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A Multicore Processor Designed For PetaFLOPS Computation

If you're talking chipsets then even India has the tech to manufacture them. You guys don't have the capability to fab processors, hence the argument.

AMEC isn't Chinese, not even Taiwanese. If you're talking foreign foundries in China, then even Intel has one in Dalian, somewhere near Beijing if I recall correctly.

The semiconductor tech path is as so:

Processor wafers (US,Japan/rip-offs thereof) > Memory wafers (Korea,Taiwan,UK,France,Italy/rip-offs thereof) > Chipset wafers (everyone else)

*Russian and Israel military processors are simply American-modded ones.

You can't really ask chipset fabs to produce processors. And seriously, you can clearly spot the circuits on your motherboard, but try cracking up a CPU and you won't see the lines, unless you scrutinize it under a magnifying glass.

In any case, SMIC's fabs under ToT from TSMC, which in turn fabs under ToT from the US. It really isn't Chinese at all.


india is not in china's league in semiconductor. don't bring india in discussion.

AMEC is a chinese registered company with all R&D and manufacturing operations in china, no where else.
the company was founded by bunch of overseas chinese who had many many years work experience with applied materials inc.

SMIC is also another chinese fab that started the same way.

the early version of godson cpu was produced by SMIC using 180 nm process, then contract went to more advanced 90-65 nm foreign..
SMIC just recently got a couple 300-mm fabs running..new generation godson-cpu is aiming for 20 nm or beyond..i see SMIC loosing contract again. maybe AMEC can help them?

TSMC, UMC and many others using advanced etching tools from AMEC. does that mean they aren't taiwanese?
 
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india is not in china's league in semiconductor. don't bring india in discussion.

AMEC is a chinese registered company with all R&D and manufacturing operations in china, no where else.
the company was founded by bunch of overseas chinese who had many many years work experience with applied materials inc.

SMIC is also another chinese fab that started the same way.

the early version of godson cpu was produced by SMIC using 180 nm process, then contract went to more advanced 90-65 nm foreign..
SMIC just recently got a couple 300-mm fabs running..new generation godson-cpu is aiming for 20 nm or beyond..i see SMIC loosing contract again. maybe AMEC can help them?

TSMC, UMC and many others using advanced etching tools from AMEC. does that mean they aren't taiwanese?

Man... you don't produce CPU by "etching;" it's produced through jell solidification. In any case, AMEC is a equipment manufacture but there's no evidence of it making equipment to fab processors.

And please SMIC lives under ToT from TSMC. They even got into court because SMIC was violating the terms... And Taiwan is the 4th most advanced wafer manufacturer in the world. Let alone "etching" you guys can't even match them in wafers. They just opened a 300mm foundry in Shanghai if that's the one you're talking about.
 
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If you're talking chipsets then even India has the tech to manufacture them. You guys don't have the capability to fab processors, hence the argument.

india is not in china's league in semiconductor. don't bring india in discussion.

India also makes its own processors for defence but not produces them for commercial level.

World's semiconductor market dominated by US, Korea, Japan and Taiwan.
 
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And please SMIC lives under ToT from TSMC. They even got into court because SMIC was violating the terms... And Taiwan is the 4th most advanced wafer manufacturer in the world. Let alone "etching" you guys can't even match them in wafers. They just opened a 300mm foundry in Shanghai if that's the one you're talking about.

taiwan's law doesn't allowed export of <=100 nm fab tool to china. that depute they had with TSMC was ancient..

SMIC sold 90 nm process to elpida (japan) and israeli company not long ago. they've just finished building new plant capable of 45 nm with help from IBM.

Man... you don't produce CPU by "etching;" it's produced through jell solidification. In any case, AMEC is a equipment manufacture but there's no evidence of it making equipment to fab processors.

you're talking about chemical vapor deposition (CVD), ALD..which AMEC specialize in.

plasma etching and CVD are two most vital steps in chip fabrication right now and in future..applied materials is king and we know where AMEC originally from..lo
 
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*ttp://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=9C8BF1D2-1A64-6A71-CE30648398885158

Patrick Thibodeau
30.11.2010 kl 11:14 | Computerworld (US)
...

China has launched an aggressive supercomputing development schedule, according to slides from a presentation made by an official at the Supercomputing Center of Chinese Academy of Sciences at an exascale conference in October.

From 2011-2015, China wants to build at least one system capable of 50 to 100 petaflops. The U.S. plans to launch at least two 20-petaflop systems in 2012 , one at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the other at Lawrence Livermore National Lab.

China has set a target of 2016 to 2020 for its first exascale system (an exaflop is thousands times faster than a petaflop). The U.S. has approved funding for initial steps in exascal funding, but has not set aside funding for vendors to begin working with scientists on systems development.

China, like other countries, will be using its supercomputing capability for scientific research, such as sandstorm prediction, climate models, but also military uses.

One slide that was part of the Chinese academy presentation shows a jet plane and military ship, and says the system is being used for "stealth design of airplanes," and RCS, which may represent Radar Countermeasures System.

This slide, from an academy presentation, illustrates electromagnetic scattering, part of the science behind development of stealth aircraft..

..................................................
 
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screenshots from that conference..

hpccn2.jpg


hpccn.jpg
 
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Qwerrty, you should know that ao333 is a troll on China's semiconductor capability. There is an earlier thread from many months ago where he trolled me on China's semiconductor design and production capability.

I suggest that you ignore (i.e. don't feed) the troll. It'll save you a lot of aggravation.

Best regards,

Martin
 
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plasma etching and CVD are two most vital steps in chip fabrication right now and in future..applied materials is king and we know where AMEC originally from..lo

Again, you don't produce CPUs from etching. It goes back to my argument that it's reserved for intergrated circuits (THINK CHIPS; THINK SOMETHING THAT'S BIGGER THAN CPU)... Deposition is the only way to produce advanced processors like Athlon. Let alone fabs, Chinese designs are still 10 years behind commercially marketed American processors. You guys have yet to fab an Intel 486, which was cold war tech. I know, because there was a scandal at Fudan University in Shanghai 4 years ago. They scrubbed the Intel trademark off of a 80486 and presented it to the 863 project management director. It was one of the biggest tech scandal of the decade. It really gave the West an ill image of China.

Qwerrty, you should know that ao333 is a troll on China's semiconductor capability. There is an earlier thread from many months ago where he trolled me on China's semiconductor design and production capability.

I suggest that you ignore (i.e. don't feed) the troll. It'll save you a lot of aggravation.

Best regards,

Martin

I'm not here to troll. I'm here to inform the uninformed that China is not even marginally competitive in the global semiconductor industry.

India also makes its own processors for defence but not produces them for commercial level.

World's semiconductor market dominated by US, Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

Military processors are not "produced" by neither Russia, China nor India. They are high peformance processors smuggled from the United States or Japan which are then reprogramed with a different instruction set to ensure compatibility and security to carry out specific military functions. No one can fab military-grade processors other than the US and Japan.
 
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I am not good at this area at all. As far as I know the current pecking order of global semiconductor industry is 1.US 2 . Japan 3. Taiwan 4 Korea, then others. (where is germany in the picture? )- it&#180;s precisely according to the order of when each stated its industrialisation . taiwan and korea, china falling behind is because they have started in the semiconductor industry much later than japan who was all over semiconductor industry right after WWII.

So it&#180;s natural. In this sense, acutally I think AO333 is not trolling here.

To destroy that pecking order, I think one must show

1. the later-starter such as China have much more related R&D and better human resources / world class schientists than others (potentialy more patents), and/or

2 some breakthrus in the related fundamental research realised or ongoing, and /or

3. China is able to attract / has succesully attracted ethnic Chinese in the US in the field to work for CHinese companies, such as what Querrty argued in cases like AMEC... (are you sure? I thought the US and the west still have an embargo on against China for not allowing exporting chip smaller than certain nm size.)

Otherwise, AO333&#180;s conclusion still stands that US and Japan lead the peck with considerable edges.

Please guys, I mean all, keep arguing as I really like to know what&#180;s going on in the industry, and what&#180;s China&#180;s current pos and pos in the next 10 years, for example in what sizes of chips able to make :cheers:
 
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We're not talking about an Ipod assembly line here...

Still don't think that he's a troll? His message is that China (and Taiwan) can't design processors. That's baloney.

China builds a petaflop computer with China-made chips and the troll claims that China is way behind everyone else in computer microprocessor design. That is an anti-China position. It is not logical or rational. Hence, my claim that he is a troll stands.

China's first petaflop supercomputer to be fully assembled in late August

chinatianh31petaflopsup.jpg

"Technician tests Tianhe-1 (TH-1) supercomputer at north China's Tianjin, Dec. 25, 2009. The supercomputer, named Tianhe (meaning Milky Way), is theoretically able to do more than 1 quadrillion calculations per second at peak speed, which was already partly installed in Tianjin." (Source: Xinhua)

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90...81/6913155.html

"China's fastest supercomputer to have China-made chips
10:01, March 09, 2010

China's fastest supercomputer "Tianhe-1," ("Tianhe" meaning Milky Way), is to be equipped this year with China-made central processing unit (CPU) chips, replacing the only part of the computer that is currently imported.

Zhang Yulin, president of the National University of Defense Technology (NUDT) which developed the computer, told Xinhua Monday that the chips, also developed by the NUDT, are customized for this supercomputer.

"The new CPUs will greatly raise the peak speed and computing efficiency of 'Tianhe-1'," Zhang said on the sidelines of the annual session of the National People's Congress, the country's top legislature now meeting in Beijing.

"Tianhe-1," unveiled in October last year, could rival the world's most powerful computers. Theoretically, it is capable of more than one quadrillion calculations per second when operating at peak speed.

Experts note that one day's task for "Tianhe-1" might take 160 years for a mainstream dual-core personal computer to complete."
 
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Still don't think that he's a troll? His message is that China (and Taiwan) can't design processors. That's baloney.

China's first petaflop supercomputer to be fully assembled in late August

chinatianh31petaflopsup.jpg

"Technician tests Tianhe-1 (TH-1) supercomputer at north China's Tianjin, Dec. 25, 2009. The supercomputer, named Tianhe (meaning Milky Way), is theoretically able to do more than 1 quadrillion calculations per second at peak speed, which was already partly installed in Tianjin." (Source: Xinhua)

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90...81/6913155.html

"China's fastest supercomputer to have China-made chips
10:01, March 09, 2010

China's fastest supercomputer "Tianhe-1," ("Tianhe" meaning Milky Way), is to be equipped this year with China-made central processing unit (CPU) chips, replacing the only part of the computer that is currently imported.

Zhang Yulin, president of the National University of Defense Technology (NUDT) which developed the computer, told Xinhua Monday that the chips, also developed by the NUDT, are customized for this supercomputer.

"The new CPUs will greatly raise the peak speed and computing efficiency of 'Tianhe-1'," Zhang said on the sidelines of the annual session of the National People's Congress, the country's top legislature now meeting in Beijing.

"Tianhe-1," unveiled in October last year, could rival the world's most powerful computers. Theoretically, it is capable of more than one quadrillion calculations per second when operating at peak speed.

Experts note that one day's task for "Tianhe-1" might take 160 years for a mainstream dual-core personal computer to complete."

Get this into your head:

China's processor design is a decade behind the US
China's fabs are 3 decades behind the US.

Conclusion?

Chinese designed CPUs will be used in servers and portable devices.
No Chinese fabbed CPU will be commercially viable for another 20 years.
 
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Get this into your head:

China's processor design is a decade behind the US
China's fabs are 3 decades behind the US.

Conclusion? Chinese designed CPUs will be used in server and portable devices. And Chinese fabbed CPUs won't exist for another 20 years.

Your claims are ridiculous. The first U.S. petaflop computer was built in 2008 (see IBM Roadrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). You're claiming that China's domestically-built petaflop computer design is ten years behind the U.S.?

Can you do simple math? 2010 - 2008 = 2 years. U.S. was not capable of building a petaflop computer ten years ago. I'm not wasting any more time on a troll that claims "China is soooo far behind" and pulls numbers out of thin air (e.g. China is ten to 20 years behind).
 
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Your claims are ridiculous. The first U.S. petaflop computer was built in 2008 (see IBM Roadrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). You're claiming that China's domestically-built petaflop computer design is ten years behind the U.S.?

Can you do simple math? 2010 - 2008 = 2 years. U.S. was not capable of building a petaflop computer ten years ago. I'm not wasting any more time on a troll that claims "China is soooo far behind" and pulls numbers out of thin air (e.g. China is ten to 20 years behind).

Supercomputers and processors are different.
 
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Supercomputers and processors are different.

You are showing your ignorance. Modern supercomputers are built by networking personal computer microprocessors and developing specialized software to coordinate the different processors to accomplish petaflop computing.

Designing a chip that is only 30&#37; slower than Intel's best chip (see article below) does not equate to a 10 or 30 year lag in computer chip design. Out of ignorance, you made up that number.

Technology Review
Published by MIT

"Chinese Chip Closes In on Intel, AMD

China may finally have a processor to power a homegrown supercomputer.


* Thursday, October 21, 2010
* By Christopher Mims

chinalemoteloongsonx220.jpg

Chip challenger: Lemote is one of a handful of companies manufacturing Loongson-powered Netbooks, mostly for the Chinese market.
Credit: Credit: c.j.b / Flickr

At this year's Hot Chips conference at Stanford University, Weiwu Hu, the lead architect of the "national processor" of China, revealed three new chip designs. One of them could enable China to build a homegrown supercomputer to rank in a prestigious list of the world's fastest machines.

The Loongson processor family (known in China by the name Godson), is now in its sixth generation. The latest designs consist of the one-gigahertz, eight-core Godson 3B, the more powerful 16-core, Godson 3C (with a speed that is currently unknown), and the smaller, lower-power one-gigahertz Godson 2H, intended for netbooks and other mobile devices. The Godson 3B will be commercially available in 2011, as will the Godson 2H, but the Godson 3C won't debut until 2012.

According to Tom Halfhill, industry analyst and editor of Microprocessor Report, the eight-core Godson 3B will still be significantly less powerful than Intel's best chip, the six-core Xeon processor. It will be able to perform roughly 30 percent fewer mathematical calculations per second. Intel's forthcoming Sandy Bridge processor and AMD's Bulldozer processor will widen the gap between chips designed by American companies and the Godson 3B.

However, China's chip-making capabilities are improving quickly. Intel's Xeon processor uses a 32-nanometer process (meaning the smallest components can be formed on this scale), while the Godson 3B uses 65 nanometers, leading to significantly slower processing speeds. But the Godson 3C processor will leapfrog current technology by using a 28-nanometer process, although this will only increase its clock speed by about a factor of two, estimates Halfhill. With its eight additional cores, this should make the 3C about four times as fast as the Godson 3B.

Hu, lead architect of the Godson project, said via e-mail that China's Dawning 6000 supercomputer, originally slated for completion in mid-2010, will instead debut in 2011, using the Godson 3B. Halfhill calculates that the Dawning supercomputer will use CPUs that are slower than fastest Intel chips. However, it could still rank on the Top 500 list of the 500 fastest supercomputers in the world--a significant coup for China's fledgling electronics industry. "Just getting into the Top 500 with a native processor is a worthy accomplishment," says Halfhill.

The Loongson processor is based on the MIPS instruction set, the basic commands that a microprocessor understands. In contrast, Intel and AMD processors are based on the x86 instruction set. Engineers at China's Institute of Computing Technology (ICT) have added more than 300 instructions to the MIPS instruction set in the latest generation of the Loongson processor, and most are devoted to vector processing, a technique for processing data in parallel that can speed operations like graphics and scientific processing. The Dawning 6000 would mark the first time a MIPS-based supercomputer has appeared in the Top 500 list since 2004.

The ongoing development of the Loongson processor family is good news for Stanford-based MIPS Technologies, which licenses the MIPS instruction set and competes with the x86, ARM, and IBM Power architectures. "It's our view that the ICT team and the MIPS instruction set are in a leading position for the [Chinese] government-driven national processor effort," says Art Swift, vice president of marketing at MIPS.

At the low end of the Godson family of processors, the new 2H chip is an incremental improvement compared to previous chips in the Godson 2 series, says Halfhill. According to Hu, the chip is designed for netbooks, other mobile devices, low-powered PCs and embedded systems.

An important factor for the Godson 2 series has been the porting of Google's Android operating system (used in smart phones, and in some tablets and netbooks) to the MIPS instruction set, says Swift, who adds that ICT engineers were very active in that effort. "The uptake of Android in China was phenomenal; they were way ahead of everyone else, and the whole rest of the field has followed," Swift says.

Hu has emphasized in the past that a primary goal of ICT's "national processor" effort is the creation of an affordable chip that can help bring China out of the industrial age and into the information age.

"I think what they're really after is a national processor that is broadly used and displaces the Intel monopoly," says Swift.

Displacing the Intel monopoly does not necessarily mean displacing the Windows monopoly, however. Despite ICT's emphasis on Android and open-source software, the Loongson family includes many instructions designed to speed up emulation of the x86 instruction set, and the Microsoft architecture team attended Hu's presentation at Hot Chips, according to Swift. "I wouldn't rule out this being a great Windows processor at some point," he says.

The Loongson family of processors may, however, face a fundamental challenge to its ability to compete with other architectures in terms of performance.

The Godson processor appears to have been designed primarily with automated circuit design tools, which is common throughout the microprocessor industry, but the processor has not been manually tweaked by engineers, which is not. This could mean unnecessary bottlenecks in the flow of data through the processor. "That's always been a puzzle to me," says Halfhill. "It's not like there is a shortage of circuit designers in China."

One of the most unexpected surprises of the Hot Chips presentation was the acknowledgement that if ICT's current fabrication partner, STMicro, is unable to produce the Godson 3C in a 28-nanometer process by 2011, production could be moved to the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. Historically, China and Taiwan have had chilly political relations even as their economic interdependence has increased.

Government support for ICT's national processor project was reaffirmed Monday when it was announced that the chip will be part of the country's 12th Five-Year Plan. If the Godson 3B shows up in a supercomputer by 2011, it will be an important milestone in China's billion-dollar effort to cultivate a homegrown CPU."
 
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