5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost ! Chinese Ping Pong ?

[Gessler]

F35 is good too. Best avionics and great agility.

F-35 is indeed good, avionics are probably the best. Agility? Don't think so.

F22 is best. We come in at no 2.

PAK-FA beats F-22 in almost all aspects (performance, maneuverability/agility, situational awareness etc.),
except stealth.

PAK-FA also beats F-35 in all aspects except stealth (partially) and some avionics stuff.

PAK-FA would collectively be on the top one way or the other.

Except there haven't been any reports of problems with PAK-FA development. But to be honest I have not kept abreast of PAK-FA developments.

What have we seen as yet? Wait until VVS inducts a bunch of early production models, then we can see how loose a nut is, and how to tighten it, and how much it costs to tighten it.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

F-35 is indeed good, avionics are probably the best. Agility? Don't think so.



PAK-FA beats F-22 in almost all aspects (performance, maneuverability/agility, situational awareness etc.),
except stealth.

PAK-FA also beats F-35 in all aspects except stealth (partially) and some avionics stuff.

PAK-FA would collectively be on the top one way or the other.



What have we seen as yet? Wait until VVS inducts a bunch of early production models, then we can see how loose a nut is, and how to tighten it, and how much it costs to tighten it.

Not sure on this,collectively raptor still seems just somewhat better due to all aspect stealth and that awesome radar for NOW.
Im not concerned about this delay,every 5TH GEN FIGHTER PROGRAMME has hit delays,its inevitable to get quality product.

 

[Gessler]

Not sure on this,collectively raptor still seems just somewhat better due to all aspect stealth and that awesome radar for NOW.
Im not concerned about this delay,every 5TH GEN FIGHTER PROGRAMME has hit delays,its inevitable to get quality product.

F-22 is operational - no other 5GF is. That automatically makes it the No.1 plane that is operational today.

But I'm talking about the time FGFA actually gets operational - it will most certainly surpass all currently flying US stealth fighters.

 

[SPFG]

F-22 is operational - no other 5GF is. That automatically makes it the No.1 plane that is operational today.

But I'm talking about the time FGFA actually gets operational - it will most certainly surpass all currently flying US stealth fighters.

Actually bad misconception.

Here's why

RCS

F22 - .0001MS (Marble/pellet)

PAKFA/FGFA - .01 (cricket ball)

Supercruise -

F22 - 1.82 mach

PAKFA/FGFA - 1.5 mach

TVC -

F22 - 20 deg deflection Pitch

PAKFA/FGFA - 15 deg Pitch , 8 yaw.

Yaw is not as important for maneuver as pitch is.

RADAR -

The F-22´s AN/APG-77 has about 2000 -2200 receive modules and its an low observable AESA radar, which is able to track a 1 square meter target at a range of 240 km, it is considered the most advanced fighter radar, with the highest detection range.
There are some sources stating it´s range to be up to 270-300 km against a 1 m² target.

120 deg coverage azimuth and elevated.

The PAK-FA´s radar has 1500 elements it tracks a 2.5 m² target at 400 km.

120 deg azimuth only on using elevation bars.

The PAK-FA has full 360 degree radar coverage because of two L- band radars on the wingtips and a small X-band radar on its tail.

The Raptor can do so as well, through the use of sensor fusion and highly advanced passive sensors to provide 360 degree coverage ALR 94. But only 1 radar so only coverage till 120 deg.

SPEED -

F22 2575 km/h+

PAKFA/FGFA 2100 km/h

CEILING -

F22 - 19812 m

PAKFA - 20000 m

INTERNAL PAYLOAD -

F22 - 8

PAKFA/FGFA -10


MAX G LOAD -

F22 - −3/+9g

PAKFA/FGFA - −3/+9g

WING LOAD (LOWER BETTER) -

F22 - 375 kg/m²

PAKFA - 330-470 kg/m2


The following criteria boosts the Raptors agility:

Lower wing loading than the PAK-FA, but comparable thrust to weight
much bigger stabilizers
good aerodynamics
flight control surfaces on the F-22 are very large and give the F-22 the edge in the turn
2D larger Pitch deflection

The following criteria boosts the PAK-FAs agility:
good aerodynamics
3D TVC
Full moveable LERX
Full moveable vertical and horizontal stabilizers

 

[SPFG]

F-35 is indeed good, avionics are probably the best. Agility? Don't think so.



PAK-FA beats F-22 in almost all aspects (performance, maneuverability/agility, situational awareness etc.),
except stealth.

PAK-FA also beats F-35 in all aspects except stealth (partially) and some avionics stuff.

PAK-FA would collectively be on the top one way or the other.



What have we seen as yet? Wait until VVS inducts a bunch of early production models, then we can see how loose a nut is, and how to tighten it, and how much it costs to tighten it.

F35 = F16 High agility not so maneuverability

IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics

http://www.englobalnews.com/archives/20130316/f-35-equipped-with-new-photoelectric-sensor-automatically-emitting-laser-interference-missile.html

TWR is great as it has 220KN strapped to it with weight slightly more than f16. Also it can slow maneuver like hornet. Later upgrades by 2020 will be more powerful engine , 6 internal AIM 120D, better radar. (can carry more payload by weight internally than F22).

Overall as of now

1. F22
2. FGFA ( Stealthier and better avionics, Israeli, Indian EW , HUD, HMDS beauties!)
3. PAKFA
4. F35
5. J20

 

[HK Indian MBT]

Can you name one aircraft program that has not had delays or cost escalation? LCA or F-35 come to mind?

When changes and modifications are introduced cost and delays occur, in this case India has proposed dozens of 'improvements' to the pak-fa, with that comes further design work, validation, and testing.

We have heard conflicting reports about the pak-fa, with that said, this is just more unsubstantiated claims.

I really love Russians Friends and I really wonder what is the need for cost escalation when you have a Prototype Flying-PAKFA .FGFA will have Indian components to if am not wrong.Then cost should go down. And Increasing the price even before Signing the contract is RETARD Russian New Policy ? Which is bad for Russia in all ways. I think Russia is now has Chinese Support and thats for various reasons.Sure China will persuade russians to Snap the dies with INDIA which is now No one's Land. Its a Soft State.Even Srilanka enter Indian Water and can Kill Indian Fisher Man. SO I really think we must see these Issue in all asspects.

 

[HK Indian MBT]

Well you guys paid a hella of a lot more than the Chinese did for Varyag which is more modern and has a larger displacement than Gorshkov

How do you know how much China Spent on Vaaryag and for what ? NO ONE KNOWS IT. And VIKI is not worst than Varyag .

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

Damn! I came here to thrash the Indians in Ping Pong - not this!

 

[Gessler]

Actually bad misconception.

Here's why

RCS

F22 - .0001MS (Marble/pellet)

PAKFA/FGFA - .01 (cricket ball)

Supercruise -

F22 - 1.82 mach

PAKFA/FGFA - 1.5 mach

TVC -

F22 - 20 deg deflection Pitch

PAKFA/FGFA - 15 deg Pitch , 8 yaw.

Yaw is not as important for maneuver as pitch is.

RADAR -

The F-22´s AN/APG-77 has about 2000 -2200 receive modules and its an low observable AESA radar, which is able to track a 1 square meter target at a range of 240 km, it is considered the most advanced fighter radar, with the highest detection range.
There are some sources stating it´s range to be up to 270-300 km against a 1 m² target.

120 deg coverage azimuth and elevated.

The PAK-FA´s radar has 1500 elements it tracks a 2.5 m² target at 400 km.

120 deg azimuth only on using elevation bars.

The PAK-FA has full 360 degree radar coverage because of two L- band radars on the wingtips and a small X-band radar on its tail.

The Raptor can do so as well, through the use of sensor fusion and highly advanced passive sensors to provide 360 degree coverage ALR 94. But only 1 radar so only coverage till 120 deg.

SPEED -

F22 2575 km/h+

PAKFA/FGFA 2100 km/h

CEILING -

F22 - 19812 m

PAKFA - 20000 m

INTERNAL PAYLOAD -

F22 - 8

PAKFA/FGFA -10


MAX G LOAD -

F22 - −3/+9g

PAKFA/FGFA - −3/+9g

WING LOAD (LOWER BETTER) -

F22 - 375 kg/m²

PAKFA - 330-470 kg/m2


The following criteria boosts the Raptors agility:

Lower wing loading than the PAK-FA, but comparable thrust to weight
much bigger stabilizers
good aerodynamics
flight control surfaces on the F-22 are very large and give the F-22 the edge in the turn
2D larger Pitch deflection

The following criteria boosts the PAK-FAs agility:
good aerodynamics
3D TVC
Full moveable LERX
Full moveable vertical and horizontal stabilizers

I can only say that you are comparing the specs of a completed product to that of a evolving prototype.

None of the stuff you see on PAK-FA T-50 today is the final version.

F35 = F16 High agility not so maneuverability

IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics

http://www.englobalnews.com/archives/20130316/f-35-equipped-with-new-photoelectric-sensor-automatically-emitting-laser-interference-missile.html

TWR is great as it has 220KN strapped to it with weight slightly more than f16. Also it can slow maneuver like hornet. Later upgrades by 2020 will be more powerful engine , 6 internal AIM 120D, better radar. (can carry more payload by weight internally than F22).

Overall as of now

1. F22
2. FGFA ( Stealthier and better avionics, Israeli, Indian EW , HUD, HMDS beauties!)
3. PAKFA
4. F35
5. J20

It's not right to believe F-35 is more agile than PAK-FA.

PAK-FA Is supposed to have twin 176kN engines.

 

[HK Indian MBT]

What you said is more like your wishlist. The realities are way different. LCA and the other jets are entirely different classes and moreover LCA is still waiting for induction. At this point LCA is a matter of ego and induction will be in much less numbers since needs are changed over last three decades. IMO Issues faced by LCA was not of financial nature but lack of expertise.

Every First step is difficult one. Already 8 Prototypes flying without any accident for over 2200+ flights. MK1 and MK 2 will be mass produced at 30-40 per years. WHICH IS GREAT so no need to worry about timeline any more as IOC and FOC are planned soon. Tejas MK-2 will get induted by 2016 which Better than better Fighter Tejas. So double troble for enemies. Its a LAME to think Tejas as useless even before it get inducted. It ment for Mig 21 so We have better fighter than Mig 21 or Mirage 2000 . Its good to invest in tejas. So i stand by statement.
Tejas MK-1 = 40
Tejas MK-2 = 120+
Tejas MK-3 = 2 engined Stealth Config Upgrade of MK2 = Atleast 150+
Su 30 MKI = 270~
AMCA = 180 by 2030 . There should be a Private player involved in AMCA project. HAL is already filled with many orders on Tejas, LCH ,Rudra , LUH etc . AMCA should kept outside Hal's ambit. INVEST the money on new team formed . Sure AMCA will fly before 2020 . It good if we can induct AMCA even in 2024 its fine. Upgraded Super Sukoi , Upgraded tejas , If possible 30 more Su 35 can protect Hindustan from any threat

SU30 & Tejas are sufficient for airforce for all needs in future decade. Indigenous developed can be very low cost so we can have large number of these- even exceeding the 65 - 70 squadrons.
Mirrage 2000D upg + Mig 29 UPG +Upgraded Jag will be

 

[qwerrty]

india is already too deep in this project. they're trapped. this is not the last. russians will jack up the price again. just watch it

 

[ChinaToday]

fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me?

 

[Rocky rock]

So! in Short India isn't going to get it's FGFA before 2022?? or could be more late?

 

[ChinaToday]

Overall as of now

1. F22
2. FGFA ( Stealthier and better avionics, Israeli, Indian EW , HUD, HMDS beauties!)
3. PAKFA
4. F35
5. J20

This is a more accurate ranking buddy

1. J20
2. F22
3. F35
4. FGFA
5. PAKFA

 

[gambit]

This is a more accurate ranking buddy

1. J20
2. F22
3. F35
4. FGFA
5. PAKFA

Good joke...