A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[padamchen]

Well, this thread looks like it has some fascinating exchanges - I've avoided it so far because I expected it to devolve into the usual.

Now I have to read through it.

Yay.

You kept the fire burning at all times, did it drive the Asura's away ?

Of wait, weren't YOU guys the Asuras ?

Be nice mallu.

 

[xeuss]

@AfrazulMandal @xeuss

And now you see the breadth and depth of their support, bare and naked before the whole wide world.

What is the weird name humbl. has now adopted?

You are alluding that both @AfrazulMandal and I are on this forum seeking support for Indian Muslims from Pakistanis. I don't think that is the case for either of us.

What is troubling is, if some Hindu is on the forum and criticizing India, you would never accuse him of "seeking support from Pakistan". I have noticed @Shantanu_Left, types a lot of critical messages against the Sanghis etc. But you wouldn't ever say that he is seeking "Pakistani support"

So at the end, an Indian Muslim, unless he is always loudly abusing Pakistan, is considered by even liberal and well-meaning Hindus like @Joe Shearer, to be engaged in some sort of subversion and reaching out to Pakistan for support.

 

[Joe Shearer]

readers are smart enough to know and understand your arguments. all are targeted towards one target...but of-course, in a very polite and gentle way, using fancy words....

Then readers are smarter than I am, and are reading things that I did not write.

You have full freedom to express yourself, in a way you choose to......so do I, and here in this thread, as an observer I pointed out what I noticed. lets see, if the ones being targeted feel it or not....

I have used that freedom as a guest should, never in a sly or underhand manner. You keep repeating again and again that you see something that is not explicit. But other than expressing the pious hope that more members would share your insight and vision, you have not yet, to this post, said anything.

Either I have said something objectionable, or I have not. If the first, any man of integrity should have no difficulty in saying what it is.

and, you need to calm down, it has nothing to do with your character, we all favor one and not the other......

If I displayed a lack of calm, I am surprised.

NO.......
I am Muslim

 

[Naofumi]

Also, there's a technicality, only this one species supposedly native to this land is supposed to be protected

Then you're in the wrong direction.
See

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

because we are people of the faith and we do this to please Allah. not some idol worshipper hell bound loser.

Good argument from a religious brotherhood perspective but you should have left out the last sentence about idol worshipers.

 

[Naofumi]

You are alluding that both @AfrazulMandal and I are on this forum seeking support for Indian Muslims from Pakistanis. I don't think that is the case for either of us.

What is troubling is, if some Hindu is on the forum and criticizing India, you would never accuse him of "seeking support from Pakistan". I have noticed @Shantanu_Left, types a lot of critical messages against the Sanghis etc. But you wouldn't ever say that he is seeking "Pakistani support"

So at the end, an Indian Muslim, unless he is always loudly abusing Pakistan, is considered by even liberal and well-meaning Hindus like @Joe Shearer, to be engaged in some sort of subversion and reaching out to Pakistan for support.

You entertain Afrazul's posts, maybe that's why..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yay.

I promise I'll try to be nice.

It's just another Quarantine Monday after all.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

You are alluding that both @AfrazulMandal and I are on this forum seeking support for Indian Muslims from Pakistanis. I don't think that is the case for either of us.

What is troubling is, if some Hindu is on the forum and criticizing India, you would never accuse him of "seeking support from Pakistan". I have noticed @Shantanu_Left, types a lot of critical messages against the Sanghis etc. But you wouldn't ever say that he is seeking "Pakistani support"

So at the end, an Indian Muslim, unless he is always loudly abusing Pakistan, is considered by even liberal and well-meaning Hindus like @Joe Shearer, to be engaged in some sort of subversion and reaching out to Pakistan for support.

He has a Hindu name, perhaps.

But he does not behave like one, and is quite evidently irreligious.

Perhaps that gives him his moral compass and makes him appear more... even handed?

What you noticed is probably the 'Hindu' privilege that one can do little about, except this below where this liberal secular lady left Hinduism as a protest.
https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/can-hindus-give-up-their-hindu-privilege

 

[Sharma Ji]

Hindu fertility rate : 2.1
Muslim fertility rate : 2.6
Replacement rate : 2.1
Source

Those look like perfectly healthy figures.

The problem is poor people thinking having more babies is somehow a way out of poverty when it leads to the exact opposite.

that ol 80s/90s anthem.. from "har angan mein bas do hi phool ugayenge"

"bas do hi phoolon ki anumati/ijazat hai" hone waala hai lol, and that will be a good thing, do you not agree ?

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Up to this point, I find nothing to object to.



This is - pardon my French - rubbish. What happened was a demographic upheaval of gigantic proportions. Nobody could have predicted this, and nobody did. The old wives' tales and gloomy forebodings shared over a hubble-bubble don't count; they are derisory.

I can explain this in detail if you are interested. I have done so before, but it is unlikely that anyone listened; it was all about 'pin the tail on the nearest Indian'.



Half right, half wrong. Much to be said on both sides.



I will not dignify this canard by rebutting it, but will confine myself to asking you to check the party-wise seats in the General Elections from time to time. The post-Bangladesh General Election is a good point to begin.



Wrong premises, right conclusion. If only this was as easy as has been narrated.



You assume a retirement to the WhatAboutery argument. What about if it is not made?



Hypothetical history never has one, conclusive answer.

1. If Pakistan did not exist, and the Congress had functioned as it did at the time, modern, scientific in temper and progressive, yes, we might have found ourselves in the same situation.
2. If Pakistan did not exist, and the Congress had functioned in a regressive, religion-dominated mob clamouring for adjustment of all the petty grievances that had built up under the comparative freedom of British rule, yes, we might have found ourselves in the same situation, and in fact, faster, and without the intervention of the Sanghis.
3. If Pakistan did not exist, and the Congress
   1. had been more aggressive in its approach to modernisation,
   2. had firmly imposed universal education,
   3. had legislated into existence generic family law that permitted all citizens to marry, to divorce and to bequeath property in the same manner,
   4. had anticipated and planned the wave of urbanisation that India went through better, and accommodated the population of the villages after divesting them of their superstitious baggage and caste and religious exclusionary habits,
   5. had anticipated and planned the growth of employment and the enriching of recent migrants from the countryside better,
      
      India would not have been in the present situation.

Nobody anticipated #4 and #5, nobody. And that is where we stumbled.



When did I rail against 'escaped' Muslim Indians?



That is not an unmixed curse.



There is such a thing as driving an analogy too far. My friend M****** R*** in Wolverhampton, originally from Sialkot, who made his money in Kuwait, is not going anywhere back to Pakistan. U**** S****** originally from Lahore, came back for a holiday to Pakistan after 17 years and fled back to York as soon as he could. N***** S****** has made too much money to think of going back to Pakistan; however, he finds the time to travel 20 days in the month (before the virus) and measures his time on travel in 15 minute segments. When I think about the Indian Muslim coming back, and the proud republic of Bradistan, I have to restrain myself from laughing. If Indus Pakistan were here, I would summon him as a witness to bear testimony on what he had to say about the Mirpuri diaspora and their probability of return. So if I were to use whataboutery, you would not have much left to say.

Now for the funny part: every non-Hindu has to fiercely proclaim loyalty to India while staying in India. Every Muslim in Pakistan has to fiercely proclaim loyalty to Pakistan while staying in the UK, in the Netherlands, in the US, in Australia, in NewZealand, you name it, and they feel impelled to spring to their feet and proclaim their fealty in ringing tones. Ah, I am located right here in India, and talk to Muslim Indians frequently, and we damn the central government daily; it is amusing to see the vehemence with which the Pakistani diaspora insists that it is Pakistani, entirely, never mind what the citizenship laws of their present state say.

In short, your passage above is irrelevant.



We suspected that - I suspected that - in 2002. Your point being?



Two points: first, it is difficult to discuss a complex issue when what we are confronted with is a two-dimensional cartoon caricature of the real thing. The vision that Pakistanis have painted are so bizarre that it consumes a huge amount of energy just to level things to tabula rasa.

Second, it never fails to bemuse me how, step by step, we are told how much better we were a decade ago, and how we have fallen into a sad condition today. Mind you, we will be told, with perfectly straight faces, the same thing ten years later, and would have been told the same thing twenty years earlier. I refrain from comment on this phenomenon to spare your feelings.



Indeed. Except for @Kambojaric and Indus Pakistan (the latter no longer responding to tags; he seems to have taken a long time off).

I worked with Faizan Mustafa at NALSAR, not in the Law Faculty, but in Management. His faculty member dealing with traditional legal systems and I had many long and fascinating discussions, and he was thunderstruck to hear these titbits. He was even more astonished to reference them and find that I wasn't talking through the back of my neck. I really miss those conversations.

Faizan Sahib is a constitutional law expert. His web series is a tour de force.

As is often the case, this particular subject matter's debate becomes an exercise in subjectivity all too quickly. I have noticed this phenomenon whenever we discuss it, even though many of your points are well made. I won't labour the issue but it is worth noting that by available objective indicators, India has fallen a long way from where it used to be in terms of social and religious cohesion.

https://www.uscirf.gov/countries/india

In the last two decades, this problem only became noticeable recently. Many do argue that it was always there because of BJP resorting to the "communalism card" all to readily as a means of criticising Congress - often, the only critique BJP would offer was that of "Congress appeasing Muslims for their votes" as though this were some methodology around which to base a campaign to come to power in the world's second most populous nation. That's when the alarm bells should have been ringing - when instead of judging issues and proposed policies on merit alone, Congress were being flagged up by hindutva under hateful and communalist pretences. This trope was extended to portray Indian Muslims (not just the majority Hindus) as fellow "victims" of Congress politics in India because they were being exploited for their votes and nothing else. Excuse me but it is perfectly possible in a democracy where Muslims and Hindus are genuinely regarded as equals for Muslims to lobby for and attain their interests, without being summarily dismissed as simpleton tools exploited for their votes while Hindus are busying themselves with the "real" issues of supposed unified national interest.

BJP simply played this card again and again, mobilising and further indoctrinating Indian Hindus into believing that any move by Congress perceived as yielding to Muslims was to be condemned for vote banking instead of being judged on merit. It's worthwhile dwelling on that point in your own time to understand why I feel India comes across as an aberration of democracy, with only one functional party, while the other simply plays communalism to sustain itself. The problem is this game needs to be followed through. Yogi, Shah and the rest of them need to push the bar higher and higher as time passes.

You can dismiss the talk of India disintegrating as false prophecy of naysayers tainted by simple pro-Pakistani bias but that position is palpably closer today than at any point in the last 72 years.

Until the last year, Kashmir was the stick for Pakistanis to beat India with. Suddenly, Modi has handed Pakistan a second stick as Indian Muslims are genuinely feeling a small part of the same heat as Kashmiris. Would these problems vanish if Pakistan didn't exist? I don't believe so. Instead of Pakistan beating India with these sticks, India would beat itself. Hindutva wanted to rewrite Indian history and future at the expense of India's rich Muslim heritage. Whether Pakistan existed or not, hindutva would want to do that and hindutva predates Pakistan as an entity in case you have forgotten.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva

The British let this genie out and (at best) weren't bothered over what it mutated into once they left.

All of which brings me to where I started and you vigorously disagreed - that Pakistan isn't actually manipulating Indian Muslims against India for purely cynical designs. Some Pakistanis may do so but many, probably most, do not. Most of us simply see echoes of what Kashmir has gone through in the way Indian muslims have suddenly lost their dignity of late. You're right - let's not do the "I know so and so" game but it can't be ignored when previously proud Indian Muslims are now silent at best. I refrain now from asking Indian Muslim friends for their political opinions so as not to bring them into a position of discomfort.

Abdullah the Senior of Kashmir summed it up as he was dragged off in handcuffs almost a year ago: "this isn't my India" he wailed. And no Pakistani ever put those words in his mouth.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was naive not to anticipate this, but it still hurts.

You are alluding that both @AfrazulMandal and I are on this forum seeking support for Indian Muslims from Pakistanis. I don't think that is the case for either of us.

I said exactly the opposite, that you were not getting support that was sincere.

What is troubling is, if some Hindu is on the forum and criticizing India, you would never accuse him of "seeking support from Pakistan". I have noticed @Shantanu_Left, types a lot of critical messages against the Sanghis etc. But you wouldn't ever say that he is seeking "Pakistani support"

Do me a favour.

Go through the mails of PIP for the last two weeks, or ten days. See how I am constantly attacked, never by name, always by implication, on several charges, one being a refusal to accept Shantanu_Left as a genuine Indian. For that reason, I have scrupulously avoided interacting with him. It would feed all the unfounded suspicions of that pack.

So at the end, an Indian Muslim, unless he is always loudly abusing Pakistan, is considered by even liberal and well-meaning Hindus like @Joe Shearer, to be engaged in some sort of subversion and reaching out to Pakistan for support.

It is sad that after such elaborate defences of my position and your positions this is the conclusion you come to.

So be it. What can I do?

 

[AfrazulMandal]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva

The British let this genie out and (at best) weren't bothered over what it mutated into once they left.

Blaming the British now?

Hindutva was a problem for centuries. Practically ever since the local culture came into contact with philosophies that challenged it.

 

[xeuss]

He has a Hindu name, perhaps.

But he does not behave like one, has beef and is quite evidently irreligious.

Perhaps that gives him his moral compass and makes him appear more... even handed?

What you noticed is probably the 'Hindu' privilege that one can do little about, except this below where this liberal secular lady left Hinduism as a protest.
https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/can-hindus-give-up-their-hindu-privilege

No the point is that the insinuation that we are somehow seeking support from Pakistan. That insinuation is only because we are Muslims and nothing else. No Hindu would ever be accused of this. That is the mentality that we have to break.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

No the point is that the insinuation that we are somehow seeking support from Pakistan. That insinuation is only because we are Muslims and nothing else. No Hindu would ever be accused of this. That is the mentality that we have to break.

It cannot be broken IMO.

The effort will most likely be wasted.

I mean, the evidence is for all of us to see. The British looted this land. Muslim empires in the past only enriched it.
Still Hindus hate us and our religion.

In fact, with greater education and democratisation - this hatred has only increased and spread.
No erudition is going to suffice, this hatred will consume them all.

Besides, WHAT is the problem if we seek support from Pakistan?

Modiji himself sent aid to Pakistan, as has the Govt of India several times.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As is often the case, this particular subject matter's debate becomes an exercise in subjectivity all too quickly. I have noticed this phenomenon whenever we discuss it, even though many of your points are well made. I won't labour the issue but it is worth noting that by available objective indicators, India has fallen a long way from where it used to be in terms of social and religious cohesion.

https://www.uscirf.gov/countries/india

In the last two decades, this problem only became noticeable recently. Many do argue that it was always there because of BJP resorting to the "communalism card" all to readily as a means of criticising Congress - often, the only critique BJP would offer was that of "Congress appeasing Muslims for their votes" as though this were some methodology around which to base a campaign to come to power in the world's second most populous nation. That's when the alarm bells should have been ringing - when instead of judging issues and proposed policies on merit alone, Congress were being flagged up by hindutva under hateful and communalist pretences. This trope was extended to portray Indian Muslims (not just the majority Hindus) as fellow "victims" of Congress politics in India because they were being exploited for their votes and nothing else. Excuse me but it is perfectly possible in a democracy where Muslims and Hindus are genuinely regarded as equals for Muslims to lobby for and attain their interests, without being summarily dismissed as simpleton tools exploited for their votes while Hindus are busying themselves with the "real" issues of supposed unified national interest.

BJP simply played this card again and again, mobilising and further indoctrinating Indian Hindus into believing that any move by Congress perceived as yielding to Muslims was to be condemned for vote banking instead of being judged on merit. It's worthwhile dwelling on that point in your own time to understand why I feel India comes across as an aberration of democracy, with only one functional party, while the other simply plays communalism to sustain itself. The problem is this game needs to be followed through. Yogi, Shah and the rest of them need to push the bar higher and higher as time passes.

You can dismiss the talk of India disintegrating as false prophecy of naysayers tainted by simple pro-Pakistani bias but that position is palpably closer today than at any point in the last 72 years.

Until the last year, Kashmir was the stick for Pakistanis to beat India with. Suddenly, Modi has handed Pakistan a second stick as Indian Muslims are genuinely feeling a small part of the same heat as Kashmiris. Would these problems vanish if Pakistan didn't exist? I don't believe so. Instead of Pakistan beating India with these sticks, India would beat itself. Hindutva wanted to rewrite Indian history and future at the expense of India's rich Muslim heritage. Whether Pakistan existed or not, hindutva would want to do that and hindutva predates Pakistan as an entity in case you have forgotten.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva

The British let this genie out and (at best) weren't bothered over what it mutated into once they left.

All of which brings me to where I started and you vigorously disagreed - that Pakistan isn't actually manipulating Indian Muslims against India for purely cynical designs. Some Pakistanis may do so but many, probably most, do not. Most of us simply see echoes of what Kashmir has gone through in the way Indian muslims have suddenly lost their dignity of late. You're right - let's not do the "I know so and so" game but it can't be ignored when previously proud Indian Muslims are now silent at best. I refrain now from asking Indian Muslim friends for their political opinions so as not to bring them into a position of discomfort.

Abdullah the Senior of Kashmir summed it up as he was dragged off in handcuffs almost a year ago: "this isn't my India" he wailed. And no Pakistani put ever put those words in his mouth.

As I said earlier, this analysis suffers from a two-dimensional synthesised argument that is the product of very low understanding of the demographics behind what is current reality. Those who do not factor in the result of a rural-urban divide of 80:20 in 1947 across 330 millions of people turning into a rural-urban divide of 60:40 in 2020 across 1,200 millions of people have no clue about what is going on. Farooq Abdullah was precisely right; it is not his India, it changed in front of us.

If you insist on seeing it through the lens of the politics of a London borough, you will come to the conclusions that you did come to. All I can do is wish you the best of British luck in your studies.

No the point is that the insinuation that we are somehow seeking support from Pakistan. That insinuation is only because we are Muslims and nothing else. No Hindu would ever be accused of this. That is the mentality that we have to break.

I have already explained why. If a quicker, easier explanation suits you, do grasp it. It is always messy getting to grips with reality.