A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[Naofumi]

Mainly the dressing and a regressive approach to Islam. What is not present here is the Talibani hangings, floggings, stoning to death.

Bro, you're borderline Islamophobic; I agree that there have been some misgivings mainly in social indicators like literacy rates which may give the perception of "resisting and regressive " minority but to put all the blame on Muslims is a very dangerous assumption.
I know that the "Islam is a death cult" sentiment runs deep in the Communist party's settings but please look at some data and facts too.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Is there any evidence to prove this? Because my experience tells that Muslims are getting more and more westernised albeit to a lesser degree than Hindus; maybe you people are looking relatively.

It is happening both ways.

A part is becoming less Muslim even.

The other is adhering with more sincerety. The former is much much less that the latter.

 

[xeuss]

Bro, you're borderline Islamophobic; I agree that there have been some misgivings mainly in social indicators like literacy rates which may give the perception of "resisting and regressive " minority but to put all the blame on Muslims is a very dangerous assumption.
I know that the "Islam is a death cult" sentiment runs deep in the Communist party's settings but please look at some data and facts too.

Good observation.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

In India, I don't know about the North and the East but @padamchen will know of this in the West and I am witness in the South that, I again quote the timeline of the last 15 years, the Muslim social atmosphere here doesn't feel much different than being under the Taliban. Mainly the dressing and a regressive approach to Islam. What is not present here is the Talibani hangings, floggings, stoning to death. In certain cities there are even moral police groups, the counterpart to Hindutva moral police groups like Bajrang Dal and Sri Rama Sene.

All this wasn't the work of Deoband school fatwas but because of the TJ. I see their very visible effects.

Your ideas about the Taliban are just as wrong as the Tabligh.

The whole Muslim world is experiencing increases religiosity, it is not only Indian Muslims.

Some places, it is Tabligh, and other places like Pakistan, it is political and social change and increased conservatism.

No bhai, the TJ is banned in certain countries ( Russia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan ) for the specific reason that it serves as the stepping stone to joining or setting up violent groups. I quote the Wikipedia page for TJ for some more info :

Those countries have deeper problems when it comes to freedom of religion.

This era will see more Islamization of Central Asia as Pakistan and Afghanistan influence spreads North.

That's an interesting idea. In the next coming five years I intend to have some political influence by using a certain technological project of mine to gain business prominence. This will give me the platform to reach out to Indians generally and Muslims in particular. What you suggest might just be possible.

Give people an alternative and let them choose. The more popular idea will catch on.

 

[jamahir]

When I posted the same cringe something thought I was doing a caricature.

@xeuss advised me to get out of my hoise more.

Yes, I have seen those posts.

I know that the "Islam is a death cult" sentiment runs deep in the Communist party's settings but please look at some data and facts too.

That isn't what I meant.

Bro, you're borderline Islamophobic; I agree that there have been some misgivings mainly in social indicators like literacy rates which may give the perception of "resisting and regressive " minority but to put all the blame on Muslims is a very dangerous assumption.

islamophobic ?

Let me repeat an oft-made statement. In a computer institute I attended years ago here in India I had a batch mate named Jamal Abdul Nasser, named after the Egyptian leader. My batch mate's parents ( the father used to be a doctor in Britain ) were much inspired by this leader's exploits which during his time inspired Muslims all over the world. But now, do you see young Indian Muslim fathers naming their sons after such great historic figures ? Or sons even named after Tipu who was an enlightened person ? Will you deny there is a change for the worse now ?

 

[padamchen]

Yes, I have seen those posts.



That isn't what I meant.



islamophobic ?

Let me repeat an opt-made statement. In a computer institute I attended years ago here in India I had a batch mate named Jamal Abdul Nasser, named after the Egyptian leader. My batch mate's parents ( the father used to be a doctor in Britain ) were much inspired by this leader's exploits which during his time inspired Muslims all over the world. Do you see young Indian Muslim fathers naming their sons after such great historic figures ? Or sons even named after Tipu who was an enlightened person ? Will you deny there is a change towards the worse now ?

What in your view will it take Owaisi to forge s pan India party that enjoys the mandate of all (or most) Indian Muslims?

Is it possible?

If it is, do you realise the power your community would wield at the center?

 

[Naofumi]

It is happening both ways.

A part is becoming less Muslim even.

The other is adhering with more sincerety. The former is much much less that the latter.

I live here, in the community. The young generation is very much penetrated by smartphones, Bollywood, TikTok etc.
The real misgiving to be pointed out is that the community's focus is not on education and integrating in the system at large; also the historical hostility of the system plays a role like when I was graduating from 12th, many of my Hindu friends were going for NDA (entrance for Army's commissioned post) but my family told "Muslims don't go to the Army because we don't fit there", now some of them have probably completed their trainings and are posted.

Another attitude which I saw growing up was the complete distrust in authorities and government, like "they" cheat on Muslims in exams, interviews etc mixed with anecdotes about discrimination of which some may be true.

Now how much is the religion's/community's role in this? It would be dishonest to say there's no fault of the community, simply the attitudes are sometimes regressive but it's a cycle, you see - what we call the social mobility (both in social and economic sense) and finally about the Ulema's role - it's limited, divided and can sometimes be felt as regressive.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

A request - please keep the discussion on topic and not my identity and my supposed lack of nationalism - whatever that means.

What in your view will it take Owaisi to forge s pan India party that enjoys the mandate of all (or most) Indian Muslims?

Is it possible?

If it is, do you realise the power your community would wield at the center?

Owaisi brings little to the table when it comes to uniting all Muslims ALL over India.

He fights for Muslim rights IN Hyderabad. Everywhere else, he just opines.

Our society is not as bigoted as yours that local aspirations will be overridden by an overwhelming emotion (hate) for other communities. Local leaders rule the roost elsewhere.

Muslims don't go to the Army because we don't fit there",

Especially after the actions of the past few days, I genuinely ask you - would you be comfortable to shoot Kashimiris if an order comes forth?

It is not a rhetorical question. You would not. You are human and have feelings. Shooting innocents like that will destroy your conscience.

like "they" cheat on Muslims in exams, interviews etc mixed with anecdotes about discrimination of which some may be true.

Well, take the Army for instance.

How many Muslims are there?

How many Muslim doctors are there?

How many Muslim entrepreneurs?

@xeuss

 

[Naofumi]

Will you deny there is a change towards the worse now ?

Of course, I will deny. Whatever someone says, literacy rates, female participation etc have increased. I see many young Muslim women carving out there space and their families supporting them which was probably not possible in the previous generation, you may say "Hijab is still forced blah blah" but stats have improved. The thing to worry about is that relative speed is slow but to say we're going to be the next Taliban/Al-Qaeda would be a gross exaggeration.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Let me repeat an opt-made statement. In a computer institute I attended years ago here in India I had a batch mate named Jamal Abdul Nasser, named after the Egyptian leader. My batch mate's parents ( the father used to be a doctor in Britain ) were much inspired by this leader's exploits which during his time inspired Muslims all over the world. Do you see young Indian Muslim fathers naming their sons after such great historic figures ? Or sons even named after Tipu who was an enlightened person ?

Wait.

So you mean to say, subtly, that Nasser is BETTER than Tipu?

A Soviet secularist pawn who led Egypt to disastrous defeats, destroyed Arab unity for good is better than one of the first original fighters against the British imperialists?

@The_Showstopper

Of course, I will deny. Whatever someone says, literacy rates, female participation etc have increased. I see many young Muslim women carving out there space and their families supporting them which was probably not possible in the previous generation, you may say "Hijab is still forced blah blah" but stats have improved. The thing to worry about is that relative speed is slow but to say we're going to be the next Taliban/Al-Qaeda would be a gross exaggeration.

On the contrary, adherence has increased because of education.

Women DO NOT need scholars to tell them what is good for them. They read, they learn and they themselves adopt the hijab. This is a trend in the most well educated places on Earth.

 

[padamchen]

I live here, in the community. The young generation is very much penetrated by smartphones, Bollywood, TikTok etc.
The real misgiving to be pointed out is that the community's focus is not on education and integrating in the system at large; also the historical hostility of the system plays a role like when I was graduating from 12th, many of my Hindu friends were going for NDA (entrance for Army's commissioned post) but my family told "Muslims don't go to the Army because we don't fit there", now some of them have probably completed their trainings and are posted.

Another attitude which I saw growing up was the complete distrust in authorities and government, like "they" cheat on Muslims in exams, interviews etc mixed with anecdotes about discrimination of which some may be true.

Now how much is the religion's/community's role in this? It would be dishonest to say there's no fault of the community, simply the attitudes are sometimes regressive but it's a cycle, you see - what we call the social mobility (both in social and economic sense) and finally about the Ulema's role - it's limited, divided and can sometimes be felt as regressive.

You said you're 20.

No way have your friends in NDA finished their training.

Why don't you try?

There are Muslim friends of mine who are now Colonels, doing great, and in fact one of them is informally slated for big things.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

There are Muslim friends of mine who are now Colonels, doing great, and in fact one of them is informally skated for big things.

And gleefully declare killed innocents as terrorists?

 

[jamahir]

@padamchen @Naofumi @AfrazulMandal, I am logging-off now to go to sleep. I will reply tomorrow.

 

[padamchen]

A request - please keep the discussion on topic and not my identity and my supposed lack of nationalism - whatever that means.


Owaisi brings little to the table when it comes to uniting all Muslims ALL over India.

He fights for Muslim rights IN Hyderabad. Everywhere else, he just opines.

Our society is not as bigoted as yours that local aspirations will be overridden by an overwhelming emotion (hate) for other communities. Local leaders rule the roost elsewhere.


Especially after the actions of the past few days, I genuinely ask you - would you be comfortable to shoot Kashimiris if an order comes forth?

It is not a rhetorical question. You would not. You are human and have feelings. Shooting innocents like that will destroy your conscience.


Well, take the Army for instance.

How many Muslims are there?

How many Muslim doctors are there?

How many Muslim entrepreneurs?

@xeuss

My society is Indian

Yours is Australian.

Don't pretend to be an expert on Indian issues or Indian Muslim issues.

The question was put to an Indian Muslim.

Not an Australian one.

 

[Naofumi]

You said you're 20.

No way have your friends in NDA finished their training.

Why don't you try?

I gave my entrance and got into "relatively" prestigious university for engineering, so I can't try now because I have to complete my degree.
Secondly, I have my opinions about the concept of military at large, call me a "pacifist".
But one of my friend plans to get into the technical wing of the military after graduation(his father is an ex-pilot), who knows maybe I end up there?