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A few days in India

ohhh please give me a break here...
Mumbai carnage u say... u may be right but what about

Samjhota express,
Baluchistan
firing across LOC
mukhti bani
downing of our atlantique in Sindh
Siachin incident
involvement in Karachi
and so on and so forth...

now lets be sane here.. stop this finger pointing attitude.... if i point my fingers to you then i am pointing three at my own self and if you point one at me well... u are also pointing 3 at your self. Point being both the countries have been active. When doing covert operations u try to hit where it hurts the most and inflicts the maximum damage. You call your suffering as the biggest loss and we call our's as the biggest misery since partition. you say you have been fooled and taken for granted many a times well guess what... we say the same as well.
The only difference is that we are a peace loving nation and our media does not start spewing garbage 24/7 for 12 months. Its always a D**k measuring contest in Indian media and one of the recent example that i can remember is the media report that Indian women not flying fighter jets and Pakistani women are etc etc...

I have been to India and i have had first hand experience of how we are treated and what we go through. do ask people visiting from India the same question and you would get a taste of the huge difference in the mentality across the two sides of the border. My personal assessment is that Indians have been fed misinformation by their media, the media unnecessarily carries a anti Pakistani stance regarding anything and everything. we can not expect any positive developments till that stops.

now i am not saying that whatever you say is true and i am also not saying that whatever i say is full truth either. So please stop this insane attitude and please try to move on. we as a nation are willing to take the 1st step towards peace but in case you are hoping that we will walk or crawl all the way while you stand and watch then that's a figment. Dream on please.

i will not indulge in any discussion or finger pointing here and would appreciate the same.
At the end of the day the point is about Mumbai.
Pakistanis landed in Mumbai and massacred over 100 people. Not Pakistani agents who had plausible deniability. But actual Pakistanis.

Unless there is Justice, there can be no movement. So either Pakistan Military gives up its proxy friends or India will return what Pakistan did back.
 
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fair enough... so lets seee...
indians came inside pakistan, fired on our aircraft, were filmed carrying a few pieces back to india and then later displaying it as an act within their territory....
indian navy officer is facing court martial for destroying a ship carrying innocent fishermen and making a scene out of it....
india releases ppl responsible for samjhota express...
india arrests truck drivers in kashmir unnecessarily and making a scene out of it...
indians have been caught in balochistan and pictures are also available with baloch separatists visitng india as guests..
ur PM boasted about mukhti bani and what was ur role in pak partition only a few months ago
Now i can go on for a full page here ..

please show me some actions on the points above and i will show you some concrete steps here as well. Till you are unwilling to take any steps... even to reciprocate a step initiated by us, plz dont expect us to walk or crawl towards peace while ur hands are clasped on ur chest. As i said if u or me point 1 finger at each other 3 will be pointed at one own self..
 
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Saleem Safi
- Wednesday, December 02, 2015



When you have no desire to develop relations even on Track I, it is indeed a daydream to have any hope of success for any Track II dialogues. I was quite clear about that. And yet I accepted the invitation to participate in a dialogue in Delhi that was to brainstorm Pakistan-India relations.

The invitation was extended to me by the Jinnah Institute, Islamabad and the Center for Dialogue and Reconciliation (CDR) in India. I accepted the invitation on the basis of two incentives: to acquire first-hand knowledge of India; and to see – after many years – the new India under Modi. I am very thankful to the Jinnah Institute that both objectives were achieved through their generous offer to participate in this event.

In the two-day dialogue held at The Claridges hotel in Delhi, the Pakistani delegation was headed by Sherry Rehman, the CEO of Jinnah Institute and vice president of the PPP. Other members on the delegation were former foreign secretary Aziz Ahmed Khan; former ambassador Shafqat Kakakhel; former foreign secretary and former Pakistan’s ambassador to India, Salman Bashir, Speaker AJK Assembly Shah Ghulam Qadir, Marvi Sirmed, senior journalist Zahid Hussain, Director Programs Jinnah Institute Hassan Akbar, program manager Safwan Ahmed – and yours truly.

The Indian delegation was composed of personalities like former foreign secretary Salman Haider, former ambassador S K Lamba, former Indian ambassador to Pakistan Satyabrata Pal, former chairman National Commission for Minorities Wajahat Habibullah, representative of the Communist Party from Occupied Kashmir Mohammed Yousuf Tarigami, a young intellectual from Srinagar Goher Gilani, famous journalist Siddharth Varadarajan, chief editor of The Citizen Seema Mustafa and from CDR, Shubhra Chaturvedi.

The dialogue consisted of four sessions, each dedicated to a broader theme. The themes discussed were: bilateral relations; Kashmir; Afghanistan; and the role of the media. The official minutes and report of this dialogue will be issued to media and governments by the Jinnah Institute and CDR. But I would like to share my own opinion and observations here with the readers. I did not just depend on what was said and discussed in the conference hall. Rather I tried to interact with as many persons – and classes – as was possible in this short time.

I spoke with Pakistan’s High Commissioner to India Abdul Basit on a one-to-one basis during lunch. I participated at a dinner hosted by the Pakistan embassy and tried to learn the opinion of the many hosts and guests that were attending the event. Along with Shah Ghulam Qadir I visited some markets and bazaars of Delhi and talked with people on the street, shopkeepers and taxi drivers.

What I have managed to conclude from this visit to India is that in the present conditions any effort to talk with India is futile. And this is not only because of Narendra Modi; I felt a widespread superiority complex in India regarding Pakistan. This is found equally among common citizens as well as in political leaders, intellectuals and media persons. They discuss all issues as part of ‘bilateral relations’. The message one gets is that initiation of any talks is something only Pakistan is in need of it.

The analysis is almost always in black and white – Pakistan all-sinners, India all-saints. Even playing cricket with Pakistan is something they consider to be a favour. Most importantly, now the foreign policy of India towards Pakistan is in the hands of Ajit Doval, India’s national security advisor, instead of the foreign office of India.

India’s foreign office too does not possess friendly feelings towards Pakistan. But Ajit Doval is directly related to what RAW is all about. Even in person, Doval holds a very negative image of Pakistan; this can be easily seen in his speeches and presentations.

Perhaps the most negative aspect in bilateral ties between India and Pakistan is the Indian media. Sustaining a war-like situation against Pakistan seems to be in fashion in the news media of India. Almost always, at the state level, first governments and then establishments try to use the media for such purposes. Eventually they become captives of the same media which then does not leave any peace options open for them. The same is the case in India.

Even if the Indian PM was Atal Bihari Vajpayee today, and not a person like Narendra Modi – even then the Indian media would not let him establish good relations with Pakistan. While the Pakistani media does air anti-India sentiments, we have a sizeable number of critics and analysts that advocate logic and balance. But in India there are very few critics available on foreign policy. Thus criticism of Narendra Modi, RSS and the debate after the Bihar election results are all discussed for their internal dynamics and not for their foreign impacts or merits.

In this context I see no possibility of constructive dialogue and progress over bilateral relations between Indian and Pakistan. After my visit to India, I am of the opinion that PM Nawaz Shari’s participation in the oath-taking ceremony of Modi, and asking for dialogue, was a mistake. The Ufa meeting and agreeing to its declaration was an even bigger mistake. And an even worse mistake would be to initiate any one-sided effort to resume dialogue.

Before this visit, I was of the opinion that Pakistan should not play cricket with India until a formal and written apology from the Indian side but now I feel Pakistan should refuse to play even in any third country. There should be only one option: the Indian team should play in Pakistan, otherwise we need not play at all.

National dignity and diplomatic strategy both demand that we now answer India in the same tone. We should restrict all other relations with India for now; and diplomatic relations should be kept at the minimum required level. Our Foreign Office wishes to include the Indian foreign minister at the ‘Heart of Asia Conference’ that is to take place next month in Islamabad to discuss the diplomatic possibilities over Afghanistan. I propose that only a casual invitation would be enough for Indian participation at the conference.

Over the issue of Kashmir, state institutions should not move an inch from their stand. However, instead of a daily rebuttal over the issue, it is better to wait silently for some time, as China did on Hong Kong and Taiwan. Such open and heated debates in the media on a daily basis – over cricket, national security advisors etc – could lead both governments towards an unwanted war. The length of this diplomatic pause with India, though, would depend on the policy response from India.

Pakistan, in the meanwhile, ought to concentrate over its internal security and economic issues. We can invest our energy in developing good relations and rapport with other regional and international powers; and most importantly to fight against all forms of extremism.

The only risk for a positive outcome of this proposed diplomatic pause could be non-state actors. We have to seal our borders and guard against all extreme elements. We have to ensure that no one from India, following Ajit Doval’s policy, is able to cross the border; and no one should cross the Indian border from our side even by mistake. Minimum relations with India could result in a prosperous Pakistan; but if India gains any chance to interfere in the internal affairs of Pakistan it would result in the diplomatic success of India against Pakistan.

The world already stands with India, so we have to stop its interference and media bashing. We have to improve our conditions and present our demands as and when there is a good chance to be noticed on the global stage.

The writer works for Geo TV.

A few days in India - Saleem Safi


We cannot dismiss this article entirely, but i get a feel of prejudice in this article, and our man saw what he wanted to see or what he wanted to hear.....

There should be only one option: the Indian team should play in Pakistan, otherwise we need not play at all.

Yeah, and he expect India to travel to pakistan,
 
.
Saleem Safi
- Wednesday, December 02, 2015



When you have no desire to develop relations even on Track I, it is indeed a daydream to have any hope of success for any Track II dialogues. I was quite clear about that. And yet I accepted the invitation to participate in a dialogue in Delhi that was to brainstorm Pakistan-India relations.

The invitation was extended to me by the Jinnah Institute, Islamabad and the Center for Dialogue and Reconciliation (CDR) in India. I accepted the invitation on the basis of two incentives: to acquire first-hand knowledge of India; and to see – after many years – the new India under Modi. I am very thankful to the Jinnah Institute that both objectives were achieved through their generous offer to participate in this event.

In the two-day dialogue held at The Claridges hotel in Delhi, the Pakistani delegation was headed by Sherry Rehman, the CEO of Jinnah Institute and vice president of the PPP. Other members on the delegation were former foreign secretary Aziz Ahmed Khan; former ambassador Shafqat Kakakhel; former foreign secretary and former Pakistan’s ambassador to India, Salman Bashir, Speaker AJK Assembly Shah Ghulam Qadir, Marvi Sirmed, senior journalist Zahid Hussain, Director Programs Jinnah Institute Hassan Akbar, program manager Safwan Ahmed – and yours truly.

The Indian delegation was composed of personalities like former foreign secretary Salman Haider, former ambassador S K Lamba, former Indian ambassador to Pakistan Satyabrata Pal, former chairman National Commission for Minorities Wajahat Habibullah, representative of the Communist Party from Occupied Kashmir Mohammed Yousuf Tarigami, a young intellectual from Srinagar Goher Gilani, famous journalist Siddharth Varadarajan, chief editor of The Citizen Seema Mustafa and from CDR, Shubhra Chaturvedi.

The dialogue consisted of four sessions, each dedicated to a broader theme. The themes discussed were: bilateral relations; Kashmir; Afghanistan; and the role of the media. The official minutes and report of this dialogue will be issued to media and governments by the Jinnah Institute and CDR. But I would like to share my own opinion and observations here with the readers. I did not just depend on what was said and discussed in the conference hall. Rather I tried to interact with as many persons – and classes – as was possible in this short time.

I spoke with Pakistan’s High Commissioner to India Abdul Basit on a one-to-one basis during lunch. I participated at a dinner hosted by the Pakistan embassy and tried to learn the opinion of the many hosts and guests that were attending the event. Along with Shah Ghulam Qadir I visited some markets and bazaars of Delhi and talked with people on the street, shopkeepers and taxi drivers.

What I have managed to conclude from this visit to India is that in the present conditions any effort to talk with India is futile. And this is not only because of Narendra Modi; I felt a widespread superiority complex in India regarding Pakistan. This is found equally among common citizens as well as in political leaders, intellectuals and media persons. They discuss all issues as part of ‘bilateral relations’. The message one gets is that initiation of any talks is something only Pakistan is in need of it.

The analysis is almost always in black and white – Pakistan all-sinners, India all-saints. Even playing cricket with Pakistan is something they consider to be a favour. Most importantly, now the foreign policy of India towards Pakistan is in the hands of Ajit Doval, India’s national security advisor, instead of the foreign office of India.

India’s foreign office too does not possess friendly feelings towards Pakistan. But Ajit Doval is directly related to what RAW is all about. Even in person, Doval holds a very negative image of Pakistan; this can be easily seen in his speeches and presentations.

Perhaps the most negative aspect in bilateral ties between India and Pakistan is the Indian media. Sustaining a war-like situation against Pakistan seems to be in fashion in the news media of India. Almost always, at the state level, first governments and then establishments try to use the media for such purposes. Eventually they become captives of the same media which then does not leave any peace options open for them. The same is the case in India.

Even if the Indian PM was Atal Bihari Vajpayee today, and not a person like Narendra Modi – even then the Indian media would not let him establish good relations with Pakistan. While the Pakistani media does air anti-India sentiments, we have a sizeable number of critics and analysts that advocate logic and balance. But in India there are very few critics available on foreign policy. Thus criticism of Narendra Modi, RSS and the debate after the Bihar election results are all discussed for their internal dynamics and not for their foreign impacts or merits.

In this context I see no possibility of constructive dialogue and progress over bilateral relations between Indian and Pakistan. After my visit to India, I am of the opinion that PM Nawaz Shari’s participation in the oath-taking ceremony of Modi, and asking for dialogue, was a mistake. The Ufa meeting and agreeing to its declaration was an even bigger mistake. And an even worse mistake would be to initiate any one-sided effort to resume dialogue.

Before this visit, I was of the opinion that Pakistan should not play cricket with India until a formal and written apology from the Indian side but now I feel Pakistan should refuse to play even in any third country. There should be only one option: the Indian team should play in Pakistan, otherwise we need not play at all.

National dignity and diplomatic strategy both demand that we now answer India in the same tone. We should restrict all other relations with India for now; and diplomatic relations should be kept at the minimum required level. Our Foreign Office wishes to include the Indian foreign minister at the ‘Heart of Asia Conference’ that is to take place next month in Islamabad to discuss the diplomatic possibilities over Afghanistan. I propose that only a casual invitation would be enough for Indian participation at the conference.

Over the issue of Kashmir, state institutions should not move an inch from their stand. However, instead of a daily rebuttal over the issue, it is better to wait silently for some time, as China did on Hong Kong and Taiwan. Such open and heated debates in the media on a daily basis – over cricket, national security advisors etc – could lead both governments towards an unwanted war. The length of this diplomatic pause with India, though, would depend on the policy response from India.

Pakistan, in the meanwhile, ought to concentrate over its internal security and economic issues. We can invest our energy in developing good relations and rapport with other regional and international powers; and most importantly to fight against all forms of extremism.

The only risk for a positive outcome of this proposed diplomatic pause could be non-state actors. We have to seal our borders and guard against all extreme elements. We have to ensure that no one from India, following Ajit Doval’s policy, is able to cross the border; and no one should cross the Indian border from our side even by mistake. Minimum relations with India could result in a prosperous Pakistan; but if India gains any chance to interfere in the internal affairs of Pakistan it would result in the diplomatic success of India against Pakistan.

The world already stands with India, so we have to stop its interference and media bashing. We have to improve our conditions and present our demands as and when there is a good chance to be noticed on the global stage.

The writer works for Geo TV.

A few days in India - Saleem Safi

With the loss of Bangladesh India has a 7:1 edge against Pakistan. The only way a numerically inferior opponent beats someone much large unless they have a technological edge. During the cold war Pakistan used America to close the gap in conventional military strength. With the end of the cold war Pakistan has lost its sugar daddy. They lost access to advanced conventional weapons at cut rate prices. Before you rail at Uncle Sam India still does not have unfettered access to advanced military technology from America and the West.

India used the cold war to build institutions and educate bulk of its middle class. Even an uncouth country bumpkin Indian politician understood the value of education more than a Sandhurst/Leavensworth educated military general.

With the end of the cold war India has used the IT boom to overtake Pakistan for good. It has given India a means to change its image of land with snake charmers, elephants and sanitation issues (BTW sanitation issues are still there). It has given Westerners a chance to see Indian code coolies do something productive. India makes more money from the IT boom than what you made in 60 years in foreign aid from Uncle Sam. It has given Indian politicians the power to resist any foreign intervention on issues like Kashmir.

Islamic fundamentalism does not help Pakistan. 9/11, finding Osama in Pakistan do not help. Every attack including the recent ones in California hurts. The more these attacks continue the caste ridden, politically dsyfunctional and messy India looks like a shining star in the eyes of Westerners.

As seen from the above there is a realisation that things will be better if Pak keeps things to the minimum with India - so what the hitch ? Just do it.

India has moved on without Pakistan. Whats holding Pak back ?

Pakistan is not sure what to do

They backed the Taliban to gain access to Central Asia. That has not worked out
You will find members that think the CPEC is their economic salvation
Chances of economic union with fellow Muslim states is decades away if it ever happens
 
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I think his observations are correct, although not sure about inference he draws from it. I dont blame though, Indians are currently very hostile to pakistan and as a pakistani its very difficult to have a positive feeling towards India.

So I guess we should just lie low and let time pass.
 
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National dignity and diplomatic strategy both demand that we now answer India in the same tone. We should restrict all other relations with India for now; and diplomatic relations should be kept at the minimum required level.

Source: A few days in India
Who's bothered? Pakistan should get real and understand that it cannot be put on the same pedestal as India. As far as India is concerned, Pakistan doesn't matter. It's just a bit player.

You will find members that think the CPEC is their economic salvation
Punjab, Sindh and Balochistan have already started fighting with one another for the spoils of the CPEC which may thus takes decades to fructify!!! :lol:
 
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