5th generation AMCA on backburner

[Echo_419]

The Mk.1 will be the trainer, the Mk.2 will be a formidable little frontline fighter and will be what the IAF wants. This would have been known for some time considering the AFSQRs that are there.


I really don't see how. Is everyone failing to comprehend that it is only the 40 MK.1s that will be used for LIFT roles, the MK.2s that will be ordered in 150+ units will be used in combat ops. I've long wanted HAL to develop a variant of the LCA to be used as a supersonic LIFT for the IAF so this is win-win.

This shouldn't be news to anyone- the Mk.1 was always going to be a sub-par product that wasn't quite what the IAF wanted.

Perhaps they can export LCAmk 1 as a LIFT too,there was a offer by Germans if i am not wrong or was it a lollipop for us to select Typhoon

 

[ANPP]

The Mk.1 will be the trainer, the Mk.2 will be a formidable little frontline fighter and will be what the IAF wants. This would have been known for some time considering the AFSQRs that are there.


I really don't see how. Is everyone failing to comprehend that it is only the 40 MK.1s that will be used for LIFT roles, the MK.2s that will be ordered in 150+ units will be used in combat ops. I've long wanted HAL to develop a variant of the LCA to be used as a supersonic LIFT for the IAF so this is win-win.
This shouldn't be news to anyone- the Mk.1 was always going to be a sub-par product that wasn't quite what the IAF wanted.

First, there is order of only 89 mk2. And it will increase only over the grave-yard of mmrca deal. And if Rafale come than mk2 will not be front line fighter and there will be no future of mk3 as proposed by ADA. So if Rafale will come than mk2 role will be just like the mk1.
And no one will cut FGFA order on-behalf of LCA.

Second, mk1 will be a fighter. But not front line. Saga of Marut is again repeated in LCA. It inducted in force, but as least priority plane. Even right now these plane will be given to new comers in IAF. LCA will be learning platform for them that's why it is iterated that it will be used as a LIFT. But it certainly is better than any LIFT. Forces uses their older fighters for that purpose in all the world. But that is again lifeline for IAF as right now older migs are in use for that purpose which not only risky and taking lives of pilots but also reduced training hours of pilots due to older platforms.

Again they will give true multirole skill and experience to pilots as older migs either efficient in ground attack or dogfight.
( When MMRCA lanched, i want to see Rafale in IAF fleet, but now I want to see lca as work-horse of IAF, giving Dassault another set-back.)
Ye time nhi kitni kutti cheese hai.

 

[Vinayak Tiwari]

Don't make your assessment on jus one stupid article we seen many on MMRCA, INS kolkata getting delayed many as you remember last year.its too early to say anything Amca program will be delay but It will be delivered by believable timeline which is 2025.

2025 might be the IOC year. Take 2029 as FOC (worst case scenario as Tejas MK I)

 

[NKVD]

2025 might be the IOC year. Take 2029 as FOC (worst case scenario as Tejas MK I)

NO Lca was a fighter from scratch Whereas AMCA Was To Be Developed On Basis of technologies And Experience which we get under TOT from both MMRCA And FGFA Projects So the Induction process Might get faster

 

[Nova2]

Its funny to see them running from one project to another,which is certainly affecting the future projects, it is bad idea to put AMCA on the backburner ,if they knew they lacked resources they should have tried to get in more scientist to help in these projects,and built more facilites if they lack any, trying to sideline the project is like creating a roadblock,one created by its own people and not by an outsider. still have to wait for an official confirmation on this development.

 

[sancho]

NO Lca was a fighter from scratch Whereas AMCA Was To Be Developed On Basis of technologies And Experience which we get under TOT from both MMRCA And FGFA Projects So the Induction process Might get faster

Just that ADA neither designed MMRCA or FGFA, nor is DRDO developing radar and engines for MMRCA and FGFA, so AMCA has no relation to them, unless you use either the same techs and avionics or base AMCA on a similar design to FGFA. None of this will happen, not because it is not possible or not a good choice, but because ADA / DRDO want to show it off as an own and seperate development. Their whole point in developing and proposing it for IAF is, that they are not involved in the FGFA development. So they don't want to be left out from the NG fighter developments, but instead of choosing IN and a NG carrier fighter as the base, they want to offer IAF what they already will have. So don't expect AMCA to be a fast development, if ADA / DRDO want to keep developing it, by making the same mistakes they did in LCA too.

 

[NKVD]

@sancho that's pity I though M88 can be used in Amca as it's matches requirements as for Radar what happened to AESA one which LRDE Making ??.My hopes were rised when HAL said the LCA mk2 will be direct production model and they improve induction of MK2. Well hope that MOD think of something why not Co-develop this aircraft with partner Japanese or any other. We need fifth gen mate I don't know why we wasted time on this stupid crap mk2 we again enough why not start directly develop Amca.

 

[sancho]

@sancho that's pity I though M88 can be used in Amca as it's matches requirements as for Radar what happened to AESA one which LRDE Making ??.My hopes were rised when HAL said the LCA mk2 will be direct production model and they improve induction of MK2. Well hope that MOD think of something why not Co-develop this aircraft with partner Japanese or any other. We need fifth gen mate I don't know why we wasted time on this stupid crap mk2 we again enough why not start directly develop Amca.

The M88 in it's current form will not be enough and even the upgraded one might not be sufficient. DRDO is still hoping to fit the AESA they develop for LCA MK2 into AMCA, but that needs time, which gives them nothing to gain from for the AMCA development so far. We don't need another 5th gen fighter for IAF, we only need one for IN, that's why LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN!

 

[NKVD]

The M88 in it's current form will not be enough and even the upgraded one might not be sufficient. DRDO is still hoping to fit the AESA they develop for LCA MK2 into AMCA, but that needs time, which gives them nothing to gain from for the AMCA development so far. We don't need another 5th gen fighter for IAF, we only need one for IN, that's why LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN!

2x M88 is enough for rafale why not Amcaas both are medium range fighters
The requirement is for 1.8 Mach which 2xM88 deliver.what happen to happen plan to develop kaveri with snecma

 

[ANPP]

2x M88 is enough for rafale why not Amcaas both are medium range fighters
The requirement is for 1.8 Mach which 2xM88 deliver.what happen to happen plan to develop kaveri with snecma

M88-2 is not a proper option for AMCA because according to IAF's ASR....
1> Engine should be 90 kn thrust range atleast.
2> All essential systems including engine, radar etc. should be in house developed.

K10 engine was canceled in 2010 on plea of low work share and tot problems. K10 was proposed in range of 90kn thrust. But IAF rejected the project..
1> As core of m88 was already developed so there is no knowledge gain for GTRE.
2>Complete tot would be given after 15 years later. IAF said that upto that time this technology will be outdated.

While they ignore the profit of K10. K10 size was similar to the IN20 engine of mk1. So there would be minimum changes in lca mk1, so we will get mk2 in minimum time. Original timeline of 2015 for mk2 flight was because of this. While integration of GE414 needed few changes in lca as engine has larger dimensions. And now timline is 2017.

DRDO also proposed to integrate k10 engine in mig 29. Which would solve IAF problems. Also same engine could be used for flight testing of initial AMCA prototypes, even can power intial batch of AMCA as no one know the where proposed Kaveri 2 is.
So you can see LCA is just the 21th century version of Marut, which was lost due to the proper engine and IAF conspiracy.

And if you are conspiracy theory lover than it is for you.
In 2009, a high ranking official (forget the name) of GTRE jailed due to suspicion of corruption. Although case was later removed from him. But he was the key person in the negotiation of K10. And in 2010, K10 was canceled.

 

[skynet]

Sorry for such noobish question but what is LIFT ??

 

[ANPP]

The M88 in it's current form will not be enough and even the upgraded one might not be sufficient. DRDO is still hoping to fit the AESA they develop for LCA MK2 into AMCA, but that needs time, which gives them nothing to gain from for the AMCA development so far. We don't need another 5th gen fighter for IAF, we only need one for IN, that's why LCA for IAF, AMCA for IN!

DRDO is quite confidant on avionics front as they had worked too many projects in past.

There is no AMCA for IN. HOW CAN you built a a/c for a customer who even doesn't decide that how his carrier should be. Don't forget it is IAF who put ASR to ADA. What IN did is shown " interest" only.

Development of LCA and FGFA will fruit full to AMCA. Different development projects fullfills each others requirement as you can see, communication set of LCA are directly taken from Dhruv heli. You can see too many subsytems for AMCA is already developed. One major,reason for LCA failure was that development was sequential for its subsystems while it is parrelal incase of AMCA.
But again experience of FGFA will come by the way of HAL. How HAL will exploit the profits of FGFA is in question. But one thing is sure if HAL concentrate in FGFA than AMCA will be delayed. Initial flight of AMCA is schedule in2017-2018. Not too far from now.

Sorry for such noobish question but what is LIFT ??

GOOGLE Kr le bhia. But for stopgap knowledge for you, they are AJT with limited weapons firing ability.

 

[NKVD]

M88-2 is not a proper option for AMCA because according to IAF's ASR....
1> Engine should be 90 kn thrust range atleast.
2> All essential systems including engine, radar etc. should be in house developed.

K10 engine was canceled in 2010 on plea of low work share and tot problems. K10 was proposed in range of 90kn thrust. But IAF rejected the project..
1> As core of m88 was already developed so there is no knowledge gain for GTRE.
2>Complete tot would be given after 15 years later. IAF said that upto that time this technology will be outdated.

While they ignore the profit of K10. K10 size was similar to the IN20 engine of mk1. So there would be minimum changes in lca mk1, so we will get mk2 in minimum time. Original timeline of 2015 for mk2 flight was because of this. While integration of GE414 needed few changes in lca as engine has larger dimensions. And now timline is 2017.

DRDO also proposed to integrate k10 engine in mig 29. Which would solve IAF problems. Also same engine could be used for flight testing of initial AMCA prototypes, even can power intial batch of AMCA as no one know the where proposed Kaveri 2 is.
So you can see LCA is just the 21th century version of Marut, which was lost due to the proper engine and IAF conspiracy.

And if you are conspiracy theory lover than it is for you.
In 2009, a high ranking official (forget the name) of GTRE jailed due to suspicion of corruption. Although case was later removed from him. But he was the key person in the negotiation of K10. And in 2010, K10 was canceled.

GTRE Can issue RFI. Options are Many Like Eurojet,GE or Usual Russians as partner We already abandoned Snecma A they wanted that the Kaveri's Kabini core be replaced by a Snecma ECO core which is the heart of the Snecma M88 that powers the Dassault Rafale.But I hope The MoD, the IAF and DRDO must ensure that Snecma is not allowed to manoeuvre around technology transfer obligations this time over as it has tried to do for the Kaveri improvement contract..
In fact given the massive order that Snecma will get from the MMRCA contract it in any case makes no sense to bring it in separately for improving the Kaveri.

 

[kurup]

Sorry for such noobish question but what is LIFT ??

Lead In Fighter Trainer

From wiki ,

Lead-in fighter training (LIFT) utilises advanced jet trainer aircraft with avionics and stores-management capability that emulate operational fighter planes, to provide efficient training in combat scenarios with reduced training cost compared to moving straight to operational conversion.The on-board avionics system may be linked to ground-based systems, and together they can simulate situations such as infrared or radar guided missile, interceptors, air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft batteries, radars, chaff and flare countermeasures and collision warnings, in low or dense electronic warfare environments. Systems may also be able to re-enact true-to-life combat situations

 

[ANPP]

GTRE Can issue RFI. Options are Many Like Eurojet,GE or Usual Russians as partner We already abandoned Snecma A they wanted that the Kaveri's Kabini core be replaced by a Snecma ECO core which is the heart of the Snecma M88 that powers the Dassault Rafale.But I hope The MoD, the IAF and DRDO must ensure that Snecma is not allowed to manoeuvre around technology transfer obligations this time over as it has tried to do for the Kaveri improvement contract..
In fact given the massive order that Snecma will get from the MMRCA contract it in any case makes no sense to bring it in separately for improving the Kaveri.

There is no need of co-develop engine. We don't need engine either for LCA or AMCA.