, a language could have roots in any part of the world, but it can be adopted by a people as their own. That does not mean that those people have a 100% claim over it, but it does mean that they can consider it their own tongue to an extent.

The Arabic language for example is only native to Arabia itself for the most part. Aren't modern day North Africans allowed to call it their own language, even though it didn't evolve there?

Yes, the Muslims of those areas are the native speakers, do Muhajirs of Pakistan speak any other language apart from Urdu. In our national census Muslims of Delhi or UP register Urdu as mother tongue, I know many of them.
Have you heard of the word language evolution. Urdu evolved from Khadiboli with evolved from Shaurseni Prakrit.
 
Yes, the Muslims of those areas are the native speakers, do Muhajirs of Pakistan speak any other language apart from Urdu. In our national census Muslims of Delhi or UP register Urdu as mother tongue, I know many of them.
Have you heard of the word language evolution. Urdu evolved from Khadiboli with evolved from Shaurseni Prakrit.

The important point is that "Muslims" aren't a race. They are a group of people sharing the same beliefs. I know of language evolution obviously, & both Hindi & Urdu evolved from "Khariboli" right? So are the Muhajirs of Pakistan from Uttar Pradesh? I thought they migrated from many regions of present day India.

So, Urdu was referred to as the language of the Muslims & Hindi was for the Hindus? Is that what you are implying? Based on that since Muslims aren't a race but followers of a religion, all Muslims in the Sub-Continent would have some claim over Urdu. Even if they can't claim it as their own a 100%.

What about the North Africans, is Arabic their language even though Arabic didn't evolve in their land?
 
The important point is that "Muslims" aren't a race. They are a group of people sharing the same beliefs. I know of language evolution obviously, & both Hindi & Urdu evolved from "Khariboli" right? So are the Muhajirs of Pakistan from Uttar Pradesh? I thought they migrated from many regions of present day India.

So, Urdu was referred to as the language of the Muslims & Hindi was for the Hindus? Is that what you are implying? Based on that since Muslims aren't a race but followers of a religion, all Muslims in the Sub-Continent would have some claim over Urdu. Even if they can't claim it as their own a 100%.

The dispute was over vocabulary, lingua franca is still the same. It was the dispute of Hindus or Muslims of North India, did you ever saw such dispute among Sindhis or Bengalis or Punjabis(except Gurumukhi vs Shahmukhi).

How come Muslims of UP or Delhi preferring Urdu and Hindus Hindi made Urdu the language of Punjabis Muslims or Bengali Muslims or Tamil Muslims.

You had your own choice with Sikhs over Shakmukhi Script doesn't mean that West Punjabi and poems of Bulleh Shah became heritage of all Muslims of subcontinent.


What about the North Africans, is Arabic their language even though Arabic didn't evolve in their land?

The Arab invaders forced the people to disown their own language like Coptic or Tamazhiq and start speaking Arabic.
 
...The Arab invaders forced the people to disown their own language like Coptic or Tamazhiq and start speaking Arabic.
Would today if you didn't know English, you learn it yourself or should I just assume the Americans are forcing you to disown your native language?

Coptic and Tamazight underwent in about 500 years while you haven't seen india 500 years in the future, that's the only difference.
 
I asked once in this forum why u have named ur missiles the invaders of Pakistan .one Pakistani said they are ivc and Mughals. Indus valley people migrated to Mongolia and took a break and then came back to Pakistan.:devil:
 
Would today if you didn't know English, you learn it yourself or should I just assume the Americans are forcing you to disown your native language?

Coptic and Tamazight underwent in about 500 years while you haven't seen india 500 years in the future, that's the only difference.

Maybe but these people started speaking Pidgin form of Arabic. I heard that some regional form of Arabic like Libyan Arabic is mutually unintelligible with Standard Arabic of Saudi Arabia.
 
Maybe but these people started speaking Pidgin form of Arabic. I heard that some regional form of Arabic like Libyan Arabic is mutually unintelligible with Standard Arabic of Saudi Arabia.
LOL at "Standard Arabic of Saudi Arabia"...how long has Arabia been Saudi?! Modern Standard Arabic isn't even spoken colloquially in the Arabian peninsula. True that many Arabic dialectics have parts that are mutually unintelligible. So they speak whatever dialect they speak, and learn MSA at school. It's a non-issue for us because Arabic-speakers don't make an issue out of it.
 
[video]http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/07/book-review-getting-even-gloomier-about.html[/video]

Ajai Shukla's Book Review of Aparna Pande's "Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India"

Seems like Mr Panday is a biased old fool who adds "indian masala" to sell his shyt of a book... i wonder how many such "fake" peopl you have seen on PDF... Talk abt proud punjabis,sindhis,pashtuns,baluch,kashmiri,gilgitis we all are present here on PDF to slap fools to reality who are fed such nonsense..

I asked once in this forum why u have named ur missiles the invaders of Pakistan .one Pakistani said they are ivc and Mughals. Indus valley people migrated to Mongolia and took a break and then came back to Pakistan.:devil:

We have more ethnic pashtuns Pakistanis than the entire population of afghanistan... most of these afghan kings are also buried in Pakistan... so who are you to tell us what to do and what not too? though i would like more missiles to be named after punjabi and sindhi kings or warriors aswell.... coz they also have their unique ethnic identity just like any ethnic group....






Pakistan Zindabad.
 
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