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A Homeland for Indian Muslims

If Muslims were secular, there wouldn't be Hindutva in the first place.

Or Modi and the rise of the BJP.
Modi or BJP? Both are different, you know. What do you think of Babri Masjid demolition incident? It happened because Muslims were not secular enough?

On Modi :
Did not someone commented that he won because of Congressi corruption? Another friend had confidently told me that he's voting for Modi because he will India a start-up hub rivalling China, ease of doing business etc?
Ohh, actually you're better - you're honest on your part.
 
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@AfrazulMandal @xeuss

I do not want to sink a needle into you, deeper and deeper, so this is the last I will say on the subject.

Let me remind you, while you read these frank confessions: These false friends are in constant hesitations and fluctuations. They always live between belief and disbelief. They do not remain in one state or condition. They betray their partners making no difference whether their partners are believers or disbelievers. Since they wander in bewilderment and break their promises, no one can trust them. Owing to their lack of commitment, no one can count on them. So, these fair-weather, opportunist friends, due to their constant betrayal, can never be good partners not only for the believers but also for the disbelievers.

Certain words have been substituted to remove these from the ambit of theology.
You - and @padamchen - both make this standard assumption that loyalty to the concept of India or Indianness contradicts the interests of enabling the Muslim descendants of the erstwhile rulers of Mughal India. Indian Muslims today would be perfectly loyal to India if their interests were not damaged by hindutva and allowed to be damaged by the inaction of "moderates" whom I wax lyrical over constantly on these pages. You're discussing the psyche of Indian Muslims here and are placing blame on those who dare to stand up for them, instead of asking why they're abandoning hindutva India in the first place. My point is, if not Pakistanis, then someone else would extend a hand. Ask yourself, if Pakistan didn't exist but India maintained an identical degree of religious and social discord, would Indian Muslims not seek relief elsewhere? That Pakistan is a reasonably assertive, vocal and stubborn nation is actually India's problem.

At the same time, people generally aren't as stupid as one may think. People are and should remain pragmatic. Indian muslims are well aware that Pakistan's interests are to thwart hindutva completely otherwise the legacy of Islamic India is under threat of destruction across south Asia. Again, you're talking about psyche. Therefore, it is straightforward that Indian Muslims would only appreciate what Pakistan is trying to tell them and the world if India pushes them to that point. I'm not going to sprawl a list of events that I think exemplify the devolved status that Indian muslims now occupy in hindutva run India, as I'm sure everyone is tired of my lists, but unless hindutva is rolled back and undone, Indian Muslims - who are target no. 1 - will find ways to resist.
 
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Modi or BJP? Both are different, you know. What do you think of Babri Masjid demolition incident? It happened because Muslims were not secular enough?

On Modi :
Did not someone commented that he won because of Congressi corruption? Another friend had confidently told me that he's voting for Modi because he will India a start-up hub rivalling China, ease of doing business etc?
Ohh, actually you're better - you're honest on your part.
Is there someone here who voted for Modi thinking about economy? Ya Mullo ko sabak sikhana hi reason tha?
 
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Is there someone here who voted for Modi thinking about economy? Ya Mullo ko sabak sikhana hi reason tha?

Does the reason matter ?

In Mahabharat, Karna asks Lord Krishna - "My mother left me the moment I was born. Is it my fault I was born an illegitimate child? I did not get the education from Dhronacharya because I was considered not a Kshatriya.

Parsuraam taught me but then gave me the curse to forget everything when he came to know I was Son of Kunthi belong to Kshatriya. A cow was accidentally hit by my arrow & its owner cursed me for no fault of mine. I was disgraced in Draupadi's Swayamvar.

Even Kunthi finally told me the truth only to save her other sons. Whatever I received was through Duryodhana's charity. So how am I wrong in taking his side ???"

Lord Krishna replies, "Karna, I was born in a jail. Death was waiting for me even before my birth.

The night I was born I was separated from my birth parents. From childhood, you grew up hearing the noise of swords, chariots, horses, bow, and arrows. I got only cow herd's shed, dung, and multiple attempts on my life even before I could walk!.

No Army, No Education. I could hear people saying I am the reason for all their problems. When all of you were being appreciated for your valour by your teachers I had not even received any education. I joined Gurukula of Rishi Sandipani only at the age of 16!

You are married to a girl of your choice. I didn't get the girl I loved & rather ended up marrying those who wanted me or the ones I rescued from demons. I had to move my whole community from the banks of Yamuna to far off Sea shore to save them from Jarasandh.

I was called a coward for running away!! If Duryodhana wins the war you will get a lot of credit. What do I get if Dharmaraja wins the war? Only the blame for the war and all related problems... Remember one thing, Karna. Everybody has Challenges in life to face.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR & EASY ON ANYBODY!

Life's unfairness does not give you license to walk the wrong path.
 
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You - and @padamchen - both make this standard assumption that loyalty to the concept of India or Indianness contradicts the interests of enabling the Muslim descendants of the erstwhile rulers of Mughal India. Indian Muslims today would be perfectly loyal to India if their interests were not damaged by hindutva and allowed to be damaged by the inaction of "moderates" whom I wax lyrical over constantly on these pages. You're discussing the psyche of Indian Muslims here and are placing blame on those who dare to stand up for them, instead of asking why they're abandoning hindutva India in the first place. My point is, if not Pakistanis, then someone else would extend a hand. Ask yourself, if Pakistan didn't exist but India maintained an identical degree of religious and social discord, would Indian Muslims not seek relief elsewhere? That Pakistan is a reasonably assertive, vocal and stubborn nation is actually India's problem.

You could not be more mistaken - more sadly mistaken. The British are in the habit of saying with a condescending smirk that Indians (and Pakistanis) almost get it right. That is the fallacy into which you have fallen.

@padamchen and I differ on this matter. For starters, clubbing us together shows how very poorly you have understood two disparate, sometimes even opposing points of view. I cannot speak - ought not to speak - for @padamchen, and what I have to say, therefore, defines my position alone.

My position is very simple and requires no PhD to understand, only an open mind and a refusal to follow the herd and bleat out the party line.

It is that we are perfectly entitled, all communities in the country of India, to live as equals in India, perhaps losing out over a period of time some of our regressive personal laws and the legal disabilities of individuals due to a failure of policy on the part of the government. It is that our constitutional positions have been eroded by radical Hindus, who believe neither in the rule of law, nor in moving the entire country along on any path. It is therefore the duty of all liberal citizens to oppose this monstrosity before all Indian society is consumed in these violent disagreements.

We should look for support from whomsoever offers it. However, in seeking support, we need to check the motives of our supporters. That brings us to the reason for your post, and the reasons for sadly dismissing it as mistaken at the core.

We were supported in a really cynical way by those who sought to make the basis of their support a shared religion. However, this support, this basis was paper-thin; the moment this was challenged, it was thrown away and the true motives came out: it was then apparent, in the words of the challenged person himself, that the support offered was purely a tactical gesture, and that underlying all the talk of religious unity was a deep and abiding contempt of the Muslim Indian, for daring to be Indian as well as Muslim. That was the rankest hypocrisy, and it was classed as such. Your mistake was to assume that I was warning them against any external support;I was warning them, but it was against the false and spurious support intended to use them as agents to demolish any corporate spirit among Indians, with no interest in anything further.

At the same time, people generally aren't as stupid as one may think. People are and should remain pragmatic. Indian muslims are well aware that Pakistan's interests are to thwart hindutva completely otherwise the legacy of Islamic India is under threat of destruction across south Asia. Again, you're talking about psyche. Therefore, it is straightforward that Indian Muslims would only appreciate what Pakistan is trying to tell them and the world if India pushes them to that point. I'm not going to sprawl a list of events that I think exemplify the devolved status that Indian muslims now occupy in hindutva run India, as I'm sure everyone is tired of my lists, but unless hindutva is rolled back and undone, Indian Muslims - who are target no. 1 - will find ways to resist.

What was there in the second part of your post that you thought antithetical to my position? I would be interested to know.
 
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You - and @padamchen - both make this standard assumption that loyalty to the concept of India or Indianness contradicts the interests of enabling the Muslim descendants of the erstwhile rulers of Mughal India. Indian Muslims today would be perfectly loyal to India if their interests were not damaged by hindutva and allowed to be damaged by the inaction of "moderates" whom I wax lyrical over constantly on these pages. You're discussing the psyche of Indian Muslims here and are placing blame on those who dare to stand up for them, instead of asking why they're abandoning hindutva India in the first place. My point is, if not Pakistanis, then someone else would extend a hand. Ask yourself, if Pakistan didn't exist but India maintained an identical degree of religious and social discord, would Indian Muslims not seek relief elsewhere? That Pakistan is a reasonably assertive, vocal and stubborn nation is actually India's problem.

At the same time, people generally aren't as stupid as one may think. People are and should remain pragmatic. Indian muslims are well aware that Pakistan's interests are to thwart hindutva completely otherwise the legacy of Islamic India is under threat of destruction across south Asia. Again, you're talking about psyche. Therefore, it is straightforward that Indian Muslims would only appreciate what Pakistan is trying to tell them and the world if India pushes them to that point. I'm not going to sprawl a list of events that I think exemplify the devolved status that Indian muslims now occupy in hindutva run India, as I'm sure everyone is tired of my lists, but unless hindutva is rolled back and undone, Indian Muslims - who are target no. 1 - will find ways to resist.

Bhai mere, I'm always ready to talk to our Muslims. Through the years. Regardless of how far right my personal compass leaned.

But if you take a line that now I am out of India, out of your reach, so fug you India.

Then my automatic line is I'm happy that India is rid of you. And fug you too.

Short and concise post to your wordy one.

Basically, they have been deemed beyond salvage.

I cannot touch them, they cannot touch me.

And I have nothing to gain or lose from them. Nor my country and my people.

Why waste more time? That's what I was trying to explain to Joe.

I have all the time in the world for @Naofumi though. And I'll spend my energies and time wisely.
 
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It is that we are perfectly entitled, all communities in the country of India, to live as equals in India, perhaps losing out over a period of time some of our regressive personal laws and the legal disabilities of individuals due to a failure of policy on the part of the government.
Why did it take so long for Triple Talaq to go away? Shouldn't the Muslims themselves have come forward to say: Hey, I think this is morally unjust and we don't want this law anymore.
 
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Yes you do
Yes, but not on the level of the problems with Muslims. Tell me, why do Muslims have problems in say, Sri Lanka or Myanmar or Europe or US? Or even in their own ME countries like Syria and Iraq?

Because it's easy to manipulate them using religion. I'm not blaming the gullible common Muslim but the manipulator Mullahs. But the common Muslim is also to be blamed if he doesn't use common sense and the instrument called brain that God has given everyone. Instead, they prefer to seek guidance on certain books which may not always be applicable in the modern 21st century.
 
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Does the reason matter ?

In Mahabharat, Karna asks Lord Krishna - "My mother left me the moment I was born. Is it my fault I was born an illegitimate child? I did not get the education from Dhronacharya because I was considered not a Kshatriya.

Parsuraam taught me but then gave me the curse to forget everything when he came to know I was Son of Kunthi belong to Kshatriya. A cow was accidentally hit by my arrow & its owner cursed me for no fault of mine. I was disgraced in Draupadi's Swayamvar.

Even Kunthi finally told me the truth only to save her other sons. Whatever I received was through Duryodhana's charity. So how am I wrong in taking his side ???"

Lord Krishna replies, "Karna, I was born in a jail. Death was waiting for me even before my birth.

The night I was born I was separated from my birth parents. From childhood, you grew up hearing the noise of swords, chariots, horses, bow, and arrows. I got only cow herd's shed, dung, and multiple attempts on my life even before I could walk!.

No Army, No Education. I could hear people saying I am the reason for all their problems. When all of you were being appreciated for your valour by your teachers I had not even received any education. I joined Gurukula of Rishi Sandipani only at the age of 16!

You are married to a girl of your choice. I didn't get the girl I loved & rather ended up marrying those who wanted me or the ones I rescued from demons. I had to move my whole community from the banks of Yamuna to far off Sea shore to save them from Jarasandh.

I was called a coward for running away!! If Duryodhana wins the war you will get a lot of credit. What do I get if Dharmaraja wins the war? Only the blame for the war and all related problems... Remember one thing, Karna. Everybody has Challenges in life to face.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR & EASY ON ANYBODY!

Life's unfairness does not give you license to walk the wrong path.
Did not read it. Can you make your point short and concise?
 
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Does the reason matter ?

In Mahabharat, Karna asks Lord Krishna - "My mother left me the moment I was born. Is it my fault I was born an illegitimate child? I did not get the education from Dhronacharya because I was considered not a Kshatriya.

Parsuraam taught me but then gave me the curse to forget everything when he came to know I was Son of Kunthi belong to Kshatriya. A cow was accidentally hit by my arrow & its owner cursed me for no fault of mine. I was disgraced in Draupadi's Swayamvar.

Even Kunthi finally told me the truth only to save her other sons. Whatever I received was through Duryodhana's charity. So how am I wrong in taking his side ???"

Lord Krishna replies, "Karna, I was born in a jail. Death was waiting for me even before my birth.

The night I was born I was separated from my birth parents. From childhood, you grew up hearing the noise of swords, chariots, horses, bow, and arrows. I got only cow herd's shed, dung, and multiple attempts on my life even before I could walk!.

No Army, No Education. I could hear people saying I am the reason for all their problems. When all of you were being appreciated for your valour by your teachers I had not even received any education. I joined Gurukula of Rishi Sandipani only at the age of 16!

You are married to a girl of your choice. I didn't get the girl I loved & rather ended up marrying those who wanted me or the ones I rescued from demons. I had to move my whole community from the banks of Yamuna to far off Sea shore to save them from Jarasandh.

I was called a coward for running away!! If Duryodhana wins the war you will get a lot of credit. What do I get if Dharmaraja wins the war? Only the blame for the war and all related problems... Remember one thing, Karna. Everybody has Challenges in life to face.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR & EASY ON ANYBODY!

Life's unfairness does not give you license to walk the wrong path.

I do not wish to be a hypocrite, and will continue to oppose you wherever you display bigotry, but you have made an awesome point.

For this, and for this alone, respect.

Did not read it. Can you make your point short and concise?

Do not complain that you had a tough time, and were denied many things, and were only guilty of following a leader who showed you kindness but took you down an evil path.

There are those who had a worse time, but had the character to choose the right path.
 
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Do not complain that you had a tough time, and were denied many things, and were only guilty of following a leader who showed kindness but took an evil path.

There are those who had a worse time, but had the character to choose the right path.
But I simply asked if he voted for economy or the other reason? What do I make of this?
 
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