5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost ! Chinese Ping Pong ?

[Gessler]

Typical clueless brainwashed indian take a look at this

China Claims Air Supremacy With Its New J-20 Stealth Fighter

A close look at China's J-20 stealth fighter, by Washington think tank The Jamestown Foundation, calls the plane a "game changer," that will render all air defense in the region obsolete.

With no refueling of the J-20, Japan, South Korea, and former Air Force bases in the Philippines will all be open to attack; with refueling, United States operations in Guam become easily acquired targets.




This capability allows China to take full control of both "island chains" that form the country's self-defined, maritime defense perimeter.

The study suggests that J-20s will be the tactical equal of U.S. F-22A Raptors as well as F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, and be capable of delivering large "glide bombs" that will "remain unseen through the whole delivery maneuver, effecting complete surprise."

With no radar arrays capable of picking up a stealth fighter, the J-20 will be undetectable to all air defense systems in the U.S., and on all its allied bases in the Asia-Pacific region.

U.S. options for dealing with the J-20 in the air are limited to the 158-plane, F-22 fleet that has been grounded since May 3 due to faulty oxygen systems that cause pilots to lose consciousness at high altitude.

There is currently no allocation in the defense budget to develop "counter stealth" radars in the U.S.


Read more: China Claims Air Supremacy With Its New J-20 Stealth Fighter - Business Insider

Bwahahahahahahaah.....

China Claims Air Supremacy With Its New J-20 Stealth Fighter

China can claim whatever it wants.

As of the US think tank guy...hmm, pretty nice way to scare Washington to release more funds for defence, no?

What you don't understand is that US think tanks (and even USAF generals sometimes) often resort to
these kind of articles and shows to scare their high command into releasing more funds for their ongoing
programs and for their allies.

Back in Cope India 2004, IAF MiG-21s defeated USAF F-15Cs (I think they were F-15Cs) 9 to 1 !!

But we know that in a real world combat scenario, this would not be possible. These are the mind games
played by US persons who will try, no matter what, to achieve their goals through asymmetric ways, if necessary.

Secondly, J-20 may work against F-22/35 but it will fail against PAKFA.

 

[Serpentine]

are u era??

Yes I am.

 

[Echo_419]

Can you name one aircraft program that has not had delays or cost escalation? LCA or F-35 come to mind?

When changes and modifications are introduced cost and delays occur, in this case India has proposed dozens of 'improvements' to the pak-fa, with that comes further design work, validation, and testing.

We have heard conflicting reports about the pak-fa, with that said, this is just more unsubstantiated claims.

It think you are right
I don't know much about Millitry Technology
But if you build something new with New technologies With new Features
Which has not been builded before
There are supposed to be delays,cost escalation,problems other wise how could you build a completely new thing & not even Fail once
Simple & Plain logic

 

[FarazUSA]

ToIlet

Russia and India are discussing the establishment of a fighter of the 5th generation without fail

Ð*Ф и Индия обсуждают создание истребителя 5-го поколения без сбоев | Ð*ИА Новости

Russia and India are discussing the establishment of a fighter of the 5th generation without fail

A source close to the talks, said that deviations from the schedule of talks between Russia and India to create a fifth-generation fighter is not.

MOSCOW, July 15 - RIA Novosti. No deviations from the schedule negotiations on a package of agreements associated with the joint production of a fifth generation fighter between Russia and India is not, told RIA Novosti on Monday, a source close to the negotiations.
On the eve of the Indian newspaper Times of India quoted a source in the Ministry of Defense reported that the signing of the contract for the development work on the Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter (PMI / FGFA) is delayed because of the increased price of the project by the Russian side.
"This kind of publication associated exclusively political considerations rather than business. Project is profitable both countries, investment - 50 to 50, so any increase in prices and a slowdown in negotiations is not" - said the source.
Meanwhile, a source told the Indian edition, remains a very small chance that the contract for the work on the MIT will be signed in the fiscal years 2013-2014. According to him, the time frame will be revised, with the Defense Ministry set up a committee of experts, technicians and financial experts who will be engaged in checking the validity of value growth.
According to the newspaper, despite the delay in signing the contract with the Russian Federation, India still will not accept the U.S. proposal to buy the F-35 Lightning-II, since a large amount of money already invested in the project of MIT and India can not afford to maintain two similar programs, both from a financial point of view and from the point of view of the organization of technical support.
The agreement on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October 2007 in Moscow. It is the largest joint project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation. In December 2010, FSUE "Rosoboronexport" company "Sukhoi" and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) signed a contract for the development of conceptual and technical design of aircraft.
At the heart of the Indian "perspective multirole fighter" laid a Russian fighter of the 5th generation "Sukhoi T-50" or PAK FA with the structural modifications to the conditions of the air forces of India. Initially, the Ministry of Defence of India has made a request for 166 single rooms and 48 double machine, but later decided to buy only single.

 

[Gessler]

ToIlet

Russia and India are discussing the establishment of a fighter of the 5th generation without fail

Ð*Ф и Индия обсуждают создание истребителя 5-го поколения без сбоев | Ð*ИА Новости

As always, Indian journalists sensationalize everything for the sake of page value. And the Chinese...
oh god! The Chinese literally jump with joy!

What we need is a tight leash around their necks.
@ChinaToday

Russia is attacking us!! Help!

 

[gambit]

Typical clueless brainwashed indian take a look at this

China Claims Air Supremacy With Its New J-20 Stealth Fighter

A close look at China's J-20 stealth fighter, by Washington think tank The Jamestown Foundation, calls the plane a "game changer," that will render all air defense in the region obsolete.

With no refueling of the J-20, Japan, South Korea, and former Air Force bases in the Philippines will all be open to attack; with refueling, United States operations in Guam become easily acquired targets.




This capability allows China to take full control of both "island chains" that form the country's self-defined, maritime defense perimeter.

The study suggests that J-20s will be the tactical equal of U.S. F-22A Raptors as well as F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, and be capable of delivering large "glide bombs" that will "remain unseen through the whole delivery maneuver, effecting complete surprise."

With no radar arrays capable of picking up a stealth fighter, the J-20 will be undetectable to all air defense systems in the U.S., and on all its allied bases in the Asia-Pacific region.

U.S. options for dealing with the J-20 in the air are limited to the 158-plane, F-22 fleet that has been grounded since May 3 due to faulty oxygen systems that cause pilots to lose consciousness at high altitude.

There is currently no allocation in the defense budget to develop "counter stealth" radars in the U.S.


Read more: China Claims Air Supremacy With Its New J-20 Stealth Fighter - Business Insider

You should learn to read your sources. But then again, you did typical of the Chinese members here -- no reading.

The Jamestown Foundation did no such 'study'. The article is a reprint from Carlo Kopp, which have been debated and found technically wanting. Not just here but just about everywhere else.

If this is the extent of your claimed 'expert' status in low radar observable bodies, we have nothing to fear from the J-20.

 

[gambit]

Regarding Kopp's old claim that there is no 'counter-stealth' radar development, a rather ridiculous phraseology in the radar community, Kopp is flat out -- WRONG. I have alluded many times in the past how the US will -- WILL -- be able to detect radar low observable bodies.

The J-20 is D-O-A.

 

[rcrmj]

This is a more accurate ranking buddy

1. J20
2. F22
3. F35
4. FGFA
5. PAKFA

This is a bit over stretched
the more reasoning order is
1.F-22
2.J-20
3.F-35
4.J-31
5.PAK-fa

and I wont put FGFA in as you know when a country cannot even develop a decent 3rd gen fighter that will influence the project, and then plus their ever delay tradition with zero know-how regarding stealth design, AESA radar and turbofan engine techs, so their FGFA is destined to be another laughing stock just like the 3rd gen upgrade LCA as of now

 

[knightmare]

This is a bit over stretched
the more reasoning order is
1.F-22
2.J-20
3.F-35
4.J-31
5.PAK-fa

and I wont put FGFA in as you know when a country cannot even develop a decent 3rd gen fighter that will influence the project, and then plus their ever delay tradition with zero know-how regarding stealth design, AESA radar and turbofan engine techs, so their FGFA is destined to be another laughing stock just like the 3rd gen upgrade LCA as of now

Thanks for clarifying that...the first list did appear a bit over-stretched with China able to design and field a plane (which is their first non-copied plane, hopefully) which was better in all respects when compared with 2 countries with over 100 years of aviation history. Now it is only claiming to beat only one of them (namely, russia).

 

[ChinaToday]

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design

China’s under-development J-20 combat aircraft recently demonstrated its missile-launch mechanism, which the Chinese media tout as a simple but “more efficient” design than that of the American F-22.

J-20 number 2002, one of the two prototypes that have been made known to the public, carried a short-range air-to-air missile (AAM) aft of the air intake. The missile, identified as China’s newly developed PL-10, was shown in a video inside the starboard intake weapons bay before being moved outside the airplane by an ejection system. The door of the bay then closed, leaving the missile outside, but still attached to the airframe.

This arrangement is said to allow the missile to be fired in the shortest time possible. In the F-22 design, the door of its side internal weapons bay has to remain open for the launch of a missile, thus possibly compromising its stealth capability. By contrast, the J-20 could stay stealthy throughout the missile-launch process by keeping the bay door closed.

Despite the Chinese media’s acclaim for the J-20’s missile launch mechanism, Chen Kuo-ming, senior editor with the Taiwan-based Defence International magazine, said what’s more important is whether the J-20 could fire short-range AAMs from off-boresight angles as acute as those possible from the F-22. For the moment, the PL-10 does not seem to be comparable to the AIM-9X AAM of the F-22 in respect to off-boresight capability.

The J-20 is expected to begin air-to-air weapons firing tests soon. It carries two short-range PL-10s, one in each air-intake bay, and six to eight medium-range P-12s in the main internal weapons bay below the mid-fuselage.

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design | Aviation International News

 

[ChinaToday]

China’s new stealth fighter’s missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

In order to preserve their stealthiness and keep the RCS (Radar Cross Section) as low as possible, radar-evading planes rely on weapons bay: bombs and missiles to be fired are kept inside the bays until it’s time to use them.

For instance, the F-35 can carry one AIM-120D (AIM-120C8), on a trapeze : when needed, the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile is lowered into the airstream on the open bomb bay door, and ejected.

F-22 Raptors use canted trapeze to put the AIM-9 Sidewinder seeked into the airstream to achieve a lock on the target as the side bay doors are open.

Once the missile is fired, the bay doors close up.

Obviously, such method requires the stealth plane to fly with the open bay doors for a certain amount of time, a condition that can limit the aircraft performance, maneuverability, and increases the overall plane’s RCS, with a temporary exposure of the aircraft to the enemy radars.

Something that can be quite lethal in a Within Visual Range scenario.

The problem is to be partly solved with the use of missiles featuring the Lock On After Launch capability. With this kind of missile (available on the Raptor when the AIM-9M will be replaced by the AIM-9X Block II) the bay doors remain open just the time it is needed to eject the missile into the airstream.

However, China might have found a clever solution to the problem, as the latest images of the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter jet, emerging from the Chinese Internet, seem to suggest.

Indeed, the second prototype of the aircraft features a missile deployment device on the side weapons bay which extracts the selected air-to-air missile and then closes the door to keep the reduced RCS.

Simpler and probably cheaper than the use of LOAL missiles, the J-20′s deployment device shows that Chinese engineers are not simply copying U.S. tech: if not improving it, they are at least troubleshooting some of the issues already faced by their American counterparts, with some clever ideas.

The Aviationist » China’s new stealth fighter’s missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

 

[LiberalAtheist]

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design

China’s under-development J-20 combat aircraft recently demonstrated its missile-launch mechanism, which the Chinese media tout as a simple but “more efficient” design than that of the American F-22.

J-20 number 2002, one of the two prototypes that have been made known to the public, carried a short-range air-to-air missile (AAM) aft of the air intake. The missile, identified as China’s newly developed PL-10, was shown in a video inside the starboard intake weapons bay before being moved outside the airplane by an ejection system. The door of the bay then closed, leaving the missile outside, but still attached to the airframe.

This arrangement is said to allow the missile to be fired in the shortest time possible. In the F-22 design, the door of its side internal weapons bay has to remain open for the launch of a missile, thus possibly compromising its stealth capability. By contrast, the J-20 could stay stealthy throughout the missile-launch process by keeping the bay door closed.

Despite the Chinese media’s acclaim for the J-20’s missile launch mechanism, Chen Kuo-ming, senior editor with the Taiwan-based Defence International magazine, said what’s more important is whether the J-20 could fire short-range AAMs from off-boresight angles as acute as those possible from the F-22. For the moment, the PL-10 does not seem to be comparable to the AIM-9X AAM of the F-22 in respect to off-boresight capability.

The J-20 is expected to begin air-to-air weapons firing tests soon. It carries two short-range PL-10s, one in each air-intake bay, and six to eight medium-range P-12s in the main internal weapons bay below the mid-fuselage.

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design | Aviation International News

For you to claim that this J-20 which is practically still on the drawing board to be better than our F-22 is rubbish first of all of the RADAR the F22 uses currently will out-preform any Chinese radar system made in the next 20 years, and from what I've read the stealth technology on the J-20 originated from the F117 wreckage in Serbia (which is our 1970's technology)

The F-22's avionics include BAE Systems E&IS radar warning receiver (RWR) AN/ALR-94, AN/AAR 56 Infra-Red and Ultra-Violet MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System) and the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The AN/ALR-94 is a passive receiver system to detect radar signals; composed of more than 30 antennas blended into the wings and fuselage that provide all around coverage. It was described by Tom Burbage, former F-22 program head at Lockheed Martin, as "the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft." It has a greater range (250+ nmi) than the radar, allowing the F-22 to limit its own radar emissions to maximise stealth. As a target approaches, the receiver can cue the AN/APG-77 radar to track the target with a narrow beam, which can be as focused down to 2° by 2° in azimuth and elevation.

The AN/APG-77 radar, designed for air superiority and strike operations, features a low-observable, active-aperture, electronically-scanned array that can track multiple targets in any weather. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to lower interception probability. Additionally, radar emissions can be focused in an electronic-attack capability to overload enemy sensors

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=876380&C=airwar


There's no way the Chinese can make a radar system capable of frying enemy defense systems.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Russia just do the right thing to ask more from India for it ambition to add or modify the PAK/FA, I'm pretty sure U.S did the same but because Indians are so scare to offend this new mentor to revail any cost for C-17 add-on or modifications American weapon system but they're allowed to insult Russia since now they're somebody else a$$ to kiss...I hope Russia will screw India more so India will have less money on defense against China

Is there a rational explaination why Russia want to sell Su-35 to China? maybe to pi$$ these ungracefull India

@Gambit: Stop bragging and flag cheerleading of other nation, how is Vietnam super-duper stealth fighter's development?, you should go back and design one for your country, hiding behind other's flag will not make you a proud hero.

 

[gambit]

China’s new stealth fighter’s missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

In order to preserve their stealthiness and keep the RCS (Radar Cross Section) as low as possible, radar-evading planes rely on weapons bay: bombs and missiles to be fired are kept inside the bays until it’s time to use them.

For instance, the F-35 can carry one AIM-120D (AIM-120C8), on a trapeze : when needed, the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile is lowered into the airstream on the open bomb bay door, and ejected.

F-22 Raptors use canted trapeze to put the AIM-9 Sidewinder seeked into the airstream to achieve a lock on the target as the side bay doors are open.

Once the missile is fired, the bay doors close up.

Obviously, such method requires the stealth plane to fly with the open bay doors for a certain amount of time, a condition that can limit the aircraft performance, maneuverability, and increases the overall plane’s RCS, with a temporary exposure of the aircraft to the enemy radars.

Something that can be quite lethal in a Within Visual Range scenario.

The problem is to be partly solved with the use of missiles featuring the Lock On After Launch capability. With this kind of missile (available on the Raptor when the AIM-9M will be replaced by the AIM-9X Block II) the bay doors remain open just the time it is needed to eject the missile into the airstream.

However, China might have found a clever solution to the problem, as the latest images of the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter jet, emerging from the Chinese Internet, seem to suggest.

Indeed, the second prototype of the aircraft features a missile deployment device on the side weapons bay which extracts the selected air-to-air missile and then closes the door to keep the reduced RCS.

Simpler and probably cheaper than the use of LOAL missiles, the J-20′s deployment device shows that Chinese engineers are not simply copying U.S. tech: if not improving it, they are at least troubleshooting some of the issues already faced by their American counterparts, with some clever ideas.

The Aviationist » China’s new stealth fighter’s missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

That is one of the dumbest comment on the technical aspects of RCS control. Whoever wrote that crap is saying the exposed missile with its fins creating corner reflectors, the worst thing that can be created, will not be a contributor to total RCS.

 

[SPFG]

F35 with a more internal fuel than F16 , slightly more payload outruns it CLEAN to the point they have to use afterburners. 220KN is slated to become 260 KN making it almost like a F15 clean and slow maneuverability like SH.
It behaves like F22 in TRANSONIC regimes after supersonic F22 becomes Agent 47.

Here's SH behaving like a TVC plane.

J20 was based on MIG 1.44 that was trashed for being less stealthy, less maneuverable and outdated than T 50. China even bought designs and the entire tail section.

Compare this, other than position of intakes , similarity is creepy. Companies sometimes do that. F14 maker sold thousands of spares to IRAN before closing shop.