4 Reasons China Can Fight a Modern War

[Menace2Society]

When was the last time China fought a war with another country?

 

[sicsheep]

You mean like this...

PLA conscription target in 2013 can be reached

The Internet search feature too difficult to understand and use ?


No, it does not. But am willing to guess your simplistic counter argument is based upon -- what else -- no military experience and not even a cursory study of the issue.

Conscription as an issue cannot be discussed by itself. To have a national mandatory military service, even a dictatorship must present at least a facile justification for the policy. In the case of Israel and Taiwan, both countries believes their existence are at stake and it is not that difficult to see how they came to that conclusion and justification for a national mandatory military service policy.

The PLA may present the same argument, but what make the PLA, not slightly different, but seriously different is the corruption that permeates the ranks, from the top generals and admirals all the way down to the enlisted. It is so bad that it is an open secret. In your China, military vehicles can ignore traffic laws at will. In the US, a county deputy sheriff can arrest the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff if he/she violate any law. The PLA own corporations and its leaderships sits on those corporations' boards of directorships. Officers up/down the chain of command extort money from the enlisted and sold ranks and assignments as opportunities opens themselves. Merit and technical competency takes back seats to party connections and money. So yes, conscription in this context make the PLA an ill motivated force whose abilities and willingness to fight are under question.


Nothing wrong with enticement and persuasions. Better than force, ya think ? But of course you are in the US where you can safely criticize the government without fear.

I still dont see anywhere that says PLA is forcing people to join, Every government has the power to draft, but can you show me if Chinese people are forced to join? We simply call it conscription but it is 100% voluntary.

In fact PLA is one of the few armies in the world that has both more available men power and men fit for service than it actually need. LOL

and I quote the article you posted
"　According to the incomplete statistics, as many as hundreds of thousands of college students have signed up online to join the army,"

I can hardly call that being forced.

Btw care to comment what is Selective Service System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jhungary]

First of all Sino Japanese war, other than the first one, WW2, we were victorious. Just before the atomic bomb, Chang was about to launch an offensive to go all the way back to Nanjing. Now regarding experience, America had far less experience in WW2, or no experience, while Japan's been fighting since before '31.

The Americans defeated the Japanese with a lot less causalities.

Experience matters, relatively. While against an inferior but experienced army, that will just result in some initial shock, while against someone of similar technological level, but also no experience, that's hard to say.

America is like a cheat code at this point, experience doesn't need to come into the equation.




China does need 10-15 years to be able to fight effectively, army is going through some tough reforms, and new equipments are still too new, but change is everywhere. You can see it in action, if you follow the current military news, not published in American media.

Though, some thing to consider, China's "enemies" other than the US all have no experience.

US have heaps of experience prior to WW2, they don't have experience fighting the Japanese and Italy, both of which were allies in WW1. Having said that, US have vast Combat experience prior to WW2. Actually, arguable, the US is the most experience in war leading to WW2 within the past 50 years

• Spanish American War (1898)
• Philippine American war (1899-1902)
• Banana Wars (1898-1935) A set of seperate war with South America including Haiti, Dominican, Nicaragua, Cuba and Panama
• Moro War in Philippine (1899-1913)
• Mexico Incursion (1910-1919)
• WW1 (1917-1918)

Unlike some of the american fanboys here jumping left or right, this is the news that the us military people at the helm wont be feeling too proud of

Only one-in-four Americans fit to serve in the military
Published time: May 17, 2013 20:22
Get short URL

Reuters / Jessica Rinaldi

Arms, Army, Education, Health, Military,USA

Most Americans are ineligible to join the military, either because they’re drug users, obese, medically unfit, failed to graduate high school, or have criminal records. The Pentagon estimates that only 25 percent of Americans are qualified.

Military officials claim that they are able to be more selective, largely because the high youth unemployment rate and the drawdowns in Iraq and Afghanistan have prompted more people to apply.

“There’s a lot more competition,” Sergeant First Class Israel Herrera told CNN. “There are not many opportunities out there, but the Army provides employment and stability, and that makes it an attractive option.”

But for the overwhelming majority of US citizens, joining the military has become difficult – especially amid continuously rising obesity rates and high unemployment.

More than 20 percent of high school students drop out before their graduation, 35 percent of Americans are obese or medically disqualified, 19 percent are drug or heavy alcohol users, and 5 percent have criminal records. These factors bar Americans from joining the military, and only one quarter of today’s youth are fit to join, the Pentagon estimates.

“Before 2009, we would probably be able to give you an example of a young man or young woman who got in with a simple possession of marijuana charge,” Herrera said. “They would not get a waiver these days.”

Six years ago, only 86 percent of new military recruits had a high school diploma, but today 99 percent of all new recruits have one. In 2005, the military suffered a shortage of new enlistees, while in recent years it has always had a surplus.

The trend has caused some to wonder if an improved economy would lower recruiting standards, since the poor economy has allowed the military to be selective.

“As we see signs of economic improvement, we must remain vigilant and continue to monitor impacts on our recruiting efforts,” Acting Under Secretary of Defense Jessica Wright told the Senate Armed Forces Committee last month.

But even if the military accepts less qualified Americans, the Pentagon estimates shed an alarming light on the numbers of people who are too overweight or uneducated to serve the country even if they wanted to.

With many Americans ineligible to join the military due to obesity, some members of Congress are trying to address the problem. Sens. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) and Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) on Thursdayintroduced the Fit to Serve Act, which will provide support for military leaders who want to provide their base’s sports fields and gyms to youth who need a place to exercise.

The US military discharges more than 1,200 first-time enlistees every year due to weight gain, and nearly one in 20 current service members are clinically overweight, the senators wrote in a press release.

“Obesity is the single greatest non-criminal hindrance for our young people seeking to enlist in the armed forces,” Sen. Murkowski said. “We want our young women and men to seek to serve their country to have basic information on what healthy weight means.”

黄山 Huang Mountain
Oil on canvas

Did you actually read the article??

What's wrong with US trying to raise a Physical Fit and competent force? Should US let any Dick, Jack and Jane into the US Military? No. The US war doctrine have been focus on Less manpower and more technological advance ever since WW2, the last war US Army have a size of 1 millions +, the current unit strength are at 450,000 and they are all elite, so what's wrong if the US army say no to Drunk, Drug Addicts and the Overweights?

Mind you, there are nothing wrong about being "Clinically Overweight" If you have served in the military you will know, you are classed as Clinically Overweight if you have a BMI of over 30 for male. And since you need to be bluff (Muscular) to be in the Military, Most soldier is "Clinically Obese"

Being Clinically overweight or obese will not be kicked out of the Military, fail to pass the PT test will, and for most man in US military they are fit and overweight, I was 185 cm tall and 103 kg before I went to Ranger Course. I was clinically overweight, that does not mean I am not fit.

Mind You, being 25% still mean 5 millions American were fit for service annually, and the US military don't even need half of those.

I can still remember my first exercise back in 1985. USAFE inspectors were all over the base and they were handling out 'death cards', basically, we were simulating casualties, from humans to equipment, which includes jets, to simulate combat stress about being undermanned but still meeting 'fully mission capable' (FMC) jets for the day's sorties. It was a bit of a joke. Those who were 'killed' considered it a break from the exercise. They did not have to wear chem gear whenever a 'condition black' siren went off. They were the 'dead', or the 'walking dead'. They get to hang out at the BBQ pad that every squadron have and smoke, eat, and drink as they wish.

I grew up during the Vietnam War and by 12 yrs old, I had seen plenty of the dead. I told my squadron mates that what we were doing was nothing compare to the real stress if we had to generate jets around the real dead whose bodies have not been removed or even covered. What it would be like if we had to work wounded because of triage when the docs said our wounds were not life threatening. Not only wounded but also tired from lack of sleep because of repeated air raid alarms, some real and some not. Not only wounded, tired from lack of sleep, but also from hunger because enemy attacks destroyed parcels of the base's food supply. The inspectors have no cards for these things.

This is what the perfessor who declared combat experience is overrated does not seems to understand. The totality of combat experience includes secondary experience and even non-combat experience that stresses an army's ability to sustain a fight. As an Air Force guy, I am removed from direct combat. But that does not mean I am removed from the environment that became a desirable target for the enemy -- my base. As such, I can be attacked but unable to retaliate in kind. How an airbase compensate for this is one of the many difficult to quantify experience that strengthened a military unit. Seeing your men virtually 'killed' and seeing their bodies actually destroyed do not produce the same psychological effects.

Wise leadership who have been through these traumas know the value, or rather the invaluable contribution, of those who survived actual combat experience, whether that experience is of an infantryman or a pilot or a ship's firefighter or tank driver, and make efforts to record their experience for later generation of warfighters to learn from.

The PLA is a corrupt, inefficient, and ill motivated force. By ill motivated, I mean China has to institute a conscription policy in order to maintain a standing army. No doubt, there are plenty of individuals inside the PLA who were/are truly motivated by love of country, but they are also smart enough to realize that the military they love and serve are not of the Chinese people but rather the military appendage of The Party, and as such, their loyalty are less than desirable and when actually stressed under combat pressure, their ability to sustain the fight will be suspect.

The refusal to acknowledge these difficult to quantify and intangible factors of the military life and combat experience is what make the Chinese members here so naive about the PLA. Just like how so many of us young American airmen back then thought we could handle a real war just because we were short a few men who still lives and enjoys their respite from an exercise, the Chinese members here deluded themselves into believing the PLA can easily win any war because China built a few fancy jet fighters and ships.

Most of these FPS gamer don't know why there are two separate corps in US in charge of any US military Unit, that's the Officer Corps and the NCO corps

The importance of NCO is they are tried and tested, mostly, by actual war. For a just commissioned 2LT, yes, you were send to command a platoon, but the actual person who lead the platoon is your platoon sergeant, cause you will have to use the officer management skill couple with the Senior NCO experience to lead the troop effectively.
That's why when I was a yahoo platoon leader, I was heavily rely on my senior NCO for advice. That is not something people never fought in war will know.

 

[NiceGuy]

Post-WWII, we haven't lost a war that we engaged in, by directly or indirectly, since the formation of PRC.

Korean War 1950s
Indian-Sino War 1960s
Vietnam-US War 1970s
Sino-Vietnam War 1980s (including 1979 and 1988)
Afghanistan-Soviet War 1980s

With these facts, we are still an inexperience fighting force, yet Japan, is the more experience force at because they train with the US and play humanitarian supporting role for UN peace keeping? ARE YOU FUCKING DUMB? LOLOL If anything, we are the one who contribute the most to UN peacekeeping force.

It is indeed laughable to put us down. Like we always said, talk is cheap. You think you can defeat us, then fire the first shot. We have been accused of creating ADIZ and Island Building, but no one got the gut to fire at us. After all, winning a war depend whether you got the ball in the first place or not. The ability to extend the war with your industrial strength (either through yourself or with support from other powers) and the will to suffer from war damage are the most important factors in every war. Vietcong won based on that concept.

In 1979 war, VN main forces were just women militia and border guards but 600,000 'well trained' PLA guys still being pushed back in few week and failed to forces VN army to pull back from Kam.

China also lost in CN-Taiwan conflict where your poorly trained pilots were shot down like mosquitoes

 

[sicsheep]

US have heaps of experience prior to WW2, they don't have experience fighting the Japanese and Italy, both of which were allies in WW1. Having said that, US have vast Combat experience prior to WW2. Actually, arguable, the US is the most experience in war leading to WW2 within the past 50 years

• Spanish American War (1898)
• Philippine American war (1899-1902)
• Banana Wars (1898-1935) A set of seperate war with South America including Haiti, Dominican, Nicaragua, Cuba and Panama
• Moro War in Philippine (1899-1913)
• Mexico Incursion (1910-1919)
• WW1 (1917-1918)

Did you actually read the article??

What's wrong with US trying to raise a Physical Fit and competent force? Should US let any Dick, Jack and Jane into the US Military? No. The US war doctrine have been focus on Less manpower and more technological advance ever since WW2, the last war US Army have a size of 1 millions +, the current unit strength are at 450,000 and they are all elite, so what's wrong if the US army say no to Drunk, Drug Addicts and the Overweights?

Mind you, there are nothing wrong about being "Clinically Overweight" If you have served in the military you will know, you are classed as Clinically Overweight if you have a BMI of over 30 for male. And since you need to be bluff (Muscular) to be in the Military, Most soldier is "Clinically Obese"

Being Clinically overweight or obese will not be kicked out of the Military, fail to pass the PT test will, and for most man in US military they are fit and overweight, I was 185 cm tall and 103 kg before I went to Ranger Course. I was clinically overweight, that does not mean I am not fit.

Mind You, being 25% still mean 5 millions American were fit for service annually, and the US military don't even need half of those.



Most of these FPS gamer don't know why there are two separate corps in US in charge of any US military Unit, that's the Officer Corps and the NCO corps

The importance of NCO is they are tried and tested, mostly, by actual war. For a just commissioned 2LT, yes, you were send to command a platoon, but the actual person who lead the platoon is your platoon sergeant, cause you will have to use the officer management skill couple with the Senior NCO experience to lead the troop effectively.
That's why when I was a yahoo platoon leader, I was heavily rely on my senior NCO for advice. That is not something people never fought in war will know.

HA, enlisted grunts get promoted does not necessarily mean they have experience, let alone combat experience. just that they prefer to stay in the military, or so called " more dedicated" , just go to one of a dozen specialized schools and get points, no need to go to war at all. plus If you have a masters degree when you join, you over-qualify E-4, so its kinda hard not to get promoted to NCO in your 4 years of enlistment LOL , most NCO has been in the military for a long time, yes, Combat experienced? not really. thats why they make NCOs salute the USMA grads, not the other way around.

 

[jhungary]

HA, enlisted grunts get promoted does not necessarily mean they have experience, let alone combat experience. just that they prefer to stay in the military, or so called " more dedicated" , just go to one of a dozen specialized schools and get points, no need to go to war at all. plus If you have a masters degree when you join, you over-qualify E-4, so its kinda hard not to get promoted to NCO in your 4 years of enlistment LOL , most NCO has been in the military for a long time, yes, Combat experienced? not really. thats why they make NCOs salute the USMA grads, not the other way around.

you sir, have seriously misunderstand or ignorant about Military Structure.

First of all, Spec 4 is not NCO, E-4 Corporal is. You can have a PhD and enlist, at most they will give you is a Spec 4, which take at least 4 years for a Spec 4 to promote to a E-5 regardless. PhD qualified E-4 would not have special treatment to get promotion as Promotion to E-5 is space based, meaning if there were not an opening, there will not be a promotion.

Then the second thing is, Platoon Sergeant is a senior NCO position, E-5 is a Junior NCO, it would take 10+ (12 to 14 in general), year for any soldier to get from E-5 to E-7 (the rank for Platoon Sergeant), for those who don't know at home, that's 17 years in the Army.

US having seen war every 10 years in the last 70 years, so chances are and the chances are really good, the Platoon sergeant would have seen war at least one time at any given period in the last 70 years. There are not too many Platoon Sergeant to go around, and you can't get to that point without at least 5 service stripe.

And do you even know who yell command for Officer to salute in formation? They make that a senior NCO job for a reason.

 

[sicsheep]

you sir, have seriously misunderstand or ignorant about Military Structure.

First of all, Spec 4 is not NCO, E-4 Corporal is. You can have a PhD and enlist, at most they will give you is a Spec 4, which take at least 4 years for a Spec 4 to promote to a E-5 regardless. PhD qualified E-4 would not have special treatment to get promotion as Promotion to E-5 is space based, meaning if there were not an opening, there will not be a promotion.

Then the second thing is, Platoon Sergeant is a senior NCO position, E-5 is a Junior NCO, it would take 10+ (12 to 14 in general), year for any soldier to get from E-5 to E-7 (the rank for Platoon Sergeant), for those who don't know at home, that's 17 years in the Army.

US having seen war every 10 years in the last 70 years, so chances are and the chances are really good, the Platoon sergeant would have seen war at least one time at any given period in the last 70 years. There are not too many Platoon Sergeant to go around, and you can't get to that point without at least 5 service stripe.

And do you even know who yell command for Officer to salute in formation? They make that a senior NCO job for a reason.

What I said was if you join as E-4, its not at all a big effort to get promoted to E-5 Junior or not, its still NCO. so the conclusion is even in US military, degree matters, not experience. tell me I'm wrong LOL.

Either for enlisted to officer or enlisted to NCO, degree is KEY, doest matter you get it before you join or after, honestly tell me you have only a HSD.

 

[jhungary]

What I said was if you join as E-4, its not at all a big effort to get promoted to E-5 Junior or not, its still NCO. so the conclusion is even in US military, degree matters, not experience. tell me I'm wrong LOL.

Umm, you are wrong.

Being degree qualified, the only advantage you can get is to skip E-1 to E-3, which lasted 14 month in service. Promotion thru E-4 to E-9 is based on a point base/interview system that based majority on Service and Experience.

Promotion with Semi-centralised and Centralised system are a point system, where the Centralised promotion system also have a interview system to goes with it, and the point does not stretch out much if the applicant have a degree (Associated, Bachelor, Master or PhD)

The Point system included are

1. 
   
   
   • Duty Performance (150 points)
   • Award (100 points)
   • Military Education (200 points)
   • Civilian Education (100 points)
   • Training (100 points)
   • Promotion Board (150 points)

Having a college education would mean you are only advantage in Civilian Education part, mind you, depend on which MOS you are seeking promotion, sometime a trade diploma (Like a mechanic license) worth more point than a Degree.


So, being Degree educated type, your only advantage is skipped E-2 to E-3 (Still E-1 in training, unless ROTC member. and the 100 point out of 800 in promotional scale. So if degree matter? You tell me

Either for enlisted to officer or enlisted to NCO, degree is KEY, doest matter you get it before you join or after, honestly tell me you have only a HSD.

The question is, Senior NCOs are only lower in rank than Junior Officer, (in Swedish military, a Staff Sergeant Outrank a Lieutenant, A Sergeant Major outrank a Captain.) They have more respect to the enlisted, The question is how do you respect your guy and a 2LT to command a platoon. You don't actually command the platoon as a 2LT, you let your Sergeant run the platoon, that's why I said 2Lt command the platoon but it's always the Platoon sergeant who led them, BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE. Almost all SFC have combat experience because they have to be at least 15 years in the Army.

I enlist after i done 1 year in College in Hong Kong, then I choose the ROTC/Green for Gold pass and I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant upon College Graduation
On the other hand, you can be an officer in certain way without HAVING a DEGREE things like Enlist Commission program or High School to Flight School program.

 

[Keel]

Did you actually read the article??

What's wrong with US trying to raise a Physical Fit and competent force? Should US let any Dick, Jack and Jane into the US Military? No. The US war doctrine have been focus on Less manpower and more technological advance ever since WW2, the last war US Army have a size of 1 millions +, the current unit strength are at 450,000 and they are all elite, so what's wrong if the US army say no to Drunk, Drug Addicts and the Overweights?

Mind you, there are nothing wrong about being "Clinically Overweight" If you have served in the military you will know, you are classed as Clinically Overweight if you have a BMI of over 30 for male. And since you need to be bluff (Muscular) to be in the Military, Most soldier is "Clinically Obese"

Being Clinically overweight or obese will not be kicked out of the Military, fail to pass the PT test will, and for most man in US military they are fit and overweight, I was 185 cm tall and 103 kg before I went to Ranger Course. I was clinically overweight, that does not mean I am not fit.

Mind You, being 25% still mean 5 millions American were fit for service annually, and the US military don't even need half of those.

.

If you cant understand the gravity of the news I cant help you

ps
you are the MOST obnoxious person I met on PDF so far and ever giving me FIVE negative ratings on most frivolous matters that are nooooone of your business!

edit: stop bs you are pro and stop insulting Chinese; also look in the mirror of your own bizarre behaviour before you accuse others! It all sucks!

My "insults" on other members? Let the members be the judges:

1. on citicizing you as illiterate for writing poor incohesive, bad spelling and erroneus grammatical comments contrary to your claim of living in the west and getting college degress blah blah and the impact of your family's involvement in Agentina's war with the Brits over Islas Malvinas - 2 negative ratings
2. on critizing gambit as "loser" when he insult a Chinese website as "zombie" He got banned I didnt report him for that at all - 2 negative ratings
3. on asking for Gabriel ethnic identity - 1 negative rating


Repeat: you are ignored on my PDF activities

 

[jhungary]

If you cant understand the gravity of the news I cant help you

ps
you are the MOST obnoxious person I met on PDF so far and ever giving me FIVE negative ratings on frivolous matters that are nooooone of your business!

Repeat: you are ignored on my PDF activities

lol, that the US Army is selective? Or the American is getting more obese?

Dude, if you don't want negative rating, QUIT INSULTING OTHER PEOPLE

 

[xunzi]

In 1979 war, VN main forces were just women militia and border guards but 600,000 'well trained' PLA guys still being pushed back in few week and failed to forces VN army to pull back from Kam.

China also lost in CN-Taiwan conflict where your poorly trained pilots were shot down like mosquitoes

LOL You were so scare in 1979 that all of your top troops in Cambodia pull out to confront our 2nd-rate PLA and we still manage to inflict serious damage to you which is the objective of Deng, "to teach you a lesson".

 

[BoQ77]

LOL You were so scare in 1979 that all of your top troops in Cambodia pull out to confront our 2nd-rate PLA and we still manage to inflict serious damage to you which is the objective of Deng, "to teach you a lesson".

I remember that all pulled out in 1989, not 1979.

 

[xunzi]

I remember that all pulled out in 1989, not 1979.

Go ask your uncle.

 

[sicsheep]

Umm, you are wrong.

Being degree qualified, the only advantage you can get is to skip E-1 to E-3, which lasted 14 month in service. Promotion thru E-4 to E-9 is based on a point base/interview system that based majority on Service and Experience.

Promotion with Semi-centralised and Centralised system are a point system, where the Centralised promotion system also have a interview system to goes with it, and the point does not stretch out much if the applicant have a degree (Associated, Bachelor, Master or PhD)

The Point system included are

1. 
   
   
   • Duty Performance (150 points)
   • Award (100 points)
   • Military Education (200 points)
   • Civilian Education (100 points)
   • Training (100 points)
   • Promotion Board (150 points)

Having a college education would mean you are only advantage in Civilian Education part, mind you, depend on which MOS you are seeking promotion, sometime a trade diploma (Like a mechanic license) worth more point than a Degree.


So, being Degree educated type, your only advantage is skipped E-2 to E-3 (Still E-1 in training, unless ROTC member. and the 100 point out of 800 in promotional scale. So if degree matter? You tell me



The question is, Senior NCOs are only lower in rank than Junior Officer, (in Swedish military, a Staff Sergeant Outrank a Lieutenant, A Sergeant Major outrank a Captain.) They have more respect to the enlisted, The question is how do you respect your guy and a 2LT to command a platoon. You don't actually command the platoon as a 2LT, you let your Sergeant run the platoon, that's why I said 2Lt command the platoon but it's always the Platoon sergeant who led them, BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE. Almost all SFC have combat experience because they have to be at least 15 years in the Army.

I enlist after i done 1 year in College in Hong Kong, then I choose the ROTC/Green for Gold pass and I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant upon College Graduation
On the other hand, you can be an officer in certain way without HAVING a DEGREE things like Enlist Commission program or High School to Flight School program.

its good you actually brought up Enlist Commission Program, to be eligible for that program, you either already have a degree or they send you back to school to get one, army OCS also require a degree.

they tell you NCO is just as important, but they are just the older, lead soldier, he passes down commands to his platoon sure, but where does he get his orders from?? the fact is NCOs do not have any real command.

So even in US military, experience is just one of many factors. and US military believes more things can be taught in schools.

 

[jhungary]

its good you actually brought up Enlist Commission Program, to be eligible for that program, you either already have a degree or they send you back to school to get one, army OCS also require a degree.

they tell you NCO is just as important, but they are just the older, lead soldier, he passes down commands to his platoon sure, but where does he get his orders from?? the fact is NCOs do not have any real command.

So even in US military, experience is just one of many factors. and US military believes more things can be taught in schools.

lol, as I said, it probably better for you to talk to any recruiting station if all you think about senior NCO is being older. As I said, and listed the requirement for promotion, ages is not listed as one of them, and 4 out of 6 is about experience. and you can still say degree is most important lol, I got nothing more I can say.

by the way, you are thinking Early Commission Program, some Enlist Commission program offer non-degree entry thru Direct commission, where you can use on-job experience to substitute for a degree qualification, of course this is not the entry for professional branch (like Judge Advocate or Engineering Branch)