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59% of Germans view Israel as 'aggressive'

For the nth time, nobody was "supporting" the destruction of Mecca/Medina. I can understand your emotional outbursts at me, Gambit, VCheng and others who logically and factually argued based on course material and other evidences at that thread to prove that the course was no more than a contingency measure for military situations and if US did decide to nuke Mecca/Medina, Muslims are completely powerless to do anything against it. And the fact that US, Russia or any other major nation's military must be prepared for such contingencies. Military matters are not influenced by the emotional outbursts of a few people like you.

WRONG.

The whole debate, which most reasonable people, including American military personnel, agreed was about promoting hateful material and collective punishment. The US administration, including the CJCS agreed. It was only the usual hate-mongers like you who kept defending the indefensible idea of nuking Mecca and Medina as a legitimate way to combat terrorism.

Yet, you still did not reply to my last argument in the "Hiroshima tactics" thread because you do not have anything to argue with in the first place other than your hate speeches.

If you noticed, EVERYBODY else in the thread ignored you and your rants. Only in your mind do you present reasonable debate; others see you for what you are -- a hate-filled bigot whose only contribution is Islamophobic rants.

Anyway, let's not go off topic here. If you have personal problems with me, you are free to discuss it with me via personal/visitor messaging. Being a THINK TANK, you should already know that the public forum is not a place for solving personal differences.

There is nothing personal about it. Exposing hate-mongers who poison every thread, not by contributing to reasoned debate, but simply by spouting vitriole is important for the health of the forum.
 
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If you noticed, EVERYBODY else in the thread ignored you and your rants...........

In your imagination, perhaps?

I pity people like you - filled with hate and devoid of sense whatsoever. I bet you don't have the courage to face up to a Zionist in real life. The internet is a paradise for your likes to spout your anti-semite propaganda. Anyway, I'm not sure I have the time to spare to entertain your nonsensical diabolism here. As such, I'd prefer to conclude myself here and now.

Aidos.
 
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Sewage problems started when Israel left Gaza.

The least israel could have done was provide proper sewage and sanitation system to the Gazans if it cared at all about the people.
 
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In your imagination, perhaps?

EVERYONE else ignored your pathetic attempt at trolling. Did anyone else bother to answer your troll question in that thread?

I pity people like you - filled with hate and devoid of sense whatsoever. I bet you don't have the courage to face up to a Zionist in real life.

Ensconsced in your bubble of clueless hate, you have't the faintest clue who you are talking with. I often debate with knowledgeable, hardcore Zionists who know a thousand times more than you will ever know. Unlike you, they don't resort to petty rants when cornered.

The internet is a paradise for your likes to spout your anti-semite propaganda.

And ... we're back to the standard desperation of the "anti-Semite" refrain.

I CHALLENGE you to find a single post where I have said anything against Jews or Judaism. I know you will run off because you can't substantiate your pathetic charge of anti-Semitism.

Contemptuously predictable!
 
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The least israel could have done was provide proper sewage and sanitation system to the Gazans if it cared at all about the people.

Sewage systems require regular maintenance to function properly. During the time when Gaza was under the control of Israel (1967-2005) there was no such sewage problem whatsoever because sewerage lines require regular maintenance which was well provided for.

Gaza was taken over by the terrorist group Hamas in 2007 who are still controlling the area. If you search relevant news articles, you will find that sewage problem in Gaza started from 2009. Thus, it is clearly evident that the incompetent Hamas government has failed to do regular maintenance of sewerage facilities and other infrastructures as a result of which the population has suffered.

It is easy to blame Israel, but how can you blame Israel if Israel is no longer in control of Gaza? How will Israel provide for maintenance of sewerage facilities if the area is controlled by Hamas whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel? Say, a certain area of pakistan (God forbid) comes under the control of taliban. Would you blame the pakistani government for failure to maintain infrastructure in that area? Try to understand the situation Israel is in.
 
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Backlash against African migrants in Israel

migrants.jpg


Recent rapes blamed on African migrants have ignited a political and emotional backlash against their ballooning numbers, with Israelis and their leaders stridently - and in an alarming new development, violently - calling for their expulsion.

Israel, bound by an international refugees treaty it ardently promoted, doesn't seem to have that option, and the gap between rhetoric and reality threatens to send simmering social antagonisms boiling over into open conflict.

It has raised questions, relevant all over the developed world, about how much is owed to the impoverished migrants who manage to sneak in.

Over the past seven years, as many as 60,000 African migrants, most from Sudan and Eritrea, have slipped across Israel's border with Egypt, exploiting the lack of a physical barrier and widespread lawlessness in the Sinai Peninsula that has been one result of the fall last year of longtime Egyptian ruler Hosni Mubarak.

Israel is erecting a barrier along the roughly 200 kilometers (125 miles) of border. While this work drags on, the migrants continue to arrive at a rate of about 1,000 a month, ragged and penniless, with some reporting being raped, tortured and extorted by the Bedouins who smuggle them through.

Some migrants are fleeing repressive regimes. Others are simply looking for a better life in a richer country. How many fit into each of those categories is a matter of deep disagreement between officials and migrant advocates.

Some Israelis worry that their national identity as a Jewish state is being threatened by unauthorized African migrants, who now make up less than 1 percent of Israel's population.

"It's the crumbling of the Zionist dream," Interior Minister Eli Yishai warned on Thursday.

Officials claim the overwhelming majority of the migrants are not bona fide refugees escaping persecution and war, but economic migrants looking for jobs. Israeli leaders use terms like "infiltrators," ''cancer" and "national scourge" to describe them, setting an inflammatory tone.

After the first rape was reported earlier this month, Yishai declared nearly all migrants to be criminals and said they should all be jailed pending deportation.

Days later, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned, "60,000 infiltrators are liable to become 600,000, and lead to the eradication of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state."

The issue of how to deal with them has also caused introspection about whether Israel, after a century of conflict with Arabs, has become a racist society.

"What disturbs me most is the racist atmosphere," social commentator Tom Segev said. "For several years now, Israel society has been moving in that direction, with all the anti-Arab motions in the parliament. ... I think that this society is very sick now."

Others deny that the pushback is racist, finding it unreasonable that their country of about 8 million should be expected to throw open its doors to unlimited numbers of migrants.

Israel cannot simply kick out the Africans, as some politicians would seem to suggest. As an enthusiastic backer of a 1951 U.N. treaty drafted to address the plight of World War II refugees, it has pledged not to expel asylum-seekers to any country where they would be in danger.

"We're not going to pull back on our obligations under the refugee convention," said Daniel Solomon, legal adviser to Israel's population and immigration authority. "At the same time, other solutions will have to be looked for," like finding a third country to take them in.

Because most migrants come from Sudan, an enemy state, and Eritrea, a country with an abysmal human rights record, the line between refugee and economic migrants is blurred. So Israel has quietly allowed most migrants from those two countries to stay, without processing their asylum applications.

This status does not allow them to work openly or access social services, so the migrants scrounge for whatever underpaid and insecure employment and volunteer health care they can find.

"Our objective is to have Israel host these people under proper conditions until the option arises for them to go home," said William Tall, the envoy of the U.N. refugee agency office in Israel.

The Africans began trickling into Israel after neighboring Egypt violently quashed a demonstration by a group of Sudanese refugees there in 2005, killing at least 20. The numbers surged as word spread of safety and jobs in Israel, a prosperous and liberal country reachable from Africa overland.

The swelling numbers have spawned slums. Fear and intolerance is mounting among locals, who accuse the migrants of stoking crime, including three recent rapes - even though police records show crime among the migrants is lower than among Israelis.

Firebombs were thrown recently at two buildings where migrants live, and a protest against them Wednesday in a poor southern Tel Aviv neighborhood where many Africans live turned violent. The crowd shattered windows of shops and cars belonging to Africans, police said, and a witness reported that protesters spat on migrants and cursed them. No one was hurt.

Bashir Abekker, 32, came to Israel four years ago to escape the war in Sudan's Darfur region. He thought he'd find safety, "but recently, I'm not safe here. I am afraid for my safety," he said. "After what happened (Wednesday), I was afraid to go out on the street to buy food."

On Thursday, Netanyahu condemned the violence. "I want to make it very clear that there is no room for the kinds of expressions and actions we saw last night," he said. "I say this both to public officials and to the residents of south Tel Aviv, whose pain I understand."

The Hotline for Migrant Workers advocacy group said the refugees are endangered by the "incitement" of politicians.

On the other side of the divide, neighborhood activist Dror Kahalani said the government is neglecting his already poor community to provide services for migrants, whose rising numbers terrify residents.

"I don't let my daughters go out unless I go with them," Kahalani said.

Prominent author and social commentator A.B. Yehoshua came to the defense of the migrants' Israeli neighbors. "We have to distinguish between economic migrants whom we don't have to accept, and the bona fide refugees who are suffering and face death if returned," he said.

For some, the violence against the migrants and calls for their expulsion are difficult to accept given the legacy of the Holocaust, when 6 million Jews were killed by German Nazis and their collaborators. They find it abhorrent that the Jewish state would expel people to face persecution elsewhere.

todayszaman
 
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Just like anybody who critiques Islam cant escape from being branded an Islamophobe ;)

Just like anyone who criticizes western state terrorism and NATO - and western cultural values such as materialism and atheism - can't escape from being branded a Westernophobe ;)

It's perfectly ok to criticize Islam, but you can't criticize western culture and values.

Firstly, thank you for the polite post. You are, perhaps the only person here who has the decency to argue politely without personal attacks.

I would suggest you to research more on the matter. Take it from me: I was also an anti-semite hater once upon a time but after researching deeply on the matter, I am a Zionist now (Also no less a Muslim at the same time)

I would recommend a few books for you.

As a starter, this is a preliminary guide to understanding the middle east conflict:



Here is how a Zionist actually lived, principles for what you fight for, not talk:



I would recommend you other books too. But the above two books should clear your misconceptions about Israel. The books are based on numerous, hardened references and are very good reads. Please inform me if you require further books.




Depends on how you are doing the "defending". If you try to impose your culture on non muslims, obviously you will be faced with animosity. How about somebody forces you to drink wine? The same goes for forcing non muslims to abide by Sharia law (case in point: Anjem Chowdary).

As long as you stay tolerant towards other beliefs and respect the Koranic principle of "No compulsion in religion", you will not be faced with hatred or animosity for that matter.



I do not misuse the term either. I only use it when I see it clearly that this is the case. You see, this thread is a good example. I'd ask you to follow my posts from the beginning in this thread. I did not engage in any personal attacks towards anybody unless attacked first, yet, it is me who got called "hypocrite, russkie and bullshitter" (2 posts deleted now). You would also notice the constant sarcasm combined with the label of "islamophobic" (when I am a Muslim myself) that was thrown at my by Developereo, in reply of which I called him Xenophobic. Why? Xenophobia is defined as "an unreasonable Fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange." This is clearly the case here when he ran out of logical arguments and started personal attacks towards me.

Take a look at the Zionist member's posts in this thread and that of the anti-semites. Whereas Zionists are always backing what they say with referenced facts, for example, I backed my argument with stats from The Economist and other sources. 500 backed his argument with many sources to prove living quality if better for Israeli Arabs and the peace plans were fair. What do the anti-semites post? Their favourite is to post youtube propaganda videos. When the truth is, youtube videos do not describe at all the circumstance a particular event happened and thus, are, inherently a flawed source for claims. Anybody who studied a higher degree knows that youtube videos do not prove anything without being backed by forensic evidence and circumstantial studies. You may also wish to research the issue of "pallywood" where Palestinian radicals are proved to have faked numerous videos to gain sympathy.

Since we Zionists back our arguments with references and the anti semites resort to personal attacks as I described above, it is tenement to term them as radical fanatics. By no means I am labelling ALL muslims as radicals, but the ones in this thread surely seems like so, evident from their sporadic emotional outbursts at us Zionists.

This is the biggest load of bullcrap I have ever read, I will ignore you from now on.
 
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This is the country that apparently killed 7 million jews, so It is not surprising.
also is it me is that holocaust figure increasing...It was 5million a few years ago now it's 7...
It be 1 billion by the end of the century.
 
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^^ who said it was 7 million.

The figure was 5.9 million and usually gets rounded to 6 million.

The Germans are meticulous record keepers and have documented every single Jew they killed in the holocaust.

In total 9 million people were killed during the holocaust including roma, gypsy, communists, mentally challenged people, gays, slavs and jews.
 
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All your'e saying is "I hate you" and " I don't like your comments" over and over again. So typical :lol:.

Developoreo ! haunting pdf since '09 .
Motto : "Everyone who disagrees with me are either false flags , Indians or hate mongers".

:rofl:
Says the ignorant Indian who knows nothing about the Palestinian issue. How many books have you read about the historical background? It's not about free speech. The issue is he is blatently lying and spreading idiotic propaganda. Nothing he has said is true. It's merely a huge hateful rant that has no connection whatsoever with facts or research.

Exposing a bigot like you is not hate speech; it is free speech.
I don't think he is Muslim, he seems like someone with an agenda. A Muslim Zionist and Islamophobe. Yeah right.
 
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^^ who said it was 7 million.

The figure was 5.9 million and usually gets rounded to 6 million.

The Germans are meticulous record keepers and have documented every single Jew they killed in the holocaust.

In total 9 million people were killed during the holocaust including roma, gypsy, communists, mentally challenged people, gays, slavs and jews.

The breakdown, according to some estimates, is:

Jews- 5,860,000
Soviet POW's- 3.3 million
Non-Jewish Poles- 1.8-2 million
Romanis ('gypsies')- 220,000- 270,000 (but even the higher figure may be too low)
Disabled- 200,000 - 250,000
Homosexuals- 5,000 - 15,000
Jehovahs Witnesses- 2,500 - 5,000

In total, it is estimated to be 11 million.
 
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They did not change much as u can see.

No my friend, you should not base your opinion on a lousy poll and some flashy one-liners, that are seemingly put together to portray Israel in a negative way.

Not many nations have done more introspection and renunciation of their forebears than Germans have. You only need to look at the reluctance of Japan to look clearly at crimes such as the rape of Nanjing, the sexual enslavement of Indonesian and Korean women, and the torture and killings of prisoners of war and civilians by the Japanese to see the contrast.

The Holocaust was a disgraceful and despicable act done by the Nazi's, the whole Nazi era is regarded as a dark page in human history by the overwhelming majority of Germans.

However, to me it comes as no surprise that many Germans are going to view Israel as 'aggressive'. I once happened to be one of those. They reason within their own context, with their own backyard in their mind, where Germany lives in peace with its neighbours, even having friendly relations with Russia, once an arch-enemy.
But Europe with its peaceful co-existence is not the playground in which Israel has to play in. They are part of a world, where the law of the jungle exists. In such an environment the strong survive, so if Israel is going to survive it needs to be aggressive.

A few years back I myself bought into the whole propaganda spread by the European media and the leftist apologists in their defence of Arab terrorism and their anti-Israeli cause. About how the existence of Israel and the occupation of Palestine is the main driving force of Middle-Eastern terrorism and all that...

Doing much exploring, in stead of only reading apologetic but unrealistic books about Islam and Arabs, and relying on favourable opinions and articles about the Palestinians in newspapers and on TV like before, and coming in contact with Israeli's, (pro-)Palestinians and Muslims in general, my perspective has changed considerable since then.

Nowadays I know better.

Today, I believe that Israel was the single most important creation for the survival of the Middle Eastern Jews. If it wasn't for Israel, the Jews in the Arab world were probably wiped out by now.

Now I know that even if Israel didn't exist, we would still see the persecution and hunt of Jews by radical Islamists, we would still see terrorist attacks all over the world.

However, I still think it's wrong to build settlements in the occupied territories.

Germany has been a friend to Israel and will continue to be in order to secure the safety of the Israeli's. Our commitment to Israel is not properly reflected by sensational headlines or a survey founded on bad methodology, but on solid support such as the delivery of German submarines to Israel.
 
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The least israel could have done was provide proper sewage and sanitation system to the Gazans if it cared at all about the people.

They attack and fire rockets into Israel daily attempting to kill as many Jews as possible and you're wanting them to be given equal treatment?

Israel is way too humane with them.

Tell me, how would you react if someone fired rockets on your people on a daily basis trying to kill more of your kind everytime?

In the place they're situated, Israel has to be aggressive. If it cowers down, it will be finished just like how the Third Reich did in a matter of 12 years.

Germans have been living in a friendly borderless Europe and have forgotten what it means to have threats all around. In fact, European Union is just one big country with different languages that's all. While all pretend to have sovereignty they all operate in one unison and hence don't know anymore to understand what it is to be in a modern day threat environment.

Gone are those days when your enemy used to come in droves wearing uniform and recognizable of a particular country or community. Today's enemy is hidden among common people; pretending to be the victim but always ready to attack. Which is why Israel's stance is required to survive.
 
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