A few Siachen facts and bluffs!

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

I knew you will run when presented with facts.Not fifteen minutes ago, you were quite eager to compare Karachi with Mumbai.



That's why I asked you, whether you understand what UNDP is or not, and quoted the report which clearly says Orangi town has become bigger than Dharavi, while Karachi is three times smaller than Mumbai in terms of GDP. Any problem with your comprehension power ?

And finally, you want to talk about Siachen...Well go through the posts by Bang Galore and levina and the others in this thread. They have pretty much nailed it.

Kashmir is just power play, if we grab the land, we will stay, if you land the grab you will stay. but your Sarkar and Prasashan is peace lover and scared of escalation hence STALEMATE!

 

[nForce]

Kashmir is just power play, if we grab the land, we will stay, if you land the grab you will stay. but your Sarkar and Prasashan is peace lover and scared of escalation hence STALEMATE!

Kashmir is the reason Pakistan spends more money on army than education or healthcare.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Kashmir is the reason Pakistan spends more money on army than education or healthcare.

Whatever we are spending is sufficient. We are not 1.26 Billion

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Isn't Gyong La a part of Siachen?

No. its part of saltoro ridge around 5km southwest of the Siachen glacier

The Saltoro Mountains are a subrange of the KarakoramRange.[1] They are located in the heart of the Karakoram, on the southwest side of the Siachen Glacier, one of the two longest glaciers outside of the polar regions. The name given to this range is shared with the Saltoro Valley which is located to the west of this range, down slope on the Pakistan side of the Actual Ground Position Line.

Saltoro Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Levina]

It's a well established principle and custom of demarcating borders and lines of control in mountainous areas to follow the high crest separating the two watersheds on either side. North of NJ-9842 there are two glaciers: the Siachen Glacier to the east of the high crest and the Baltoro Glacier to the west of the crest which is being discussed - the Saltoro Ridge which forms a natural watershed between the two glaciers.

Have I got it right???

 

[Psychic]

@levina

Truth/Facts About Pakistani Claim Over Siachen Glacier

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@levina

Truth/Facts About Pakistani Claim Over Siachen Glacier

Sir we DO NOT accept Pakistan's claim over Kashmir

And Siachen being a part of Kashmir
is also a part of India

 

[Foo_Fighter]

We consider your J&K as Pakistani land itself, occupied by India.

We consider the whole Pakistan occupied by radical muslims as India, however we have forgotten it now and you should forget it too.

 

[Psychic]

Sir we DO NOT accept Pakistan's claim over Kashmir

And Siachen being a part of Kashmir
is also a part of India

That is about CFL and LOC, signed by both Pakistan and India and stamped by UN observers, not our claim of Kashmir.

Did you even care to study the content of that thread before posting?

 

[Levina]

Did you even care to study the content of that thread before posting?

That thread is xeric's conclusion and it deviates from CFL. There is no page number 38 in CFL that hes talking about.

@levina

Truth/Facts About Pakistani Claim Over Siachen Glacier

Agreement between Military Representatives of India and Pakistan Regarding the Establishment of a Ceasefire Line in the State of Jammu and Kashmir (Karachi Agreement) | UN Peacemaker

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That is about CFL and LOC, signed by both Pakistan and India and stamped by UN observers, not our claim of Kashmir.

Did you even care to study the content of that thread before posting?

Of course what you have posted is nothing new

But when Pakistan tried to grab Siachen in 1983 because of US defence agency maps
ALL previous agreements went out of the window

Pakistan needs Siachen ; Hence India will not allow it

Seeing Siachen in ISOLATION is not going to help at all

There are two questions here

1 The first question is about the WHOLE J and K

2 How should the LOC move forward from NJ 9842

The Siachen issue has been subsumed by the larger Kashmir issue and all the conflict
that it has entailed

India will not demilitarise from Siachen unless LOC is formalised as the IB

@Psychic @Bratva

For India ;Siachen is NOT just an India Pakistan problem

The China angle is even bigger ; It is a NEW dimension but the most important one

Siachen gives us and allows us a
Birds eye view over very large parts of China
Hence we will KEEP IT

 

[Bang Galore]

Have I got it right???

View attachment 224569

Correct.

@levina

It is important to understand India's legal argument during the Karachi agreement in 1949 which was as follows.

The factual position of troops on the day of the ceasefire, i.e. January 1, 1949, was to be the basis for delineating the ceasefire line. India and Pakistan had conflicting claims. As the UN had accepted India’s legal status in Kashmir , India used the argument that no-man's land would be taken as Indian territory and got the 200 square mile Tilel Valley precisely on that basis. Pakistan desperately tried for this Valley, eventually bidding for equal share, but failed. The principle of no-man's land being India's territory was thus established and the Siachen glacier would be normally deemed as part of Indian territory using that argument.

"This meant that the onus of proof to convince the commission of any factual position, on the date of ceasefire, in any disputed territory, rested with Pakistan. Sinha (Lt.Gen. S.K. Sinha, the only surviving member from those talks) remembered: “In the absence of any such convincing proof, and even if India had no troops on the date of ceasefire in that area, the disputed territory should automatically come under Indian control… Based on this, we obtained control of several hundred square miles of State territory.’"

 

[Psychic]

There is no page number 38 in CFL that hes talking about.

@Xeric

That thread is xeric's conclusion and it deviates from CFL. There is no page number 38 in CFL that hes talking about.



Agreement between Military Representatives of India and Pakistan Regarding the Establishment of a Ceasefire Line in the State of Jammu and Kashmir (Karachi Agreement) | UN Peacemaker

View attachment 224573

View attachment 224575

This is an Indian pre 1984 map

After Indian occupation, maps changed, before that, India considered it as a part of Pakistani held Kashmir.

So much for the "thence North".

 

[OrionHunter]

Interesting tit-bit:

Musharraf's Disastrous SSG Operation.

After 1984, Pakistan launched several attempts to displace the Indian forces from Soltoro Ridge, but with little success. The most well known was in 1987, when an attempt was made by Pakistan to dislodge India from the area. The attack was masterminded by Musharraf heading a newly raised elite SSG commando unit with U.S. Special Forces help in the area. After bitter fighting that included hand-to-hand combat, the Pakistani attack was repulsed with heavy losses to the SSG (Which Pakistanis consider one of the best in the world, and who were beaten back not by Indian commandos but normal infantry) and the positions remained the same.

Seems Mush failed to learn any lessons as he embarked on yet another disastrous operation in Kargil where he again got egg on his face! He was 'egged' on by one of his Generals who was part of the Gang of Four who planned Kargil when he insisted that retaking Siachen during Phase II of the Kargil Op would be a cinch as 'Hindu banyas can't fight!! Oh yeah! No he knows!!

@Xeric


This is an Indian pre 1984 map

After Indian occupation, maps changed, before that, India considered it as a part of Pakistani held Kashmir.

So much for the "thence North".

Indian map? Really? If it was an India map, it would not have referred to Azad Kashmir as 'AZAD KASHMIR' as shown!! This is a Pakistani map! Epic fail!!

 

[Levina]

@Xeric


This is an Indian pre 1984 map

After Indian occupation, maps changed, before that, India considered it as a part of Pakistani held Kashmir.

So much for the "thence North".

1) This map is from Xeric's thread, show me the original source. It can not be an Indian map.

2) Even if the map is pre-1984 then you must remember that UN made a cartographic error in maps in 1967.

Indian map? Really? If it was an India map, it would not have referred to Azad Kashmir as 'AZAD KASHMIR' as shown!! This is a Pakistani map! Epic fa

Thanks!!
I reverse searched the image and found no source to this image other than Xeric's thread on pdf.