A Meeting on Christmas Night Dacca, 25 Dec 1962

[Mage]

you can believe what suits you, but don't force your propaganda on me.

At a point when the streets of Dhaka became a hot bed of turmoil, Sergeant Zahurul Haq, 17th accused in the case, was mercilessly shot to death while in confinement in Dhaka Cantonment. The news of his death led a furious mob to set fire to the State Guest House as well as other buildings. S.A Rahman, Chairman of the tribunal, and Manzur Quader, chief lawyer on the government side, who were then residing in the guest house, evacuated secretly. Some of the files concerning the case were burnt to ashes. In the face of the mass movement, the Ayub government was ultimately compelled to withdraw the Agartala Conspiracy Case on 22 February 1969. All the accused, including Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, were released unconditionally. On the following day (23 February), a grand public reception was accorded to the accused at Paltan Maidan in Dhaka where Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was vested with the appellation of 'Bangabandhu'.

http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Agartala_Conspiracy_Case

What's the law of Pakistan? Innocent until proven guilty right? Which means Agartala base a base less accusation. Thus Mujib and others were released unconditionally.

Nothing can be farthest from the truth than claiming that the architect of independent Bangladesh Sheikh Mujib did not want the country’s independence or that Bangladesh’s independence was declared by anybody other than the great leader himself, the secretary said, warning that any such misadventure from Pakistan or for that matter any quarters in Pakistan would threaten normal ties.

The Pakistan high commissioner was reminded that Bangabandhu’s historic speech delivered on March 7, 1971 in which the statement “The struggle this time is the struggle for our freedom, the struggle this time is the struggle for our independence” bears testimony to his intention for Bangladesh’s independence. He was also reminded that Bangladesh’s long freedom movement culminated in the declaration of independence by Bangabandhu on March 26, 1971 and Pakistan’s subsequent surrender in Dhaka on December 16, 1971.

http://www.dhakatribune.com/banglad.../10/31/zia-declared-bangladeshs-independence/

This should clear your misconception about Mr. Mujib and about his loyalty with Pakistan.

I know our history.
Mujib did indeed say this on 7th March.

“The struggle this time is the struggle for our freedom, the struggle this time is the struggle for our independence”

He also finished his speech by saying "Pakistan Zindabad". Freedom doesn't necessarily mean breaking away from Pakistan. Independence doesn't always mean that either. Otherwise why do we celebrate 26th March as the independence day instead of 7th March? Mujib wanted autonomy for East Pakistan. Which was in his 6 point he proposed. And he said if he came to power he would implement it. Which was unacceptable to you guys. Instead of blaming Mujib, try to understand what kind of situation possibly could make a patriot like him give a speech like that.

They did wrong, absolutely wrong denying Mr Mujib to form a Govt . No one here is justifying their wrong doing. What they did was absolutely wrong .

But they being wrong , Mr Mujib , a true patriot according to you , turned to a traitor for Pakistan by taking help from Indians against Pakistan.

Mujib did not take help from India. You can not show a single fact. Other than baseless theories.
You can't wrong us again and again and expect that we will simply accept that. Life of Bengalis may not matter to you, but it does matter to us.
I would ask you to read this post by former Mod @Oscar to understand how things went on in Pakistan. Same thing is going on today in Pakistan and in a way in Bangladesh as well.

It is sad..
That the man who was marked by Jinnah for early retirement or essentially to be kicked out of the Pakistan Army.. assumed its helm using devious and cunning and kept it for ten years.. ruining it in the process.
That this man.. who on written testaments by his british superiors in Burma during WWII.. deserted his positions and refused to lead his men into battle.. Led the nation into suicide in 65.. showed pure racist hatred against Bengali's and other less fair races.. ..and then had the audacity to write in his book that he "would not preside over the destruction of Quaid's Pakistan"..(rather let Yahya khan do it).

Those that truly supported Pakistan..believed in it.. were sidelined.. and people like Liaqat Ali Khan...about whom Fatima Jinnah narrates that he came to see how long the Quaid had left.. took power..
Businessmen.. racially and financially motivated opportunists took over Pakistan right after the Quaid died..

And the people arent all innocent either.. falling prey to such blatant lies.. believing in such leaders...led to 71.
Where when the IN has attacked Karachi harbor.. and the fuel tanks in manora were aflame..the Naval chief who was drunk beyond limits.. remarks to his son.."WHat A lovely bonfire!!"..
When the IA was advancing towards Dhaka..
Gen Niazi was busy in orgies.. and did not wish to hear reports on the frontline.

Even further back.. in 67..when Bengali intellectuals had begun to ask openly questions about the biased treatment against them.. instead of hearing them out.. they where declared traitors.

Was not any love between the west and the east?.. could there have been?
Had the people and not the politicians met.. things might have been different.
But even today.. its the same all around.. in our country..
Calls of "jaag Punjabi jaag"..."Pakistan na Khappay".. and the certificates for being a Muslim..
There a lot to be learned from 71.. unfortunately.. the only ones that learnt anything are the Bengali's and the Indians..

It was not before 25th March , but look at the article in which your own Govt rep said that Mr Mujib on 7th March talked about the independence of Bangal from Pakistan. That was the reason he was put in Jail.

No. You are totally wrong. Mujib was arrested in 25th March. After 7th March Yahya wanted to do some negotiation with Mujib which was a deception. What he was doing was stalling for time. In the meantime you guys started to bring Armies from the West and preparing for operation searchlight. Yahya left without a notice in 25th March. Mujib was arrested. and Killings began, How do you justify this?

Your firm and grounded belief is that this kind of thing can be argued out reasonably. It can't. The whole question of belief in Pakistan is grounded immovably in the development of a concept of Pakistan by the deep state elite, and this is not subject to questioning by anyone else; those who question it are known as 'liberal' terrorists. In Pakistan, in India and even in Bangladesh, 'liberal' is a word of abuse. It indicates that those individuals or groups are not as fanatically dedicated to that particular nation-state as they might possibly be. Only the maximum is acceptable; generally believing in the state is not enough. You must worship the state as the hyper-patriot does: there are different models in the three different nations, in India, the prevalent model today is the extreme model that is being evolved by the BJP under the influence of the RSS, but there are similar models in Pakistan and in Bangladesh as well. Bottom line is that you must not question authority: the authority of the state is reflected in the authority of the government, something completely different, and the authority of the government is reflected in the authority of the political party in charge, and finally the authority of the political party in charge is reflected in the leadership of the political party. In other words, as a famous sycophant once said, 'India is Indira, Indira is India', or the functional equivalent.

So here you cannot argue with a Pakistani patriot who says that Mujib was conspiring against the state of Pakistan. Not because you don't have logic and reason on your side, you most probably do, but because you will be asked who needs logic and reason, when there is this conviction of being right? The conviction, the faith is good enough; nothing else is needed. When you argue that Mujib had no time to conspire, you will get in return a disbelieving stare: the national line is that he did, so what else do you want?

Well, I myself am a liberal, not on economy though. And yeah, I don't like the way present govt trying to elevate Mujib's status to demigod level. No matter what Mujib will be remembered in Bangladesh without Awami league doing anything. They don't have to name everything after Mujib. And they must not give all the credits to Mujib while forgetting everyone else. This create uneasiness in the country. Hopefully when Awami league is gone and a new govt which is not BNP comes to power things will change. Present day Bangladesh politics must not revolve around 71. But 71 must not be forgotten either. Rather it should be presented from an unbiased POV.

Concept of Pakistan was formed in the 1930's by natives of P.A.K.STAN. They believed in the importance of a cultural, ethnic and historical identity as much, if not more than religion.

They never intended Indian Muslims (Muhajirs) or Bengalis to be a part of this state. Infact they proposed Osmanistan for Indian Muslims and Bangistan for Bengali Muslims.

I ask this, could be a sensitive question. What is Pakistan? Is it a nation or an ideology? What is the reason behind it's existence? Love for subcontinent Muslims or hatred for majority subcontinent Hindus? The way you guys use the word Hindu, in PDF makes me think that it is something abusive. What's the objective of Pakistan? Is it to improve the lives of people living in it, give them a sense of identity, a sense of belonging or is it to annoy your neighbors? You seem more focused on Kashmir than other areas.

 

[Homo Sapiens]

2nd elite of west Pakistan also wanted to get rid of bengalis bcoz of geographical and cultural difference and agitation

I agree with this point of your.West Pakistani elite mentally separated East Pakistan much before 25th March, 1971.That's why they were inflexible to any just demand of Bengali political representatives.Their mentality was, 'either live with us by accepting exploitation, humiliation and as a 2nd class citizen or get lost'. This type of hardened and inflexible attitude was the main reason of why no compromise can be found on just demand of East Pakistan and causes separation.So, don't blame Mujib.

 

[Kuru]

No those Mujahideens were different than the Taliban. Taliban were mostly the young students of the Madrassas with no Afghan war experience. Pakistan did not support or had any contact with Mullah Omar leader of the Taliban during Afghan war. In fact all the current Afghan leadership who are opposed to Taliban are the one who were sheltered and got politics support in Pakistan during Afghan war likes of Hikmat Yaar, Rabanis or even Hamid Karzai who still has house in Peshawar. No Taliban leadership ever visited to Pakistan when they were in power. Afghanistan has only experiencing the peace and stability during Taliban time as they finished the civil war and took control of more than 96% of the country. This led the Pakistan to accept the Taliban government as Pakistan western border was more safe and stable during that time.

Thanks, I'm going to read about it and reply in sometime. Good day

 

[Max]

So, don't blame Mujib.

I will blame the Bengali traitors who were dealing with Hindus much before even a bullet was fired by west Pakistani leaders.

I will also blame Pakistani elite who have negative attitude toward bengalis..

but i do not feel sad for whatever happened. it was an abnormal union which meet it fate..

lets forget this.. and build new relationship..

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I ask this, could be a sensitive question. What is Pakistan? Is it a nation or an ideology? What is the reason behind it's existence? Love for subcontinent Muslims or hatred for majority subcontinent Hindus? The way you guys use the word Hindu, in PDF makes me think that it is something abusive. What's the objective of Pakistan? Is it to improve the lives of people living in it, give them a sense of identity, a sense of belonging or is it to annoy your neighbors? You seem more focused on Kashmir than other areas.

Pakistan is a federation of 5 nations which have distinct (but similar) languages, peoples, cultures, histories and etc....

P - Punjab
A - Afghania
K - Kashmir
S - Sindh
TAN - BalochisTAN

 

[Mage]

Pakistan is a federation of 5 nations which have distinct (but similar) languages, peoples, cultures, histories and etc....

P - Punjab
A - Afghania
K - Kashmir
S - Sindh
TAN - BalochisTAN

So it is five distinct nation. And the federation Pakistan exist to keep the nation unified? Meaning part of the federation is occupied by India? And if any nation want it can break away from the federation? Like if Baluchistan thinks its not worth to be part of the nation?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

So it is five distinct nation. And the federation Pakistan exist to keep the nation unified?

Pakistan is the result of these 5 states uniting to form a single country with a federal government for their best interests.

Meaning part of the federation is occupied by India?

Yes, about half of Kashmir is occupied by India. Kashmiris share much more in common with their fellow Pakistanis than they do with occupying foreign Indians.

I am a Kashmiri Muhajir. My Grandparents witnessed most of their family get exterminated by the foreign Dogra regime and their Indian backers. Hundreds of thousands died and Jammu lost it's Muslim-majority status within a single night. Over 300,000 fled into Pakistan. So for me, this dispute is personal and hence why we are very aggressive when it comes to Kashmir.

And if any nation want it can break away from the federation? Like if Baluchistan thinks its not worth to be part of the nation?

There is no constitutional mechanism that allows a secesion, as agreed by most of the leaders and intellectuals of these 5 provinces. In order to break away, a civil war would be required just as in almost any other country.

However, over 70 years. Punjab, KPK/FATA, Balochistan, Sindh and Kashmir have become so integrated into each other through cultural exchange, inter-marriages, shared patriotism, new common language, political participation and awareness, increased interaction, common ideologies and etc... that a future "breakaway" would be impossible.

There are some separatist groups roaming around, both politically violence or peaceful. Yet they number very low and enjoy little to no support.

 

[Mage]

Pakistan is the result of these 5 states uniting to form a single country with a federal government for their best interests.


Yes, about half of Kashmir is occupied by India. Kashmiris share much more in common with their fellow Pakistanis than they do with occupying foreign Indians.

I am a Kashmiri Muhajir. My Grandparents witnessed most of their family get exterminated by the foreign Dogra regime and their Indian backers. Hundreds of thousands died and Jammu lost it's Muslim-majority status within a single night. Over 300,000 fled into Pakistan. So for me, this dispute is personal and hence why we are very aggressive when it comes to Kashmir.


There is no constitutional mechanism that allows a secesion, as agreed by most of the leaders and intellectuals of these 5 provinces. In order to break away, a civil war would be required just as in almost any other country.

However, over 70 years. Punjab, KPK/FATA, Balochistan, Sindh and Kashmir have become so integrated into each other through cultural exchange, inter-marriages, shared patriotism, new common language, political participation and awareness, increased interaction, common ideologies and etc... that a future "breakaway" would be impossible.

There are some separatist groups roaming around, both politically violence or peaceful. Yet they number very low and enjoy little to no support.

Nicely put. You explained this without bringing religion.
Just one question, is your view shared by vast majority of Pakistanis? That similarity of culture not religion is the basis of Pakistan?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Nicely put. You explained this without bringing religion.
Just one question, is your view shared by vast majority of Pakistanis? That similarity of culture not religion is the basis of Pakistan?

Both culture and religion played a great role in the creation of Pakistan and continue to keep us united. Pakistani views are very diverse, but that is what most would say.

 

[Mage]

Both culture and religion played a great role in the creation of Pakistan and continue to keep us united. Pakistani views are very diverse, but that is what most would say.

Here comes the confusion. Just be sure of your own identity.

Muslim and Pakistani are two very different things. Are they not? Was your cultural similarity is not enough to create Pakistan? Why bring religion here?


What is Pakistan?
A nation with the five states who share common culture?
Or,
An Israel for subcontinent Muslim?

You can't be both at the same time. Because if you import other Muslims, the common culture goes away. Who is Jinnah? Is he from any of the five states? Then how did he ended up being father if the nation?

Look, I have no hatred in Particular for Pakistan or Pakistanis. I just want you guys to be sure about your identity. If you have conflict about what your Pakistani identity is, then the country will always be on turmoil. There will always be violence between various groups.

 

[Sully3]

long story short India provided terrorist training to Mukthi Bani for 7 years before the 71 war happened and again strengthens the argument that indian government has a long history of spreading terrorist inside neighbouring countries.

 

[Mage]

long story short India provided terrorist training to Mukthi Bani for 7 years before the 71 war happened.

Proof?

 

[Sully3]

Proof?

proof that 9/11 was an inside job?

proof that it was actually OBL that the americans killed in the raid?

Proof that india carried out surgical strikes?

Proof that Pak armed forces committed genocide in East Pakistan ?

 

[Mage]

proof that 9/11 was an inside job?

It wasn't. Therefore no proof.

proof that it was actually OBL that the americans killed in the raid?

There are sources from both sides verifying it.

Proof that india carried out surgical strikes?

Ask the Indian members.

Proof that Pak armed forces committed genocide in East Pakistan ?

Their atrocities are well documented.

Also previous post reported for no value adding discussion and false accusations.

 

[Sully3]

Also previous post reported for no value adding discussion and false accusations.

gutless Bengali, no surprises at all here.

PS if you actually read the OP in it it gives a detailed account of India providing Mukthi Bani with terrorist training