525MW Nandipur power plant starts test run

[BMM Solar]

Well that is why i did mentioned number of alternate sources like Hydel, Wind, Coal, the Solar also oil and gas!

The comment i make about solar is that these are maintenance intensive. For a 1000 MW plant you need THOUSANDS of acre of land, area that you needs guarding and protection and an area that will need MULTIPLE posts and offices to maintain and control/patrol. MILLIONS of solar panels (yes, MILLIONS), which is a heavy capital investment but more importantly will have continuous running costs in terms of maintenance and operations. Thousands will be required as a cleaning crew alone if the efficiency of the panels is to be maintained. Overall, it will be an administrative challenge to manage a single site spread across some 6-7 thousand acre land (note that every square meter of this land have a panel and therefore is a functioning part of the site). All this for a plant that will give you electricity only in the day time and that too mainly in the summers. Take out the overcast days and you will note why i do not see Solar Energy as the most preferable option. There is thousands of MW potential in Hydel and Wind. While wind may not be giving output 24/7 note that 400-500 mills are required to produce similar 1000 MW energy. You can easily calculate the area they will cover and the crew it will need to operate and maintain. Hydel is a different league altogether. For an agriculture based country like ours, i think the best way to describe Hydel power plants from our perspective is that electricity will be a byproduct. Water is what we will be and need to be building them for.

The main point is, to me, solar is an individual solution. What government needs to do is to attract local manufacturing of the panels, cheaper prices, may be even subsidy so people can individually covert there homes to this clean energy source and thus take the load off the national grid. A huge role can be played by installing two way meters by WAPDA through which a consumer can also act as a producer and if there home is producing surplus energy via Solar Panels in the afternoons, that energy is sold to the national grid via these meters (that is how it is in MANY countries and it will give a huge intensive to general public to shift to solar). While i write these long posts against Solar power plants, it will be worthy to mention that i have 16 panels installed at my home and my whole house including air conditioners are on Solar now. That is what more and more people need to do and it will go a LONG way in solving our energy problems as well as producing enough clean energy for individual use. A national level, other options from a long list need to be considered.

I really appreciate you taking your time to educate others. I just wanted to add a few points rest you have already explained thoroughly.
Cleaning solar power plant is not a big deal a water cannon can easily do the job.
Solar plants are designed in such a way that its administration requires minimal effort with passageways in between two strings for easy access.
Area requirement is an issue as you have mentioned but it can be setup in any remote location where land is cheap.
Water should be our priority no doubt about it as you have rightly mentioned power production is an additional feature of water storages and not the primary objective so it cannot be unleashed just to meet the energy demand. The Wind power is also a good alternative to fossil fuel that costs us in premium foreign exchange rates. However, the flexibility of solar as you rightly mentioned is anyone can go for it and as the prices go down its financial viability also increases.
Net-Metering further increases the efficiency of the system because the excess power you are generating will not go to waste instead will be sold back to your DISCO.
If you notice most of the economic activity happens in the daytime so there is a huge demand that needs to be catered only in the daytime as well.
No one source can solve the energy security problem alone that's why there is a need for a healthy energy mix to meet our demands.
You have made a smart choice for your household energy needs, Do share your experience thus far.

P.S. For reference, a 5KW system generates 22-25 units of electricity on a sunny day. I have seen it producing 11-13 units in the extremely foggy days in winters when the sun was barely seen all day and one million plates will have a nameplate capacity of 250 MW and it will require an area of approximately 2000 acres for operation.

 

[Arsalan]

I really appreciate you taking your time to educate others. I just wanted to add a few points rest you have already explained thoroughly.

No problem mate. Just noticed your nick, you are somehow related to Solar energy production. Will you mind sharing in what way you are related to it?

Cleaning solar power plant is not a big deal a water cannon can easily do the job.
Solar plants are designed in such a way that its administration requires minimal effort with passageways in between two strings for easy access.

Water cannon for cleaning MILLIONS of panels, water for all those cannons, the passageways that spread thousands of acres is what i call a problem. There is no way a human can walk from one end to another, the site is to be distributed into much smaller and manageable zones, thus more posts, more manpower to man those posts. Securing 8000-10000 acres of land totally filled (again, almost every square meter is in use and have equipment one way or the other) is a huge task itself.

Area requirement is an issue as you have mentioned but it can be setup in any remote location where land is cheap.

Sorry, i do not like to sound like i am disagreeing with anything and everything you say but i do not think getting the and is the issue here. We have plenty of barren land (though i am worry that our policy makers may even chose the most fertile land for such a project because they do not know anything about policy making to being with ) and desert that can be used. The problem is managing that area.

Water should be our priority no doubt about it as you have rightly mentioned power production is an additional feature of water storages and not the primary objective so it cannot be unleashed just to meet the energy demand.

True. Water is an emergency problem now. Need to build dams to address that issues and we can get thousands of MW of energy as a by-product (we need both water and electricity so it is a pretty obvious choice for us, it should be)

The Wind power is also a good alternative to fossil fuel that costs us in premium foreign exchange rates. However, the flexibility of solar as you rightly mentioned is anyone can go for it and as the prices go down its financial viability also increases.

Net-Metering further increases the efficiency of the system because the excess power you are generating will not go to waste instead will be sold back to your DISCO. If you notice most of the economic activity happens in the daytime so there is a huge demand that needs to be catered only in the daytime as well.

True, Solar is great because if can be adopted by individuals. At huge national scale, other more suitable options should be preferred. If we can individually convert our houses to Solar it will reduce Carbon emission and will take load off the national grid. However since each home will be operating a limited number of plates, there wont be any management issues as mentioned in case of a Solar Park.

If consumer is able to sell the surplus energy it will be a nice incentive to covert to Solar. I think this incentive should be given just to promote Solar panels at individual level. Even if there is not advantage at national level (however i am sure there is lot of advantage as well since the electricity being generated and fed to national grid by individuals will play some little part in shortening the gap.

No one source can solve the energy security problem alone that's why there is a need for a healthy energy mix to meet our demands.
You have made a smart choice for your household energy needs, Do share your experience thus far.

It is excellent. I have my whole home, including two fridges, one freezer, two air conditioners and all fans and lights and other electronic appliances running on Solar now. If i can get a two way meter where i am able to sell as well i might just buy 6 8 extra panels in a day or two.

P.S. For reference, a 5KW system generates 22-25 units of electricity on a sunny day. I have seen it producing 11-13 units in the extremely foggy days in winters when the sun was barely seen all day and one million plates will have a nameplate capacity of 250 MW and it will require an area of approximately 2000 acres for operation.

Yup, do some math and it means around 4 millions plates for a 1000 MW park spread across some 8000 acres of land. HUGE!!

 

[BMM Solar]

No problem mate. Just noticed your nick, you are somehow related to Solar energy production. Will you mind sharing in what way you are related to it?


Water cannon for cleaning MILLIONS of panels, water for all those cannons, the passageways that spread thousands of acres is what i call a problem. There is no way a human can walk from one end to another, the site is to be distributed into much smaller and manageable zones, thus more posts, more manpower to man those posts. Securing 8000-10000 acres of land totally filled (again, almost every square meter is in use and have equipment one way or the other) is a huge task itself.


Sorry, i do not like to sound like i am disagreeing with anything and everything you say but i do not think getting the and is the issue here. We have plenty of barren land (though i am worry that our policy makers may even chose the most fertile land for such a project because they do not know anything about policy making to being with ) and desert that can be used. The problem is managing that area.


True. Water is an emergency problem now. Need to build dams to address that issues and we can get thousands of MW of energy as a by-product (we need both water and electricity so it is a pretty obvious choice for us, it should be)


True, Solar is great because if can be adopted by individuals. At huge national scale, other more suitable options should be preferred. If we can individually convert our houses to Solar it will reduce Carbon emission and will take load off the national grid. However since each home will be operating a limited number of plates, there wont be any management issues as mentioned in case of a Solar Park.

If consumer is able to sell the surplus energy it will be a nice incentive to covert to Solar. I think this incentive should be given just to promote Solar panels at individual level. Even if there is not advantage at national level (however i am sure there is lot of advantage as well since the electricity being generated and fed to national grid by individuals will play some little part in shortening the gap.

It is excellent. I have my whole home, including two fridges, one freezer, two air conditioners and all fans and lights and other electronic appliances running on Solar now. If i can get a two way meter where i am able to sell as well i might just buy 6 8 extra panels in a day or two.


Yup, do some math and it means around 4 millions plates for a 1000 MW park spread across some 8000 acres of land. HUGE!!

I work for a small solar EPC company in Islamabad, although I haven't seen such large plants but never heard that managing and maintaining those facilities is such a nightmare. 8000 acres is huge but not that huge that it is impossible to manage it. for reference, 8000 acres = 32.37 sqkm, Mangla dam is of similar capacity and its surface area is roughly 8 times that.
You can get a net-metered connection if you have a three phase connection and inverter that can auto sync it's output with input from utility and has safety features like anti-islanding. There may be more but these two are major causes for rejection.

 

[Arsalan]

I work for a small solar EPC company in Islamabad, although I haven't seen such large plants but never heard that managing and maintaining those facilities is such a nightmare. 8000 acres is huge but not that huge that it is impossible to manage it. for reference, 8000 acres = 32.37 sqkm, Mangla dam is of similar capacity and its surface area is roughly 8 times that.

Well it is your field then and i may be wrong about something but just want to point out that the 8 time larger Mangla dam is filled with water and that do not need any attendants. The power generation unit of Mangla dam is housed in a medium warehouse size building under the dam wall. It is not more than a couple of acre at best. the 8000 acre of Solar park on other hand is all panels (apart from the passage ways). It is essentially an 8000 acre instrument that we are talking about against a warehouse size setup. Plus, the electricity there is a by-product.

That is the reason i feel that solar energy should be promoted as an individual solution and not suitable in solar parks.

You can get a net-metered connection if you have a three phase connection and inverter that can auto sync it's output with input from utility and has safety features like anti-islanding. There may be more but these two are major causes for rejection.

You mean i can get it from WAPDA?
Do they have a policy/system now that will all the consumers to be sellers too? I am not aware of that development. I have a 3-phase connection and the UPS i have is also auto-sync. Plus i will be upgrading the Inverter any way as i have added some plates recently so if i can look for one now. The main thing is, do WAPDA gives this facility? i need to go to my subdivision and ask them for such a connection/meter?

 

[Mumm-Ra]

whenever Pak is faced with a power crisis, lo and behold, Nandipur starts working again. Though I has been operational from the last year at least. This running gag is just for political consumption.

 

[marbella]

Should encourage private investors for solar energy.Investors will create more jobs and govt can buy electricity hassel free.

 

[tarrar]

This project has only seen corruption & because of which failures were there & we are still continuing to see corruption & even more failures.

 

[BMM Solar]

Well it is your field then and i may be wrong about something but just want to point out that the 8 time larger Mangla dam is filled with water and that do not need any attendants. The power generation unit of Mangla dam is housed in a medium warehouse size building under the dam wall. It is not more than a couple of acre at best. the 8000 acre of Solar park on other hand is all panels (apart from the passage ways). It is essentially an 8000 acre instrument that we are talking about against a warehouse size setup. Plus, the electricity there is a by-product.

That is the reason i feel that solar energy should be promoted as an individual solution and not suitable in solar parks.


You mean i can get it from WAPDA?
Do they have a policy/system now that will all the consumers to be sellers too? I am not aware of that development. I have a 3-phase connection and the UPS i have is also auto-sync. Plus i will be upgrading the Inverter any way as i have added some plates recently so if i can look for one now. The main thing is, do WAPDA gives this facility? i need to go to my subdivision and ask them for such a connection/meter?

That's when the engineers come in but it's achievable and happening on such large scales around the world*.
*google=>sma pv-electricity-produced-in-germany

Yes, it is regulated by NEPRA. It's a license for a distributed generation facility to be connected to national grid. you can start by filling the form at the end of the document I have attached and submit it to the competent authority. Your house will be surveyed and after required equipment certification you should get a net energy meter installed at your premises.

Based on my experience I would recommend you to go for a true hybrid inverter else you will end up ruining your battery life. A true hybrid inverter is the one which shares your running load with the utility when the solar input is lower. You should easily find this information written on the inverter manual.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

3 Years of bonus salaries
But if indeed if it as become operational congradulation on the positive news

 

[Arsalan]

That's when the engineers come in but it's achievable and happening on such large scales around the world*.
*google=>sma pv-electricity-produced-in-germany

Depends on the availability of other options. We have other options and more importantly other needs that fall in line with those other options being pursued.

Yes, it is regulated by NEPRA. It's a license for a distributed generation facility to be connected to national grid. you can start by filling the form at the end of the document I have attached and submit it to the competent authority. Your house will be surveyed and after required equipment certification you should get a net energy meter installed at your premises.

Thanks a lot. Will surely apply for it.

Based on my experience I would recommend you to go for a true hybrid inverter else you will end up ruining your battery life. A true hybrid inverter is the one which shares your running load with the utility when the solar input is lower. You should easily find this information written on the inverter manual.

The one i am using currently is a pure hybrid. When solar output is low it combines whatever it can get from Solar and takes the rest from WAPDA to meet my needs. I think this is what you are referring too as well. I think so!!

There is one on-grid inverter that is required i have just been told. Mine is not that. These are quite expensive with 5 kva inverter costing around 300000

 

[BMM Solar]

Depends on the availability of other options. We have other options and more importantly other needs that fall in line with those other options being pursued.


Thanks a lot. Will surely apply for it.


The one i am using currently is a pure hybrid. When solar output is low it combines whatever it can get from Solar and takes the rest from WAPDA to meet my needs. I think this is what you are referring too as well. I think so!!

There is one on-grid inverter that is required i have just been told. Mine is not that. These are quite expensive with 5 kva inverter costing around 300000

And again we come to the point of maintaining a healthy energy mix and we should tap into every option we have to successfully meet the future energy challenges. Solar is not a luxury anymore as we used to think in the past it has become the backbone of power generation of some developed countries.

There are confusing terminologies being used in the market that's why I used 'true' to differentiate what I was trying to say. You can share with me the model you have installed then I can give you a proper advice.
A true on-grid inverter is optimized for savings. It is a batteryless system recommended for places where utility downtime is zero i.e. no load shedding.

 

[Arsalan]

And again we come to the point of maintaining a healthy energy mix and we should tap into every option we have to successfully meet the future energy challenges. Solar is not a luxury anymore as we used to think in the past it has become the backbone of power generation of some developed countries.

Oh no bro, i have nothing against solar. Just saying that it is more sensible if this is encouraged at an individual level. For national scale projects there is not one other option but MANY, Hydel being the most important as it serves two purposes, wind, coal, gas/oil etc etc. Solar can still play an all important part if promoted correctly at individuals level.

There are confusing terminologies being used in the market that's why I used 'true' to differentiate what I was trying to say. You can share with me the model you have installed then I can give you a proper advice.
A true on-grid inverter is optimized for savings. It is a batteryless system recommended for places where utility downtime is zero i.e. no load shedding.

Yup that is what they call on-grid inverter, i do not have that one. It is quite expensive and i really dont need it right now. I will take a picture of what i am using and share with you.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

I work for a small solar EPC company in Islamabad

How is the solar market in Pakistan, as far as you've seen in your career?

 

[BMM Solar]

How is the solar market in Pakistan, as far as you've seen in your career?

It's still in its nascent stage but on a steady growth trajectory.

Oh no bro, i have nothing against solar. Just saying that it is more sensible if this is encouraged at an individual level. For national scale projects there is not one other option but MANY, Hydel being the most important as it serves two purposes, wind, coal, gas/oil etc etc. Solar can still play an all important part if promoted correctly at individuals level.


Yup that is what they call on-grid inverter, i do not have that one. It is quite expensive and i really dont need it right now. I will take a picture of what i am using and share with you.

I would argue that a solar plant is still a better investment at this stage than an oil run plant. The flexibility of PV solar is what is driving billions of dollars of investment in R&D to increase output efficiency at lower costs.

 

[Arsalan]

It's still in its nascent stage but on a steady growth trajectory.


I would argue that a solar plant is still a better investment at this stage than an oil run plant. The flexibility of PV solar is what is driving billions of dollars of investment in R&D to increase output efficiency at lower costs.

Compared to Oil/Gas, YES!
No argument. Specially in our case as oil and gas both are burden on our Foreign Exchange reserves! I was talking about hydel and wind as a priority with Solar as individual level solution as an ideal scenario. If push comes to shove, no argument that solar will be better than oil/gas.