A divided nation | Peace or War with Taliban?

[PeaceGen]

And one more thing, "regular"/moderate Pakistani leaders and the people ruled by them; i've read many reports even outside western intelligence news outlets for years and years (at least since the decade I started doing political work to improve muslim's lives (and thereby those of my own peoples as well)) about how the Pakistani military regularly engages in small or even medium-sized border skirmishes with India, and trying their hardest to make it seem like the Indians started such nonsense, and also remain under the impression that their 'nuclear umbrella', together with the restraint of the Indians that is perceived perhaps as weakness by some Pakistani leaders, will prevent a large-scale or actual nuclear war between Pakistan and India when they 'probe the fence a bit'.

I'll do this sub-forum (and my regular hangout of world affairs and everything under it) a favor, and won't repeat this message too often (lets say up to 4 times a year, good asian intel agencies who *also* haven't come to harm me yet);

The real threat to Pakistanis comes from groups that impose social or lifestyle or "religious" (as they like to call 'm) rules on people who wouldn't choose those lifestyle rules if left a choice, by violent means (and possibly a persistent and determined, but in my analysis of all major religions on earth and their better documented histories, false claim to have a divine mandate (Allah's permission and encouragement)), but in my opinion, there is NO REAL THREAT from India, other than the ones some pakistani leaders are as-secretly-as-they-can creating, by poking the sleeping elephant too often and for too long (at some point in the future).

Thank you for keeping this thread on standstill for the timespan since my last post here, it shows you take my arguments seriously and are probably discussing it among your own, which is the only way to see actual improvement on the issue of your real national security issues.

I want you to know I've never been paid, in money or in services or in goods, for this political work I'm doing. I do this simply because I like a world in which I could bring a family of my own to all corners of it, instead of just a few, and to stop having to see violence on my mass media outlets that people here consider 'life on earth', but I know can be remedied within 100 years, 50 maybe even.

And I hope I have convinced you the taliban are FAR from the 'reformers against corruption' that they want to appear to be for you. Corruption will only get much worse under the taliban.
People of Pakistan, *you* are the government, and especially at each election. I can't yet provide you with a character-attribute list for good leaders, but the first item on that list is probably : "to have a severe allergy to all forms of greed{1}", and the second one: "to respect (especially the right to self-determination to the extent it does not harm others) all domestic and foreign (sub-)cultures, ever since childhood", and the third : "must never trust anyone blindly, but be willing to be moved to trust especially cultures other than his own by letting that other party provide evidence and establish a trustworhty trackrecord", and the fourth : "must have the courage and (office-)warrior skills{2}, to keep a fight against domestic corruption up forever by finding and motivating the right people to fight that fight (try it alone or without proper backup in ur region and ur as good as dead, i know)". The fifth: "Must protect free media, online honest freedom of speech, and whistleblowers (these are the last line of defense against nation-killing corruption).

With regular pakistani top political leaders now falling for the peacetalks ploy by the taliban, for reasons I can't understand in any way that leaves me with any respect for them, I'd like to suggest ordinary pakistanis to organize asap, and keep up, a series of 'grassroots' or 'underground'(secret (if necessary)) voting campaigns on the local AND national levels for your political and military and intelligence leaderships (as practically-non-paid new NGOs using whatever peaceful means they have, perhaps), to ensure that the people of especially Pakistan never re-elect anyone proving not to abide by a morality level that's at least as good as the five character attribute requirements I gave you in my previous paragraph.

{1} excluding quality tools to do their jobs with (but also holding the best price-performance ratio); armored cars and busses, with gunturrets on top operated remotely or by someone in the vehicle : no luxury for at least some Pakistani officials and ofcourse for their (top) leaders. A capable airforce to protect your soldiers' and officials' top leaders' planes, flares and all kinds of anti-takedown measures on those planes even, ain't greed. that's staying alive to do the job.

but at the same time, i have asked the world on several forums and in emails to it's governments and yesyes water-related NGOs and government agencies, 'why are we humans still depending on rain for farming, while we have even more intense regular flooding of some areas that could be pumped away to reservoirs in very dry but otherwise farmable land'.. if you want to stay in power the right way, politicians and other types of leaders of earth, you might want to invest in long distance water pipelines for farming (to drop food prices!) before you think how much you can get away with to spend on new fancy precious stone to slap on your next (government) palaces, metaphorically speaking. a desire for luxury items is *the ultimate* sign telling you that person should not have any power over other humans, and especially not from the very protected quarters of politics.

{2} i think the "always strive to stay secure and economically respected, without starting or promoting physical violence"-way is way better than all the "lie to win by violence" rules of war

 

[PeaceGen]

Next item on my list of things to think about: how would the regular/moderate/official Pakistani government and military and intel community, justify their invasion of taliban country to the locals there (with a lot more drones over that area 24/7/365, for up to over 100 years) and their takeover of the taliban (religious) schools, and the forced retirement (peacefully or not) of taliban 'clerics', the choice for all taliban soldiers to police according to moderate islamic rules (without any physical punishments beyond imprisonment (and not in large degrees of solitary confinement)), or to be forced to find a job where they are not violent towards others, ever.
This is not an easy question, as the rights to self-defence and self-governance will be put forth by the taliban (without being able to explain why others have no right to defend themselves against Taliban aggression other than those 'orders from Allah' which i'll explain once more in the next paragraph to be false to a pure evil level), and the taliban will likely try to play the victim card if you're succesfull...
However, given the RECENT public pakistani taliban leaders' quote "we seek to impose our version of Islam on all of Pakistan", plus the pakistani-taliban 'way' of funding themselves (heroin production and sales at least, and the frequent violence ordered by taliban clerics and performed by taliban soldiers against civilians in their jurisdiction, makes that task (explaining your justification to the local taliban (youth)) quite a bit easier. In fact, I don't think you need more reason than that, although my next paragraph *CAN* be made clear to misinformed peoples like the taliban area natives, by encouraging and protecting them to have sattelite tv, internet, and encouragement to actually objectively absorb at least the more important screwups and achievements of other cultures than their own on earth. Youtube ban? Facebook ban? Not such good ideas, folks. To stop the kind of stupidity that is eh, threatening to drive all/most of humanity off the proverbial cliffs, you need to encourage people to read every opinion of any other human on earth, except opinions that promote violence.

So, extermist muslims leaders (like the pakistani taliban) have thoroughly proven themselves utterly uncapable of any remotely good governance, i strongly suspect it won't be extremely hard to convince the pakistani-taliban area locals of that (especially if you commit to over 100 years of effort), and extremists like the taliban claim Allah orders them to do as they do (including all their lying to seem of better moral quality to you regular Pakistanis)....

Once again: why would a God(=Allah), allow humans all over earth to worship and serve Him in sometimes quite different ways around the globe, allow churches to split up into significantly different types of churches (the splitup of the catholics to produce the protestant christian churches was marked by more statues getting killed than humans, btw, back in the 1700s or something), and then order the followers of those different ways to honor our creator to kill eachother? what kinda God is that? not a good God, i could call such a God EVIL, but that's just my opinion as an intelligent self-aware creature.. And folks, I don't think God(=Allah, to me) is evil. I think the evil is in our own human genome and perhaps (often?) catalyzed(=enabled to grow) by demons.

It's long overdue for more moderate muslim leaderships to start fighting on the frontlines where their efforts would improve their own wellbeing and that of the citizens they claim to protect, rather than eh continuing to do the opposite, or hoping to end up with an empire that was too large to survive even in ancient times with significantly less humans on earth, no planes/busses, and no internet and no TV...
In Pakistan, this would mean that actually administrating and policing your own tribal areas, is much much better than picking fights with 2 sleeping elephants (India & China, although I can see China doing more 'fence probing' than India), or 'trying to gain influence' over other countries (especially by sponsoring violence or harboring or tolerating groups in your jurisdiction (that's still ALL of Pakistan, in my opinion and the opinion of nato leaders after any attack by such groups in any member state of nato) willing to play terror strike force for you..).

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@peacefan; I read through both your posts above and am trying to understand them (but that has to do with me, not you )
I hope that you, your family and your people find the Peace and Prsosperity that they need and deserve. Ameen.

 

[PeaceGen]

@peacefan; I read through both your posts above and am trying to understand them (but that has to do with me, not you )

If you're left with any questions about this issue, I'm willing to honestly try to answer those..

I hope that you, your family and your people find the Peace and Prsosperity that they need and deserve. Ameen.

Thank you, I wish the same for you and all other humans

 

[GoodBoy]

Pakistan has created a monster and in the process of destroying that monster it would have to give a BIG sacrifice.

But Pakistan is not even sure if it wants/can destroy the monster.

 

[VCheng]

A Divided Nation Against A United Enemy


For the purpose of this article I would try to be as neutral as possible yet I admit that personal opinions would somehow spill over, yet, I believe something like this is the need of the hour.
...................

The stance of war needs to take into account that the TTP has thrived because of our divisions and societal fissures which they have infected and are thriving. It’s not one institution that is responsible it is everyone in one way or another. You can do your part and convince your countrymen that you stand with them, not the Talibs. That you will support them in case anything happens, you’ve their backs. Also, your government needs to have no qualms about what you want. Protest, on the streets, not facebook to let these people know who’s boss and they want. Do your part then expect something. Are you aware that your stance is harder and thus requires more input?
Show everyone your mettle as a nation this is our generation’s 65 don’t let it turn into 71...............

What a great article, that I read with interest.

Your concluding paragraph above makes a great appeal, which leads to the natural question: If such protests and support against the Talibs is not forthcoming, as appears to be the case, what does it bode?

 

[RescueRanger]

I would extend it further and say that we need to re-indoctrinate ourself with more tolerance that is independent of faith. Like perhaps Israel and Turkey. We need to make every Pakistani feel safe and proud to be Pakistani.

^ This, i would second this.

 

[niaz]

Jamaat Islami is finally showing her true anti Pakistan colours. Hakimullah Mehsood Shaheed, Osama Bin Laden Shaheed!

With so many JI activists having Al-Qaida links, it is hardly surprising that MQM has asked for its banning.

Thank Heavens Punjab University management is finally shrugging off its lethargy and fighting the Jamiat Tulaba menace from the campus.

Here is a poignant editorial from Dawn.

The knives are out: IJT on the rampage in Lahore


Published 2013-12-04 07:47:44
THE arrests at a Punjab University hostel and the subsequent ugly street protest by the Islami Jamiat-i-Talaba in Lahore on Monday were the latest eruptions of tensions that had been brewing for a while now. Simply put, the Punjab University has in recent times been trying to cleanse its campuses of the influence the Jamiat was allowed to build up over time. The violent rioting on Monday was a statement of the Jamiat’s resolve to resist its dethroning. The latest round in the PU-IJT tussle had its origins in an incident last week at the Law College in Lahore in which some Jamiat activists were accused of browbeating a couple of teachers. The incident itself was cause enough for a probe and solution. But in the given circumstances, it was more reason for what is being widely seen as intensification of the campaign to rein in the Jamiat, an action that has been justly demanded over the years to free the Punjab University from fear and the unwritten code imposed on it.

It is not too difficult to see what distinguishes the current Punjab University administration from its predecessors who were always reluctant to move against the Jamiat’s excesses. The IJT’s parent body, the Jamaat-i-Islami, has taken rabid stands on crucial national and global issues such as the war against militancy. There are routine revelations which project the Jamaat as not just a sympathiser of the militants but as their partner. In recent days, reports of the nabbing of a Jamiat worker in Lahore with alleged Al Qaeda links and the death of a former, prominent Jamiat member from Karachi in a drone attack in the tribal areas enhance the portrayal of the JI and IJT as radicals. This image in the context of power and its demands also makes it impossible for the PML-N to maintain good relations with its old JI ally. The separation of the two parties raises the prospect of a real purge that has been long in coming.
The knives are out: IJT on the rampage in Lahore - DAWN.COM

 

[FaujHistorian]

Jamaat Islami is finally showing her true anti Pakistan colours. Hakimullah Mehsood Shaheed, Osama Bin Laden Shaheed!

With so many JI activists having Al-Qaida links, it is hardly surprising that MQM has asked for its banning.

Thank Heavens Punjab University management is finally shrugging off its lethargy and fighting the Jamiat Tulaba menace from the campus.

Here is a poignant editorial from Dawn.

The knives are out: IJT on the rampage in Lahore[/url]

Pakistan's government funded universities are cesspools of crime, religious and ethnic bigotry.

But sadly

noone cares to accept the truth that a poor nation like Pakistan is spending billions on higher education

to do what?

train terrorists and goons.

It is not a law and order issue. Rather a funding and scholarship issue.


Anywhere else in the world let's say China, S. Korea, USA, UK etc would have resulted in permanent shutdown and ZERO funding for such terror training centers.

But not in Pakistan.


So unless we change the funding mechanism, and give students 100% scholarships only if they show good results, pro-Pakistan character, and avoid criminal activities.

only

then we can stop this maddness.


But our educated elite are asleep at the national wheel

thus we continue to see

death and destruction instead of progress and education.

 

[niaz]

First a report on the DI Khan Jail break published in the Dawn of today.

Quote

D.I. Khan jailbreak: damning report

FROM THE NEWSPAPER

Published 2013-12-30 07:11:58

IN the years that Pakistan has been mired in militancy and terrorism, there has been no dearth of detractors maintaining that it is the inefficiencies of different arms of the state — if not outright collusion — that has allowed matters to reach such a pass. This charge is hotly denied, by state representatives who say they have no part in the mess, and by a citizenry that cannot digest the levels of ineptitude on part of the leadership that this would imply. Unfortunately, there is no denying that with distressing frequency, evidence of such monumental incompetence surfaces that questions cannot but be raised about the state’s levels of political will and operational ability. In this category must be included the revelations about July’s Dera Ismail Khan jailbreak, when militants managed to free over 250 prisoners without so much as a peep from the law enforcement and security apparatus.

The report of the inquiry commission tasked with investigating the incident, the contents of which were made public by this newspaper yesterday, constitutes an indictment of the security and law enforcement agencies. It ought to have served as a wake-up call of no minor proportions at all levels. Instead, it was shelved — to the utter lack of surprise of those familiar with the head-in-the-sand approach in Pakistan. The report notes that over two dozen Mehsud militants, accompanied by several more from Punjab, Uzbekistan and other places, managed to travel all the way from South Waziristan to D.I. Khan. Once there, they set up pickets at 10 strategic locations around the prison, cutting off security and law enforcement personnel’s access to the area. Shockingly, most of these pickets were located not far from police and military checkpoints. The militants blew the prison’s gates open with rocket-propelled grenades and over the next 45 minutes or so conducted a “methodical” search of the cells and barracks, freeing prisoners and even identifying and executing four members of a minority sect. Having done so, they dispersed; some headed back to South Waziristan, others melted into the city. All this was achieved with virtually no interference from the security and law enforcement apparatus, which had in the preceding days been beefed up, according to the report.

It could be argued that a jailbreak on such a large scale would have been difficult to counter — except that not only had a similar incident taken place before, this time there was even intelligence that an attack was imminent. Clearly, no lessons were learnt from the assault in Bannu last April, claimed by the TTP, which resulted in nearly 400 prisoners being sprung from jail. Further, in the case of D.I. Khan, the civilian and security administrations had been made aware of the threat and had even made efforts to ward it off. If this was the state of preparedness of the authorities in an area which has long borne the brunt of militancy and terrorism — one that has, with great fanfare, been announced as having been brought back into the fold of the state’s writ — what the situation must be in other areas can only be guessed at. Most worryingly, perhaps, the report notes that about half an hour into the assault on the jail, a militant came onto the police wireless frequency to taunt the law enforcers and to say the city would be razed to the ground. The confidence is astounding; the image conjured is of a savvy, well-equipped militant network running merry rings around a helpless state and security apparatus.

The report refers to the Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan as a “Frankenstein” and warns that as long as “even a semblance of these outfits” exists, the violence will continue unabated and all strengthening of the security apparatus will be in vain. Is the state refusing to look the threat in the eye? Is it shying away from recognising the enormity of the problem? Or, even more disturbingly, is it impotent, unable to muster the strength and intelligence that the task requires? On the answer to this question hinges the future of the country.

D.I. Khan jailbreak: damning report FROM THE NEWSPAPER S

Unquote.

It is obvious that politicians that are proposing dialogue with the enemies of Pakistan and the monsters who have declared that they are unwilling to talk with GOP, are not acting in the best interest of Pakistan?

 

[PeaceGen]

I, and my western 'superiors', would greatly appreciate, a brief statement of what Pakistani officials hope to achieve by fostering their local Taliban like they are... You got us puzzled allright....

Issuing such a statement here or in any international newspaper, will do just fine..

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

On July 8, 2010, Gen Pasha categorically stated that foreign powers are involved in terrorist activities inside Pakistan.

He said, “The foreign powers are involved in terrorism and destabilization of the country.” During a briefing in the National Security Committee session headed by Senator Raza Rabbani, DG ISI Ahmed Shuja Pasha said that the western powers are involved in the terror activities inside the country. “The US policy against terrorism is under consideration and the changes will be brought with time in accordance with the national interest,” he said.

This is not new claim inside Pakistan, many Pakistani political commentators have been speaking publicly about this phenomenon. It is alleged that terrorist activities inside Pakistan were actively carried out by the CIA, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW – India’s external intelligence agency) and the MOSSAD for different purposes. Chief among those, is changing the public perception of the War on Terror in the favour of the United States. There are confirmed reports that to achieve its objectives the CIA hired the services of at least a dozen Afghan warlords inside Afghanistan and provided through them arms and finances to militants in FATA and Swat to carry out murders and devastation in the country.

It was like a double-edged sword not only to get the Army launch attacks against Taliban on Pakistani side of the border but also to give a message to the ISI that the CIA can use the Pakistani Taliban against their own security forces. Thousands of people have been killed in Pakistan due to terror attacks since the beginning of war on terror.

There is no doubt that a military campaign is necessary against extremists in the country but it must be supported by social, economic and political change with political reforms being at the top of agenda. The future of Pakistan’s role in the war against terrorism is dependent on its political and economic ties with the US. Pakistan is a part of global war on terrorism and was not only defending itself, but also protecting the entire world form the catastrophe of terrorism and extremism, therefore, needs strategic partnership with the rest of the world to foster peace and stability in the region, promote economic stability and address energy needs.

 

[Khan_patriot]

Pakistani State is responsible for all the mess. Its simple, the state policy of stretagic depth has backfired as TTP.
Trying to make Afghanistan as its backyard, Taliban movement was supported by our establishment. To support afghan taliban against brilliant warlord ahmad shah masood, thousands of madrassa students of fazlur rehman and sami ul haq were handed over guns and sent to afghanistan. Nek mohammad, baitullah mehsud, hafiz gul bahadur, maulvi nazir all served in the afghanistan against northren alliance, they were sponsered by pakistani establishment. When you gave up on taliban and took action against them, your assets within tribals areas took arms against you and within few years they started calling themeselves TTP.
Is'nt army the biggest terrorist in the region? They turned kashmir into warzone by sending punjab-based militants there, many of whom are now part of TTP. ISI also played big role in turning tribal areas and kpk into madrassa-istan. These madrassas served as recruiting centres for afghan jihand and taliban movement for aims and stretagies of ISI.
Its ISI/army which needs to be fixed and control.

wow are these your personal words because I felt like I tuned into that Kamran Khan show or something.....stop blaming the army which is the only thing between the taliban and a talib orgy everywhere in the country....

 

[PeaceGen]

On July 8, 2010, Gen Pasha categorically stated that foreign powers are involved in terrorist activities inside Pakistan.

He said, “The foreign powers are involved in terrorism and destabilization of the country.” During a briefing in the National Security Committee session headed by Senator Raza Rabbani, DG ISI Ahmed Shuja Pasha said that the western powers are involved in the terror activities inside the country. “The US policy against terrorism is under consideration and the changes will be brought with time in accordance with the national interest,” he said.

This is not new claim inside Pakistan, many Pakistani political commentators have been speaking publicly about this phenomenon. It is alleged that terrorist activities inside Pakistan were actively carried out by the CIA, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW – India’s external intelligence agency) and the MOSSAD for different purposes. Chief among those, is changing the public perception of the War on Terror in the favour of the United States. There are confirmed reports that to achieve its objectives the CIA hired the services of at least a dozen Afghan warlords inside Afghanistan and provided through them arms and finances to militants in FATA and Swat to carry out murders and devastation in the country.

It was like a double-edged sword not only to get the Army launch attacks against Taliban on Pakistani side of the border but also to give a message to the ISI that the CIA can use the Pakistani Taliban against their own security forces. Thousands of people have been killed in Pakistan due to terror attacks since the beginning of war on terror.

I read the wikipedia article on Gen. Pasha, and consider him a reliable source..

What would you want from the US, aside from stopping the alledged meddling in your nation's affairs?

There is no doubt that a military campaign is necessary against extremists in the country but it must be supported by social, economic and political change with political reforms being at the top of agenda.

How is the discussion in Pakistan going on the subject of reforms? I suppose there are those that want to become more moderate, and others more fundamentalist? What's the ratio between these two groups?

The future of Pakistan’s role in the war against terrorism is dependent on its political and economic ties with the US. Pakistan is a part of global war on terrorism and was not only defending itself, but also protecting the entire world form the catastrophe of terrorism and extremism, therefore, needs strategic partnership with the rest of the world to foster peace and stability in the region, promote economic stability and address energy needs.

I couldn't agree more...



I have tried to find more newsreports about false-flagging by the CIA in Pakistan, but I couldn't find many reports at all on the subject - hardly any in fact, and they weren't very detailed.

The advice i can bring to you good Pakistanis who like me desire an end to false-flagging, is to expose the false-flagging in english language newspapers, WITH a statement of what you want to change in the future..

 

[ibrarahmed79]

We people are lost in this world money can buy us out the west is doing a good job to keep us busy