A bunch of chickens better than EU armies, says Juncker,calls again for common EU Army

[Armstrong]

US and EU sanctions are already crippling Russia. The Russian economy is predicted to fall to only 1.1 trillion this year due to ruble crash and GDP contraction of -4.7%.

Meanwhile EU economy is 18+ trillion and USA economy is 17+ trillion.

Russia doesn't stand a chance against the economic might of USA and EU.

Thats probably true but then again Iran held out for a decade or more...if Putin really is as mad as people make him out to be...who knows maybe Russia would too. Plus European economies are inter-connected with each other and whereas in the long-term they can move away from each other....in the short-term it could be fairly difficult to isolate Russia and not take some hits in the process !

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I know Russia isn't immune to nukes,i was being sarcastic because people always argue that nobody will fight for Eastern European countries and risk getting nuked by Russia like the opposite couldn't be true:as in why would Russia risk getting nuked in return for some Eastern Euro countries that are now EU,NATO members.

Um, so why was Russia able to annex Crimea, and no one even seriously considered a military response?

Like the opposite couldn't be true:as in why would Russia risk getting nuked in return for some Eastern Euro countries that are now EU,NATO members.

In what world would anyone nuke Russia for Eastern Europe?

They already ruled out any military response for the annexation of Crimea.

Nobody wants to commit suicide like that.

 

[flamer84]

Um, so why was Russia able to annex Crimea, and no one even seriously considered a military response?



In what world would anyone nuke Russia for Eastern Europe?

They already ruled out any military response for the annexation of Crimea.

In what world would Russia nuke anyone for Eastern Europe ? Russia isn't even capable of defeating the whole of Ukraine and maintaining an occupation there by itself.Even without the US conventional EU armies can trash a Russian campaign,there's not even a contest in that.

Crimea and Ukraine are non NATO/non EU,the rest of Eastern Europe is a different story.Even little Estonia will be defended with full force.Failure to do so will mean the failure of US and Western European global network of alliances.

 

[Transhumanist]

Um, so why was Russia able to annex Crimea, and no one even seriously considered a military response?

Because Europe wasn't obligated to come to Ukraine's defense. It doesn't have a mutual defense treaty, even the treaty the US signed with Ukraine when Ukraine relinquished its nuclear weapons was non-binding:

The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.

The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.

Why didn't China come to Ukraine's defense? They signed the treaty too, albeit in a more limited manner.

Under the political agreement, the signatories offered Ukraine "security assurances" in exchange for its adherence to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum bundled together a set of assurances that Ukraine already held from the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) Final Act, United Nations Charter and Non-Proliferation Treaty.

The signatories - that means China as well. We all failed, assuming we are holding nations to the same standard. But the agreement was non-binding so no one failed; no one was obligated to defend Ukraine.

You can find the conditions of the Budapest Memorandum here:

http://www.cfr.org/arms-control-dis...t-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484

Or here if you trust Wikipedia:

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

In what world would Russia nuke anyone for Eastern Europe ? Russia isn't even capable of defeating the whole of Ukraine and maintaining an occupation there by itself.Even without the US conventional EU armies can trash a Russian campaign,there's not even a contest in that.

Crimea and Ukraine are non NATO/non EU,the rest of Eastern Europe is a different story.Even little Estonia will be defended with full force.Failure to do so will mean the failure of US and Western European global network of alliances.

Europe (France and the UK) didn't have to defend Ukraine as per the Budapest Memorandum, let alone Romania or Norway. All this talk about Ukraine is not valid. Any criticism of Europe's response comes from a lack of understanding of the Budapest Memorandum. I think Europe handled the situation right. Ukraine isn't part of NATO or the EU, we don't have to defend them.

I wouldn't welcome Ukraine's addition to NATO and the EU though.

 

[Ceonwulf]

Um, so why was Russia able to annex Crimea, and no one even seriously considered a military response?.

If someone annexed Brunei would we care to stop them? I don't think so.

Same goes for Crimea/Ukraine. The West really doesn't care too much about it, they just don't want Russia to get the idea that it can invade a NATO or EU country.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Crimea and Ukraine are non NATO/non EU,the rest of Eastern Europe is a different story.Even little Estonia will be defended with full force.Failure to do so will mean the failure of US and Western European global network of alliances.

Do you know the Philippines is one of America's closest allies (their former colony), and they have had a full "mutual defense treaty" with America for over half a century?

But what happened when China seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012?

What did America do when their treaty ally was losing territory to China?

Nothing, they came and asked us if they could borrow more money:

Hillary Clinton pleads with China to buy US Treasuries - Telegraph

Even little Estonia will be defended with full force.

Do you actually believe that UK/France/Germany/America would fight a nuclear war with Russia over Estonia?

Basically commit suicide for a nation most Americans couldn't even point out on a map?

No chance. Just like Ukraine, Georgia, or the Philippines, they will sit back and issue "harsh words". That's win-win for them, their allies become even more dependent on them, and they don't have to put themselves at risk.

 

[Gabriel92]

Only France and UK have serious armed forces left in Europe. The rest are very weak with little capability.
.

Others European countries have respectable/strong armed forces = Spain,Italy,Germany for exemple. (though they don't have nukes)

 

[Transhumanist]

Others European countries have respectable/strong armed forces = Spain,Italy,Germany for exemple. (though they don't have nukes)

Norway, Sweden, and Finland too:

Nordic Defense News, pictures, videos and history | Page 17

 

[flamer84]

Do you know the Philippines is one of America's closest allies (their former colony), and they have had a full "mutual defense treaty" with America for over half a century.

But what happened when China seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012?

What did America do when their treaty ally was losing territory to China?

Nothing, they came and asked us if they could borrow more money:

Hillary Clinton pleads with China to buy US Treasuries - Telegraph



Do you actually believe that UK/France/Germany/America would fight a nuclear war with Russia over Estonia?

Basically commit suicide for a nation most Americans couldn't even point out on a map?

No chance. Just like Ukraine, Georgia, or the Philippines, they will sit back and issue "harsh words". That's win-win for them, their allies become even more dependent on them, and they don't have to put themselves at risk.

I ask again ? Will Russia fight a nuclear war for Estonia ? Would they get anihilated for Latvia ?

It's not about Estonia,it's about NATO and its failure if one single member isn't defended.the Phillipines is a whole different story.Despite your rhetoric ,small Baltic countries can discriminate against Russian ethnics and get away with it even today.If Estonia falls,the EU as an entity falls,NATO falls ,the whole European geopolitical scheme .

Yours is an immature,childlish approach,you seem to be living in a different world and have no clue about the intricasies of international politics.Russia has lost it's former sattelites,has lost it's empire and she's fighting a war of survival at its gates.1,5 million citizens nations(Estonia) openly discriminate Russian ethnics while being direct neighbours of Russia and they aren't touched because they're NATO members.....and this is is the reality,not some mighty Russian bear kicking *** all over the world,this is just a hunted bear,surrounded by hunting dogs in his lair (after being chased from the forest that was once his),desperately fighting for survival.And it will loose this fight,Russia failed to develop by using the money when energy resources were expensive and in high demand and now will pay the price.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I ask again ? Will Russia fight a nuclear war for Estonia ? Would they get anihilated for Latvia ?

It's not about Estonia,it's about NATO and its failure if one single member isn't defended.the Phillipines is a whole different story.Despite your rhetoric ,small Baltic countries can discriminate against Russian ethnics and get away with it even today.If Estonia falls,the EU as an entity falls,NATO falls ,the whole European geopolitical scheme .

Yet Russia was able to annex parts of Ukraine and Georgia in the past few years alone.

America's mutual defence treaty ally the Philippines lost territory to China in 2012 and they didn't even spare a few seconds to stop asking for loans.

North Korea sunk a South Korean warship killing over 100+ naval personnel and they didn't do anything either.

America could flatten NK in a heartbeat without even risking their own soil. Yet they did nothing, and you think they will fight a nuclear war with Russia for countries that most Americans couldn't even point out on a map?

Yours is an immature,childlish approach,you seem to be living in a different world and have no clue about the intricasies of international politics.Russia has lost it's former sattelites,has lost it's empire and she's fighting a war of survival at its gates.1,5 million citizens nations(Estonia) openly discriminate Russian ethnics while being direct neighbours of Russia and they aren't touched because they're NATO members.....and this is is the reality,not some mighty Russian bear kicking *** all over the world,this is just a hunted bear,surrounded by hunting dogs in his lair (after being chased from the forest that was once his),desperately fighting for survival.And it will loose this fight,Russia failed to develop by using the money when energy resources were expensive and in high demand and now will pay the price.

You seem to be describing your own approach to this discussion.

Like I said, America is NOT going to risk fighting a nuclear war for Ukraine/Georgia/South Korea/Philippines, they have already proven that they prefer to sit back and watch.

America is a VERY clever country, why fight when they can get others to fight each other? The result is that Ukraine/Georgia/South Korea/Philippines all become even more dependent on America, and America doesn't have to face any risk at all, they can just sit back and collect all the benefits.

America gains, Russia gains, China gains. It is Ukraine/Georgia/Philippines who ended up losing territory.

 

[Transhumanist]

Norway isn't an EU member though. How would you fit into this? Would you just try and become an honorary member like Sweden is in NATO?

But it is a contributing member to the EU's collective defense; both as a NATO member (which will see it come to the defense of other European NATO partners) and as a contributing force in the EU's Nordic Battle Group (which would see Norway contribute to the EU's defense).

Norway has negotiated an opt-in to participate, even though it is not an EU member state.

Nordic Battle Group

Norway is equally concerned about the safety and security of Europe. It chose to participate in EU collective defense, despite its not being an EU member state. It picks up Denmark's slack.

Denmark has opted out of the Common Security and Defence Policy of the EU, hence all battlegroups.

 

[jhungary]

Yet Russia was able to annex parts of Ukraine and Georgia in the past few years alone.

America's mutual defence treaty ally the Philippines lost territory to China in 2012 and they didn't even spare a few seconds to stop asking for loans.

North Korea sunk a South Korean warship killing over 100+ naval personnel and they didn't do anything either.

America could flatten NK in a heartbeat without even risking their own soil. Yet they did nothing, and you think they will fight a nuclear war with Russia for countries that most Americans couldn't even point out on a map?



You seem to be describing your own approach to this discussion.

Like I said, America is NOT going to risk fighting a nuclear war for Ukraine/Georgia/South Korea/Philippines, they have already proven that they prefer to sit back and watch.

America is a VERY clever country, why fight when they can get others to fight each other? The result is that Ukraine/Georgia/South Korea/Philippines all become even more dependent on America, and America doesn't have to face any risk at all, they can just sit back and collect all the benefits.

America gains, Russia gains, China gains. It is Ukraine/Georgia/Philippines who ended up losing territory.

Name me one reason why US have to get involved in Crimea?? There are no Obligation, even the Ukrainian themselves decide not to fight, so why US and NATO have to get involved??

About the Philippine, the Defence pact was suspended after the Filipino kick US out in 1991, US only have to be bound with MDT with the Philippine, which article I of said treaty said the treaty should not be use to settle a disputed area unless UN was involved. And UN was not involved in the dispute of the island, hence US have no say on any intervention.

Had the Situation did not change in 1991, and the force agreement is still in effect where the US effectively protect the Philippine and it's sovereignty, regardless of dispute. Then the US may be able to do something. In Fact, China taking the disputed island work in US favour, as now the Philippine signed the new EDCA nd Philippine are once again entrenched to US camp.

 

[xenon54 out]

Um, so why was Russia able to annex Crimea, and no one even seriously considered a military response?

But Russia is paying a very high price for Crimea though.

 

[general_yermolov_stalin]

Europe , bah. No threat to us. Already the EU economy is suffering heavily. Russia is in process of badly needed diversification which was stalled due to the atlanticist fools under Chubais,Medvedvev etc.

The recession in Russia is a necessity to diversify from dependence on oil and gas exports . Maybe much higher taxes on western imports are also needed. Necessity brings innovation .

 

[Ceonwulf]

Europe , bah. No threat to us. Already the EU economy is suffering heavily. Russia is in process of badly needed diversification which was stalled due to the atlanticist fools under Chubais,Medvedvev etc.

The recession in Russia is a necessity to diversify from dependence on oil and gas exports . Maybe much higher taxes on western imports are also needed. Necessity brings innovation .

Russia has talked about diversifying its economy for the last 25 years. After the Russian economic crisis in 1998 Russian leaders promised to diversify economy. However in 2015, Russian economy is still not diversified.

Russian economy is a joke for a country of 140 million people with the largest landmass on the planet.

50 years from now Russian population is forecast to shrink to around 100 million.

Russia's glory days are over.