4 Reasons China Can Fight a Modern War

[Neptune]

This article sounded a lot like those member in this forum would say, although to be completely honest with you, i stopped reading after "Third, miltary experience is overvalued"

@gambit @Neptune @SvenSvensonov

Perhaps it's because of the FPS video games lol. Most people especially those hang around in forums such as this have the obsession that military training is all about getting to learn how to fire a rifle and move in a formation which perhaps is only 10% of the job to be honest. Countless examples can be given. For the post-Cold War period Gen. Swartzkopf would be a good example to someone arguing the overestimating of military experience.

Man I have read all the articles you have mentioned me recently but I had the first part of my higher education entrance exams. So didn't have any free time put feedback. Carry on with the stories corner lol.

Third, military experience is overvalued.

During the Colonial-era, It is sure that the Royan Navy was the builder of the mighty British Empire. How did they manage to it? Large fleet with Redjacks and powerful cannons? Most studies underline the fact of the experience gained was the sole black box of the enlargement. Doctrines, strategies and more are planned upon the combat capabilities of the countries but drawn by the pen of experience.

The PLA might suffer early setbacks once a war starts, but the final outcome will more likely depend on comprehensive capabilities and strategy

THEN how the heck EDOK (Education, Training, Doctrines) and its equalivents are mostly but not fully based on the military experiences where an army can see its weaknesses and limits which itself is that "comprehensive capabilities and strategy"

 

[northeast]

会叫的狗不咬人，咬人的狗从不叫 ...

没见过中国咬人，别YY

 

[jhungary]

Perhaps it's because of the FPS video games lol. Most people especially those hang around in forums such as this have the obsession that military training is all about getting to learn how to fire a rifle and move in a formation which perhaps is only 10% of the job to be honest. Countless examples can be given. For the post-Cold War period Gen. Swartzkopf would be a good example to someone arguing the overestimating of military experience.

Man I have read all the articles you have mentioned me recently but I had the first part of my higher education entrance exams. So didn't have any free time put feedback. Carry on with the stories corner lol.






During the Colonial-era, It is sure that the Royan Navy was the builder of the mighty British Empire. How did they manage to it? Large fleet with Redjacks and powerful cannons? Most studies underline the fact of the experience gained was the sole black box of the enlargement. Doctrines, strategies and more are planned upon the combat capabilities of the countries but drawn by the pen of experience.



THEN how the heck EDOK (Education, Training, Doctrines) and its equalivents are mostly but not fully based on the military experiences where an army can see its weaknesses and limits which itself is that "comprehensive capabilities and strategy"

lol i thought you were banned...

And yeah, most people never see ot hear from the receiving end of a gun would most probably put in the term experience was overvalued...But still, how did that dude can get an assistant professorship is beyond me, i guess some time you are better off spend 1 year in battle then dig into books for 10 years.

I usually just quote you to say "hey, check this out and have a laugh" so you can actually ignore most of my quote is you are busy...hehe

good luck for your exam, been there myself, dont forget to boil a boat load of coffee...I did drank 2 gallon of coffee to get thru my master dissertation...

This...


...Rendered the article a 'dumbass' article, with all due respect to Mr. Dingding, who is apparently a person of respect at the University of Macau.

Experience does not guarantee success/victory, but what experience does guarantee is increased options when faced with unexpected and/or new obstacles.


When there are two inexperienced armies fighting against each other, other factors will come into prominence, such as technology, terrain/geographical advantages, political alliances, training, and/or even fortunes from the weather. What inexperience often, if not usually, does is to delay the exploitation of those factors, or worse -- blind the army of their advantages. China's lack of combat experience might hurt the PLA's chances of winning against the US ? No...Said lack of combat experience WILL hurt the PLA's chance (singular) of winning against the US. There is no 'might' about it. Not only does the US have so much more combat experience, the US military also enjoys at least one -- but more like two -- generation of technological advances. Then compound this with an all-volunteer force that not only is reasonably educated prior to service but received additional focused and specialized training after entry into service. Finally, put all these factors into the hands of the world's most capable military NCO corps and the odds of winning against the US military is all but assured to be -- ZILCH0.

Fine...I will be generous and say: 1 %.

The PLA against non-US rivals ? It depends on who. Against Japan ? Not likely the PLA will win, unless China is willing to be sacrificial of her men and revisit the tried-and-trued human wave tactic. That is one factor that China does have ample experience in, and also the easiest to exploit. Below actual combat experience is quality of training and the Japanese is a high beneficiary of US military combat experience and training. While the PLA is nominally a 'military' under that general label, what actual 'military stuff' does the PLA have over the JSDF when for most of the PLA's existence it have been used primarily for domestic pacification, whereas the JSDF have often sent its forces into UN sanctioned missions ? If anything, despite the JSDF being smaller in size from the PLA, the JSDF have the greater vision than the PLA on what is a true professional military. Institutional memory about warfare ? The JSDF have the advantage over the PLA on this factor as well. When the Chinese were struggling with firearms, the Japanese defeated the Russian Navy and built some of the world's best air fighters. Despite being defeated, the Japanese military remained essentially unbroken in lineage whereas the PLA was essentially cobbled together and built up from a force of guerrilla fighters at the end of WW II.

Overall, Mr. Dingding's article is so general in scope that it might as well be 1mm next to worthless in helping a serious student of military affairs.

its not about Military Experience itself, ie the winning and losing, but rather how one can absorb from previous success and most importantly failure.

Take The raid of dieppe , the Canadian got cut to pieces when they land their wave underfire, that highlight the importance of Infantry getting off the landing craft, thats the most vulnerable point when you land your infantry, as there are only one travel direction, forward. The British saw this, and they focus on the failure part and devise a amphibious warfare system that base on this concept, compare to the US landing troop, we dont have that and for one battle and one campaign, we can see the clear different.

The foremost important issue is, you have to have combat experience for you to digest and improve, or else you can simulate whatever the hell you want, wargaming fighting with yourselves is not the same as actual fighting to your enemy, that can never be replaced

 

[gambit]

Post-WWII, we haven't lost a war that we engaged in, by directly or indirectly, since the formation of PRC.

Korean War 1950s
Indian-Sino War 1960s
Vietnam-US War 1970s
Sino-Vietnam War 1980s (including 1979 and 1988)
Afghanistan-Soviet War 1980s

With these facts, we are still an inexperience fighting force, yet Japan, is the more experience force at because they train with the US and play humanitarian supporting role for UN peace keeping? ARE YOU FUCKING DUMB? LOLOL If anything, we are the one who contribute the most to UN peacekeeping force.

It is indeed laughable to put us down. Like we always said, talk is cheap. You think you can defeat us, then fire the first shot. We have been accused of creating ADIZ and Island Building, but no one got the gut to fire at us. After all, winning a war depend whether you got the ball in the first place or not. The ability to extend the war with your industrial strength (either through yourself or with support from other powers) and the will to suffer from war damage are the most important factors in every war. Vietcong won based on that concept.

People like you are the ones most likely believe like the perfesser: That experience is overrated.

The Korean War ? That was exactly what I described: Human wave tactic. The Vietnam War ? You call Chinese participation in POW interrogation and manning air defense as a combatant ? Look in the mirror to see who is the dummy, son.

 

[Neptune]

lol i thought you were banned...

And yeah, most people never see ot hear from the receiving end of a gun would most probably put in the term experience was overvalued...But still, how did that dude can get an assistant professorship is beyond me, i guess some time you are better off spend 1 year in battle then dig into books for 10 years.

I usually just quote you to say "hey, check this out and have a laugh" so you can actually ignore most of my quote is you are busy...hehe

good luck for your exam, been there myself, dont forget to boil a boat load of coffee...I did drank 2 gallon of coffee to get thru my master dissertation...



its not about Military Experience itself, ie the winning and losing, but rather how one can absorb from previous success and most importantly failure.

Take The raid of dieppe , the Canadian got cut to pieces when they land their wave underfire, that highlight the importance of Infantry getting off the landing craft, thats the most vulnerable point when you land your infantry, as there are only one travel direction, forward. The British saw this, and they focus on the failure part and devise a amphibious warfare system that base on this concept, compare to the US landing troop, we dont have that and for one battle and one campaign, we can see the clear different.

The foremost important issue is, you have to have combat experience for you to digest and improve, or else you can simulate whatever the hell you want, wargaming fighting with yourselves is not the same as actual fighting to your enemy, that can never be replaced

Instead of getting painted in pink, I usually face an account deactivation lol

It happens..when someone gets to have a saying after watching movies and stuff. That makes me angry. Seems like you gotta get more "experience" to be an assistant professor or sth..poor you fella lol. But I think its kinda better for service members. Because than we would have to hear voices from every hole.

Quotes ahaha..Life is not perfect u know . I will be honest. For the last four weeks I probably paid more than 105TRY only for coffee which is equal to 40-45 bucks.

 

[GR!FF!N]

LOL ok, I can give you more example,
the Wehrmacht was the most experienced fighting force on earth when Allies landed in Normandy. Did they win?
The Iraqi army had been fighting Iran for 8 years before they invaded Kuwait, while US last major war was Vietnam. Who won?

Wehrmacht war nearly expended when Allies made landing.by the way,D-Day was a major success of Allies' Spies.That was the reason why Germany concentrated their major force at Pas-de-Calais while they landed in Normandy.seriously,you need to study about D-Day details(Especially Deception Plan).Luftwaffe was unavailable,No Heavy Tanks,Fire support was nutrilized,but even then Allied suffered around 10:1 casualty against German.also,only 2 beaches were heavily fortified.others were relatively lightly guarded.

About Iraq-Iran war,do we really reached to the conclusion that Iraq was an experienced fighting force??also,how they hell they were supposed to face USA,greatest fighting force world has ever seen??

For every one you come up that says experience matters, I can give you 5 that tells otherwise, where numbers, location, firepower, and leadership can alll trump experience. I am not saying experience doesn't matter, but its just one of many many factors.

BTW, hows 1962 for a sweet defeat handed to you huh? you definitely still remember that one.

same Chinese 1962 stories and f@rt,that generally leads a thread to the drain.the topic is China kiddo,and we're going to highlight whether experience matters or not(for certain conditions and relatively warfighting capability parity)??

 

[jhungary]

Instead of getting painted in pink, I usually face an account deactivation lol

It happens..when someone gets to have a saying after watching movies and stuff. That makes me angry. Seems like you gotta get more "experience" to be an assistant professor or sth..poor you fella lol. But I think its kinda better for service members. Because than we would have to hear voices from every hole.

Quotes ahaha..Life is not perfect u know . I will be honest. For the last four weeks I probably paid more than 105TRY only for coffee which is equal to 40-45 bucks.

lol, well, i used to play COD3 on xbox, you wont believe how stupid some gamer can be...

about getting ban , seems like u are not the only one lol, getting quite jumpy when somebody cross me with stuff they dont know

and coffee, well, what can i say except CO.FF.EE

 

[Genesis]

reminds me about the Battle of Yalu River,in fact about both Sino-Japanese Wars.May I remind you,same kind of approach was taken in the past,say 125 years ago from now,and in both occasion,Japan handed over China a sweet defeat.

First of all Sino Japanese war, other than the first one, WW2, we were victorious. Just before the atomic bomb, Chang was about to launch an offensive to go all the way back to Nanjing. Now regarding experience, America had far less experience in WW2, or no experience, while Japan's been fighting since before '31.

The Americans defeated the Japanese with a lot less causalities.

Experience matters, relatively. While against an inferior but experienced army, that will just result in some initial shock, while against someone of similar technological level, but also no experience, that's hard to say.

America is like a cheat code at this point, experience doesn't need to come into the equation.

From my point of view,Experience is most important part of a War,even more than equipments.reminds me about Winter war and Continuation war,hopelessly inferior Finland fought a battle that stunned SU,their brute force failed to win that small nation,mainly because of Stalin's purge left most of the lower level soldiers of SU inexperienced,while Fins showed excellent knowledge of local geography and tactical superiority and experience,mounted staggering casualties on SU.

China does need 10-15 years to be able to fight effectively, army is going through some tough reforms, and new equipments are still too new, but change is everywhere. You can see it in action, if you follow the current military news, not published in American media.

Though, some thing to consider, China's "enemies" other than the US all have no experience.

 

[gambit]

The foremost important issue is, you have to have combat experience for you to digest and improve, or else you can simulate whatever the hell you want, wargaming fighting with yourselves is not the same as actual fighting to your enemy, that can never be replaced

I can still remember my first exercise back in 1985. USAFE inspectors were all over the base and they were handling out 'death cards', basically, we were simulating casualties, from humans to equipment, which includes jets, to simulate combat stress about being undermanned but still meeting 'fully mission capable' (FMC) jets for the day's sorties. It was a bit of a joke. Those who were 'killed' considered it a break from the exercise. They did not have to wear chem gear whenever a 'condition black' siren went off. They were the 'dead', or the 'walking dead'. They get to hang out at the BBQ pad that every squadron have and smoke, eat, and drink as they wish.

I grew up during the Vietnam War and by 12 yrs old, I had seen plenty of the dead. I told my squadron mates that what we were doing was nothing compare to the real stress if we had to generate jets around the real dead whose bodies have not been removed or even covered. What it would be like if we had to work wounded because of triage when the docs said our wounds were not life threatening. Not only wounded but also tired from lack of sleep because of repeated air raid alarms, some real and some not. Not only wounded, tired from lack of sleep, but also from hunger because enemy attacks destroyed parcels of the base's food supply. The inspectors have no cards for these things.

This is what the perfessor who declared combat experience is overrated does not seems to understand. The totality of combat experience includes secondary experience and even non-combat experience that stresses an army's ability to sustain a fight. As an Air Force guy, I am removed from direct combat. But that does not mean I am removed from the environment that became a desirable target for the enemy -- my base. As such, I can be attacked but unable to retaliate in kind. How an airbase compensate for this is one of the many difficult to quantify experience that strengthened a military unit. Seeing your men virtually 'killed' and seeing their bodies actually destroyed do not produce the same psychological effects.

Wise leadership who have been through these traumas know the value, or rather the invaluable contribution, of those who survived actual combat experience, whether that experience is of an infantryman or a pilot or a ship's firefighter or tank driver, and make efforts to record their experience for later generation of warfighters to learn from.

The PLA is a corrupt, inefficient, and ill motivated force. By ill motivated, I mean China has to institute a conscription policy in order to maintain a standing army. No doubt, there are plenty of individuals inside the PLA who were/are truly motivated by love of country, but they are also smart enough to realize that the military they love and serve are not of the Chinese people but rather the military appendage of The Party, and as such, their loyalty are less than desirable and when actually stressed under combat pressure, their ability to sustain the fight will be suspect.

The refusal to acknowledge these difficult to quantify and intangible factors of the military life and combat experience is what make the Chinese members here so naive about the PLA. Just like how so many of us young American airmen back then thought we could handle a real war just because we were short a few men who still lives and enjoys their respite from an exercise, the Chinese members here deluded themselves into believing the PLA can easily win any war because China built a few fancy jet fighters and ships.

 

[rott]

Excelent answer! This dude is surely know what to do to his toilet! I give my thanks to his post!

Is that all you can drum up? Lol "this dude is surely know what to do to his toilet"? Is that even English?

 

[sicsheep]

I can still remember my first exercise back in 1985. USAFE inspectors were all over the base and they were handling out 'death cards', basically, we were simulating casualties, from humans to equipment, which includes jets, to simulate combat stress about being undermanned but still meeting 'fully mission capable' (FMC) jets for the day's sorties. It was a bit of a joke. Those who were 'killed' considered it a break from the exercise. They did not have to wear chem gear whenever a 'condition black' siren went off. They were the 'dead', or the 'walking dead'. They get to hang out at the BBQ pad that every squadron have and smoke, eat, and drink as they wish.

I grew up during the Vietnam War and by 12 yrs old, I had seen plenty of the dead. I told my squadron mates that what we were doing was nothing compare to the real stress if we had to generate jets around the real dead whose bodies have not been removed or even covered. What it would be like if we had to work wounded because of triage when the docs said our wounds were not life threatening. Not only wounded but also tired from lack of sleep because of repeated air raid alarms, some real and some not. Not only wounded, tired from lack of sleep, but also from hunger because enemy attacks destroyed parcels of the base's food supply. The inspectors have no cards for these things.

This is what the perfessor who declared combat experience is overrated does not seems to understand. The totality of combat experience includes secondary experience and even non-combat experience that stresses an army's ability to sustain a fight. As an Air Force guy, I am removed from direct combat. But that does not mean I am removed from the environment that became a desirable target for the enemy -- my base. As such, I can be attacked but unable to retaliate in kind. How an airbase compensate for this is one of the many difficult to quantify experience that strengthened a military unit. Seeing your men virtually 'killed' and seeing their bodies actually destroyed do not produce the same psychological effects.

Wise leadership who have been through these traumas know the value, or rather the invaluable contribution, of those who survived actual combat experience, whether that experience is of an infantryman or a pilot or a ship's firefighter or tank driver, and make efforts to record their experience for later generation of warfighters to learn from.

The PLA is a corrupt, inefficient, and ill motivated force. By ill motivated, I mean China has to institute a conscription policy in order to maintain a standing army. No doubt, there are plenty of individuals inside the PLA who were/are truly motivated by love of country, but they are also smart enough to realize that the military they love and serve are not of the Chinese people but rather the military appendage of The Party, and as such, their loyalty are less than desirable and when actually stressed under combat pressure, their ability to sustain the fight will be suspect.

The refusal to acknowledge these difficult to quantify and intangible factors of the military life and combat experience is what make the Chinese members here so naive about the PLA. Just like how so many of us young American airmen back then thought we could handle a real war just because we were short a few men who still lives and enjoys their respite from an exercise, the Chinese members here deluded themselves into believing the PLA can easily win any war because China built a few fancy jet fighters and ships.

hahaha ill motivated?
PLA drafts are entirely voluntary? Can you show me some source about the conscription policy?
Israel and taiwan both have (in taiwan's case had) a conscription policy, does that mean their military is not effective??
Half of the people sign up for US military to get money for college, the other half just trying to get citizenship, hows that for ill motivated

 

[xunzi]

People like you are the ones most likely believe like the perfesser: That experience is overrated.

The Korean War ? That was exactly what I described: Human wave tactic. The Vietnam War ? You call Chinese participation in POW interrogation and manning air defense as a combatant ? Look in the mirror to see who is the dummy, son.

You are hilarious, my friend, a joker I must say. LOL Does any rule book say you can't deploy human wave tactic in a war? In a war, all tactics are on the table. What we deploy in the past does not mean we will use the same tactic. You have to remember that back then, our weaponry capability is severely lacking, so we have to make up with foot soldiers. Today it is different story, my friend. LOL

Rest assure, my friend, in the Vietnam war, we did more than providing air cover for the VC. Anyhow, the US soliders are overrated. You always fight with superior weapon and have better equipments, yet you hardly can defeat the VC. Beating up some desert Iraqi doesn't make you invincible. LOL In fact, if you put one division vs ISIS division on the ground without any air cover, use mainly gun and grenade , I bet the ISIS would kick your *** 9/10 time. LOL

hahaha ill motivated?
PLA drafts are entirely voluntary? Can you show me some source about the conscription policy?
Israel and taiwan both have (in taiwan's case had) a conscription policy, does that mean their military is not effective??
Half of the people sign up for US military to get money for college, the other half just trying to get citizenship, hows that for ill motivated

Not too long ago, there was a study and report that came out saying most US soldiers are high school dropout or gang members. LOL

 

[gambit]

hahaha ill motivated?
PLA drafts are entirely voluntary? Can you show me some source about the conscription policy?

You mean like this...

PLA conscription target in 2013 can be reached

The Internet search feature too difficult to understand and use ?

Israel and taiwan both have (in taiwan's case had) a conscription policy, does that mean their military is not effective??

No, it does not. But am willing to guess your simplistic counter argument is based upon -- what else -- no military experience and not even a cursory study of the issue.

Conscription as an issue cannot be discussed by itself. To have a national mandatory military service, even a dictatorship must present at least a facile justification for the policy. In the case of Israel and Taiwan, both countries believes their existence are at stake and it is not that difficult to see how they came to that conclusion and justification for a national mandatory military service policy.

The PLA may present the same argument, but what make the PLA, not slightly different, but seriously different is the corruption that permeates the ranks, from the top generals and admirals all the way down to the enlisted. It is so bad that it is an open secret. In your China, military vehicles can ignore traffic laws at will. In the US, a county deputy sheriff can arrest the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff if he/she violate any law. The PLA own corporations and its leaderships sits on those corporations' boards of directorships. Officers up/down the chain of command extort money from the enlisted and sold ranks and assignments as opportunities opens themselves. Merit and technical competency takes back seats to party connections and money. So yes, conscription in this context make the PLA an ill motivated force whose abilities and willingness to fight are under question.

Half of the people sign up for US military to get money for college, the other half just trying to get citizenship, hows that for ill motivated

Nothing wrong with enticement and persuasions. Better than force, ya think ? But of course you are in the US where you can safely criticize the government without fear.

 

[Keel]

Unlike some of the american fanboys here jumping left or right, this is the news that the us military people at the helm wont be feeling too proud of

Only one-in-four Americans fit to serve in the military
Published time: May 17, 2013 20:22
Get short URL

Reuters / Jessica Rinaldi

Arms, Army, Education, Health, Military,USA

Most Americans are ineligible to join the military, either because they’re drug users, obese, medically unfit, failed to graduate high school, or have criminal records. The Pentagon estimates that only 25 percent of Americans are qualified.

Military officials claim that they are able to be more selective, largely because the high youth unemployment rate and the drawdowns in Iraq and Afghanistan have prompted more people to apply.

“There’s a lot more competition,” Sergeant First Class Israel Herrera told CNN. “There are not many opportunities out there, but the Army provides employment and stability, and that makes it an attractive option.”

But for the overwhelming majority of US citizens, joining the military has become difficult – especially amid continuously rising obesity rates and high unemployment.

More than 20 percent of high school students drop out before their graduation, 35 percent of Americans are obese or medically disqualified, 19 percent are drug or heavy alcohol users, and 5 percent have criminal records. These factors bar Americans from joining the military, and only one quarter of today’s youth are fit to join, the Pentagon estimates.

“Before 2009, we would probably be able to give you an example of a young man or young woman who got in with a simple possession of marijuana charge,” Herrera said. “They would not get a waiver these days.”

Six years ago, only 86 percent of new military recruits had a high school diploma, but today 99 percent of all new recruits have one. In 2005, the military suffered a shortage of new enlistees, while in recent years it has always had a surplus.

The trend has caused some to wonder if an improved economy would lower recruiting standards, since the poor economy has allowed the military to be selective.

“As we see signs of economic improvement, we must remain vigilant and continue to monitor impacts on our recruiting efforts,” Acting Under Secretary of Defense Jessica Wright told the Senate Armed Forces Committee last month.

But even if the military accepts less qualified Americans, the Pentagon estimates shed an alarming light on the numbers of people who are too overweight or uneducated to serve the country even if they wanted to.

With many Americans ineligible to join the military due to obesity, some members of Congress are trying to address the problem. Sens. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) and Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) on Thursdayintroduced the Fit to Serve Act, which will provide support for military leaders who want to provide their base’s sports fields and gyms to youth who need a place to exercise.

The US military discharges more than 1,200 first-time enlistees every year due to weight gain, and nearly one in 20 current service members are clinically overweight, the senators wrote in a press release.

“Obesity is the single greatest non-criminal hindrance for our young people seeking to enlist in the armed forces,” Sen. Murkowski said. “We want our young women and men to seek to serve their country to have basic information on what healthy weight means.”

黄山 Huang Mountain
Oil on canvas

 

[Brainsucker]

Is that all you can drum up? Lol "this dude is surely know what to do to his toilet"? Is that even English?

Don't you know the art of cleaning a toilet? You must learn If you still don't understand what I write here, then I can't help you Well dunno if it's even English? Is it English?