8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[Dalit]

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041 conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.

Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.

INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
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Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).

I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
"Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.

Thank God! They are aware...

 

[chou.wong]

sorry,i have just known we are best friends ,but i don't know how much do you know about us ,so i just wanna show something in our defence forum!

 

[Muhammad Omar]

sorry,i have just known we are best friends ,but i don't know how much do you know about us ,so i just wanna show something in our defence forum!

No Prob you can share in Chinese Defence Forum

 

[Penguin]

China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards..

Sources in support of this claim?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

What Pakistan actually wants 1-2 of these subs these types :

China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.



Any chance of Pakistan coming into this joint venture?:

“China is also pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,” the RT reporter today said.

Now China has six Type 094 SSBNs.

Maybe China cannot direct sell a SSBN to Pakistan, but China could definitely provide the assistance when Pakistan needs to build one.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Now China has six Type 094 SSBNs.

Maybe China cannot direct sell a SSBN to Pakistan, but China could definitely provide the assistance when Pakistan needs to build one.

They can lease it though.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

They can lease it though.

For now, we don't have many SSBNs for ourselves, wait until we got 12+ SSBNs.

Or maybe China can offer the refurbished Type 092, can Pakistan take it?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

For now, we don't have many SSBNs for ourselves, wait until we got 12+ SSBNs.

Or maybe China can offer the refurbished Type 092, can Pakistan take it?

It is not what I say on Pakistan taking it or not taking it. Pakistan Navy would require atleast 2 SSBN's if it has to effectively conclude that it has second strike capability.

On the other hand China requires to effectively project power in the Indian Ocean, also secure the transit lines in Arabian sea and protect Gawadar which would be supplying all the material required to the Western provinces of China. China would be seen as an aggressor if her ships are patrolling so the most viable option is to ask Pakistan to do this atleast in the Arabian Sea.

So IMO China would go to any extent in this regards.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

It is not what I say on Pakistan taking it or not taking it. Pakistan Navy would require atleast 2 SSBN's if it has to effectively conclude that it has second strike capability.

On the other hand China requires to effectively project power in the Indian Ocean, also secure the transit lines in Arabian sea and protect Gawadar which would be supplying all the material required to the Western provinces of China. China would be seen as an aggressor if her ships are patrolling so the most viable option is to ask Pakistan to do this atleast in the Arabian Sea.

So IMO China would go to any extent in this regards.

At the moment, we need at least the six SSBNs like the Type 094 to form a regular strategic patrol cycle. Two during the maintenance, two during the training, while two during the patrolling.

BTW, for now, we can only lease or offer the Type 092.

Pakistan could first use the Type 092 to train those professional personnel about how to operate a SSBN.

The training stage is also a long cycle, just look our training to operate the fixed-wing aircraft carrier, it will also take us 3-4 years to fully accomplish it.

 

[The SC]

Sources in support of this claim?

Old news!

According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials initially believed the submarine was diesel-powered. In March 2007 Jane's Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute. Yuan is using an AIP engine of 100 kw in power, and is probably equipped with 2 such AIP engine. The Gotland submarines use 2 V4-275R stirling AIP units (each rated 75 kw). The larger Yuan obviously needs more powerful AIP units.
...
Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

Yuan Type 039A Type 041

 

[Penguin]

Old news!

According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials initially believed the submarine was diesel-powered. In March 2007 Jane's Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute. Yuan is using an AIP engine of 100 kw in power, and is probably equipped with 2 such AIP engine. The Gotland submarines use 2 V4-275R stirling AIP units (each rated 75 kw). The larger Yuan obviously needs more powerful AIP units.
...
Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

Yuan Type 039A Type 041

"China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards.."

an aip system (no further details)
as quiet as > other modern < diesel/electric powered submarines (like? > 209/1500 is modern but not the best)
etc etc

Not terribly impressed

 

[The SC]

"China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards.."

an aip system (no further details)
as quiet as > other modern < diesel/electric powered submarines (like? > 209/1500 is modern but not the best)
etc etc

Not terribly impressed

It was already somehow impressive to US officials in 2004, imagine today! can you?
Type-209 does not have AIP, you can talk about type-214 if you want some analogy.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

At the moment, we need at least the six SSBNs like the Type 094 to form a regular strategic patrol cycle. Two during the maintenance, two during the training, while two during the patrolling.

BTW, for now, we can only lease or offer the Type 092.

Pakistan could first use the Type 092 to train those professional personnel about how to operate a SSBN.

The training stage is also a long cycle, just look our training to operate the fixed-wing aircraft carrier, it will also take us 3-4 years to fully accomplish it.

According to the the requirements of PN a better option is Type-093 Shang Class then the Type 092. Type 093 two are produced and 2 more under production. This could also be available on lease.

 

[monitor]

NEW CHINESE SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN
WHY DO THEY MATTER?

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted April 7, 2015
9

S-20

IHS Janes

The S-20 SSK was first offered at the IDEX 2013 arms show in the UAE; it is a quiet 2,600 SSK capable of firing cruise missiles and torpedoes, in addition to inserting special forces and mines. Pakistan's Chinese subs are likely to be based off the S-20 design.

On March 31st, Pakistan announced plans to buy eight new Chinese-made submarines. The submarines are likely to be based of the Type 39B Yuan SSK, of which the export version is designated the S-20. The S-20 displaces about 2,300 tons, but air independent propulsion (AIP) is not standard to the submarine. AIP a closed off propulsion system, like a gas compression Stirling engine or fuel cells, that doesn't require a separate oxygen supply It is a must have for modern SSKs, allowing them to stay underwater for up to four weeks without using noisy snorkels to recharge batteries (often SSK batteries have enough charge to last several days at most). Pakistan's S-20s are likely to have AIP since its Agosta 90B submarines already have the technology; the PLAN's 12 Yuan SSKs all have sophisticated AIP systems.

Type 39C SSK

www.top81.cn

The Type 039C Yuan SSK is the latest Chinese conventional submarine, launched in 2014. It features a redesigned conning tower, as well as better sonar. The Yuan class's AIP system makes it China's most capable conventional submarines.

The significance of the plan is that it Pakistan badly needs to modernize and expand its submarine fleet, especially given rival India's acquisition of domestic, French and Russian conventional and nuclear submarines. Overall, Pakistan's 2015 naval plan calls for twelve submarines. The Pakistani Navy currently operates five French Agosta submarines, with two of its Agosta 70s 40 years old and in need of replacement soon.

Babur Cruise Missile

Pakistan Military Review

The Babur LACM has a range of 750-1000km, and is equipped for both conventional and nuclear attack. It is likely that it will form the basis of a submarine launched LACM, potentially giving Pakistan an underwater second strike nuclear capability.

The other important features of the S-20 purchase stems from its weaponry and its effect on regional balances of power. The S-20 has a standard load of six torpedo tubes, able to fire up to 18 torpedoes and missile canisters, which include the 533mm Yu-6 heavy torpedo, naval mines and 300km range YJ-82 anti-ship missile. Such capabilities could prove quite important in any conventional war scenario in the region. In addition, Pakistan is working to modify its nuclear capable Babur land attack cruise missile for launch from its current Agosta 90B submarines, so the new S-20s would almost certainly also be designed to carry nuclear armed Babur missiles. In addition to being able to launch nuclear strikes from previously inaccessible areas like the Bay of Bengal, an underwater nuclear deterrent would finally give Islamabad a credible second strike capability.

 

[Zarvan]

NEW CHINESE SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN
WHY DO THEY MATTER?

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted April 7, 2015
9

S-20

IHS Janes

The S-20 SSK was first offered at the IDEX 2013 arms show in the UAE; it is a quiet 2,600 SSK capable of firing cruise missiles and torpedoes, in addition to inserting special forces and mines. Pakistan's Chinese subs are likely to be based off the S-20 design.

On March 31st, Pakistan announced plans to buy eight new Chinese-made submarines. The submarines are likely to be based of the Type 39B Yuan SSK, of which the export version is designated the S-20. The S-20 displaces about 2,300 tons, but air independent propulsion (AIP) is not standard to the submarine. AIP a closed off propulsion system, like a gas compression Stirling engine or fuel cells, that doesn't require a separate oxygen supply It is a must have for modern SSKs, allowing them to stay underwater for up to four weeks without using noisy snorkels to recharge batteries (often SSK batteries have enough charge to last several days at most). Pakistan's S-20s are likely to have AIP since its Agosta 90B submarines already have the technology; the PLAN's 12 Yuan SSKs all have sophisticated AIP systems.

Type 39C SSK

www.top81.cn

The Type 039C Yuan SSK is the latest Chinese conventional submarine, launched in 2014. It features a redesigned conning tower, as well as better sonar. The Yuan class's AIP system makes it China's most capable conventional submarines.

The significance of the plan is that it Pakistan badly needs to modernize and expand its submarine fleet, especially given rival India's acquisition of domestic, French and Russian conventional and nuclear submarines. Overall, Pakistan's 2015 naval plan calls for twelve submarines. The Pakistani Navy currently operates five French Agosta submarines, with two of its Agosta 70s 40 years old and in need of replacement soon.

Babur Cruise Missile

Pakistan Military Review

The Babur LACM has a range of 750-1000km, and is equipped for both conventional and nuclear attack. It is likely that it will form the basis of a submarine launched LACM, potentially giving Pakistan an underwater second strike nuclear capability.

The other important features of the S-20 purchase stems from its weaponry and its effect on regional balances of power. The S-20 has a standard load of six torpedo tubes, able to fire up to 18 torpedoes and missile canisters, which include the 533mm Yu-6 heavy torpedo, naval mines and 300km range YJ-82 anti-ship missile. Such capabilities could prove quite important in any conventional war scenario in the region. In addition, Pakistan is working to modify its nuclear capable Babur land attack cruise missile for launch from its current Agosta 90B submarines, so the new S-20s would almost certainly also be designed to carry nuclear armed Babur missiles. In addition to being able to launch nuclear strikes from previously inaccessible areas like the Bay of Bengal, an underwater nuclear deterrent would finally give Islamabad a credible second strike capability.

I think Pakistan is going for two types one is Type 032