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$4.1bn C-17 aircraft deal set to get bigger, 6 more coming

Let me quote myself

Is this price confirmed by any official Indian, or US source? It would be good, because the older reports hinted a price of $5.8 billions, which definitelly would have been too costly.

And now what Boeing says:

India may have to pay more for C-17 airlifters: Boeing

The 10 Boeing C-17 heavy airlifters the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to buy could cost much more than the $4.1 billion initially tagged, Boeing says, a sure sign that hard bargaining is on the cards.

‘The figure of $4.1 million is not supportable,’ Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, told reporters here Tuesday, pointing out that the US Congress had accorded approval for a deal worth $5.8 billion.

When Congressional approval was sought for the deal under the foreign military sales (FMS) route it was for a fully-loaded aircraft, Chadwick explained. Theoretically, the cost could be lower but so would be its capabilities.

‘There has to be a government-to-government discussion. They have to decide what they want from the capability perspective,’ Chadwick added.

The C-17 purchase was among the big ticket deals valued at $10-15 billion that US President Barack Obama announced Saturday on the first day of his four-day visit to India that concluded early Tuesday.

According to Chadwick, the IAF order would create 20,000 jobs across 44 US states.

The IAF had zeroed in on the C-17 after a thorough study because of its capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads, long range and ease of operation. Price negotiations are now underway, and Chadwick said the IAF’s letter of acceptance (LOA) was expected soon with the final deal to be clinched sometime in 2011.

‘The figure of $4.1 billion is a random figure taken off the net,’ Chadwick said.

When it was pointed out that the figure had been posted on the White House website, he retorted: ‘Then you must ask the White House. You should talk to the US government.’

The IAF needs the C-17 as a replacement for its fleet of some 20 Soviet-era Il-76 transports that were acquired in the 1980s and for which spares are now difficult to obtain.

An IL-76 can carry a cargo of around 45 tonnes and has a crew of six while a C-17 can carry 70 tonnes, and is much easier to operate with a small crew of two pilots and one loadmaster (total three), thanks to its various power-assisted systems. Two observers can also be seated.

Despite its massive size – 174 ft length, 55 ft height and about 170 ft wingspan – a pilot can fly the C-17 with a simple joystick, much like a fighter aircraft, which can be lifesaving in a battle zone as the aircraft can take off quickly and at steep angles. It is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F-117-PW-100 turbofan engines.

The C-17 is the mainstay of the US forces for worldwide deployment, and can be refuelled midair. It is the lifeline of US and NATO troops deployed in Afghanistan and before that in Iraq.

According to Boeing, the high-wing, 4-engine, multi-service T-tailed military-transport C-17 can carry large equipment including tanks, supplies and troops directly to small airfields in harsh terrain anywhere in the world, day or night.

The sturdy, long-haul aircraft tackles distance, destination and heavy, oversized payloads in unpredictable conditions. It has delivered cargo in every worldwide operation since the 1990s.

It can take off from a 7,600-ft airfield, fly 2,400 nautical miles, refuel while in flight for longer range, and land in 3,000 ft or less on a small unpaved or paved airfield day or night.

The aircraft can also be used as an aerial ambulance.

India may have to pay more for C-17 airlifters: Boeing
 
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Holy cow, I thought $4.1 billion was expensive, now $5.8 too? Isn't it better to buy 20 Il-76's rather than 10 C-17's? Can India buy any An-124? $400+ million dollars per plane seems a bit excessive for a developing nation.
 
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Holy cow, I thought $4.1 billion was expensive, now $5.8 too? Isn't it better to buy 20 Il-76's rather than 10 C-17's? Can India buy any An-124? $400+ million dollars per plane seems a bit excessive for a developing nation.

The point seems to be the MBT transporting capability, IL 76 can transport only the older T72 tanks, but T90 and Arjun seems too big in size and weight. AFAIK there is no other aircraft that could carry them and is able of take off and landing on unprepared air strips. However, I have some big doubts too, if this capability makes it worth to pay so much more and am surprised that the finance ministry is not saying anything here!

C17 - price of $580 millions / 77t payload
A400M - $175 millions / 32 - 37t payload
A330 MRTT - $200 - 300 millions / 45t payload (in refuelling role)
IL 76 MF - $50 - 100 millions / 60t payload

So even if we take the maximum reported costs, we could by these 3 aircrafts instead of 1 C17 and increase not only the strategic transport capability, but also the air refuelling capability. Again, where is finance ministry now? :what:

Btw, the $580 millions each, for a deal of at least 10 x C17s seems to be true, if we take to account that Kuwait recently ordered 1 x C17 for $693 millions:

ASIAN DEFENCE: Foreign Military Sale of C-17 GLOBEMASTER III to Kuwait


still confusion on the price..

has the deal signed .......?

Not signed, but pretty much cleared now I guess.
 
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Holy cow, I thought $4.1 billion was expensive, now $5.8 too? Isn't it better to buy 20 Il-76's rather than 10 C-17's? Can India buy any An-124? $400+ million dollars per plane seems a bit excessive for a developing nation.
This might be slightly lesser in reality because IAF don't want the communication stuff onboard. Why'd we pay for something we don't want? $ 580 million is for the whole thing.
 
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we are not buying carrots and potatoes here!!! I mean the parameter is not only lifting capacity here...there are many others like short landing capacity,all weather lift, most advanced avionics and electronic defence etc which are less or completely absent in other machines.... the price depends on your requirements... I agree that we have to make sure that the requirements from army are justified and if so then we should pay it given there is no other options :cheers:
 
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we are not buying carrots and potatoes here!!! I mean the parameter is not only lifting capacity here...there are many others like short landing capacity,all weather lift, most advanced avionics and electronic defence etc which are less or completely absent in other machines.... the price depends on your requirements... I agree that we have to make sure that the requirements from army are justified and if so then we should pay it given there is no other options :cheers:

I disagree, 4 to 5 times the cost, just to lift tanks, is a big deal imo!
The latest IL 76 MF is said to take off and land form unprepeared airstrips and should get latest cockpit upgrades and avionics too. It's still not equal to the C17 of course, but way cheaper. My only concern is that we pay too much here, for just one requirement and have to compromise on an other procurements later.
 
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The point seems to be the MBT transporting capability, IL 76 can transport only the older T72 tanks, but T90 and Arjun seems too big in size and weight. AFAIK there is no other aircraft that could carry them and is able of take off and landing on unprepared air strips. However, I have some big doubts too, if this capability makes it worth to pay so much more and am surprised that the finance ministry is not saying anything here!

C17 - price of $580 millions / 77t payload
A400M - $175 millions / 32 - 37t payload
A330 MRTT - $200 - 300 millions / 45t payload (in refuelling role)
IL 76 MF - $50 - 100 millions / 60t payload

So even if we take the maximum reported costs, we could by these 3 aircrafts instead of 1 C17 and increase not only the strategic transport capability, but also the air refuelling capability. Again, where is finance ministry now? :what:

Btw, the $580 millions each, for a deal of at least 10 x C17s seems to be true, if we take to account that Kuwait recently ordered 1 x C17 for $693 millions:

ASIAN DEFENCE: Foreign Military Sale of C-17 GLOBEMASTER III to Kuwait




Not signed, but pretty much cleared now I guess.

well sir the problem with IL76 is that it is not as air worthy as the C17 is the problem faced by the air force operating this aircraft all these years prompted them to switch..............
it cannot take off and land in a semi prepared strip and more over it has range which is limited........... but C17 is in its class of its own.......

second the availability, issue if there is a problem with the engine of IL 76, the engine have to be shipped to russia and it took 3-4 month and the crew and handling.................. this is more suited to mobilize the troops to the northeast'n region which has small runway...........
US has promised that they will have the offset for this aircraft where the spares are made available locally and more over india is buying Extra engine i guess 4 or 5 additional engines for this purpose so that's y the cost is 4billion else it would come up to 3.4-3.6 billion....
 
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IAF C-17 price confusion clarified | StratPost

IAF C-17 price confusion clarified


The confusion over the price for the sale of ten C-17 aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF), about which US President Barack Obama made a preliminary announcement, has been clarified.

News reports on Wednesday indicated a difference in the price of USD 4.1 billion quoted by the White House on one hand and the manufacturer Boeing, which cited a figure of USD 5.8 billion, also one which had been conveyed by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in its notification to the US Congress, last April.

A US Government source, who declined to be named for purpose of this report, clarified to StratPost on Wednesday, that the amount of USD 5.8 billion could ‘include as many potential case options as might realistically be considered’, like support equipment and unique engineering requirements.

A statement issued by the US Embassy in New Delhi at the time of the notification also said of this amount, “This represents the highest possible estimate for the sale, and includes all potential services offered,” adding, “The actual cost will be based on Indian Air Force (IAF) requirements and has yet to be negotiated.”

This higher-side estimate was quoted keeping in mind the possibility that the IAF may also choose to purchase training equipment, spare and repair parts, test equipment, ground support equipment, equipment for training for aircrew and maintenance personnel, services like technical assistance, engineering services, logistical and technical support, as well as unique modifications specific to the requirements of the IAF.

“The danger in estimating low during the Congressional Notification (CN) stage is that if the case value lands up as (even) USD 01 higher, the case has to be returned to Congress for additional approvals or the case scope must be adjusted to bring the value down,” explained the source to StratPost.

“USD 4.1 billion more closely represents the case value in its current state and that figure only includes the options India is actually considering,” he clarified, adding further, “Additionally, the US Government waived non-recurring engineering costs, which saved the Government of India a significant amount of money on the aircraft. These costs had been included in the CN value.”

The IAF completed the flight trials of the aircraft last summer. The commercial negotiations remain to be completed.

The April notification by the US DSCA to the US Congress said the IAF had requested a package that included ten Boeing C-17 GLOBEMASTER III aircraft, 45 F117-PW-100 engines (40 installed and 5 spare engines), ten AN/ALE-47 Counter-Measures Dispensing Systems, ten AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, spare and repairs parts, repair and return, warranty, pyrotechnics, flares, other explosives, aircraft ferry and refueling support, crew armor, mission planning system software, communication equipment and support, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, US Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support.
 
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Contract For Six More C-130Js Definite'


c-130-NightWarrior.jpg

An Indian government contract for six more American-built C-130J-30 Super Hercules tactical transport airplanes is "definite" according to an Indian Air Force official on the secretariat of the Air Marshal who oversees procurement. Lockheed-Martin began the effort to get India to exercise options on the original March 2008 contract shortly after it was signed, though the IAF had identified a need for at least 18 such airplanes.

The officer, who asked not to be named, told me, "The view is you cannot achieve very much with six aircraft. There has to be a minimum number for effective squadron service. This has been agreed upon between us and the Government. It is only a question of when they choose to exercise the option. It is an FMS deal, so there will obviously be some diplomatic leverage. As far as we are concerned, we know we are getting the additional airplanes."

I asked the officer if the IAF had expressed an interest in operating more than 12 C-130s. His response: "Let's be very clear -- the 20-ton airlifter type is going to be extremely useful to our air maintenance operations across the board. The C-130s are coming. We will have 12 of them. We will make good use of them. But we will also have the MRTA from early 2017 if all goes according to plan. We cannot ignore that project, since we are investing over $300-million in that. We can certainly operate more than 12 C-130s, but we have to rationalize types."

Either way, it is unlikely that a follow-on contract for six additional C-130Js will be signed before next year. Lockheed-Martin will again be bringing a USAF C-130J to AeroIndia 2011 next February, and is working with the IAF to show off its first C-130J (scheduled to arrive days before the Bangalore show begins) for the first time at AeroIndia.


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: 'Contract For Six More C-130Js Definite'
 
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wow,12 super hercules,10 globe master's and 45 MRTA,India is spending heavily on its airlift capability
 
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Hi sageof6path

A US Government source, who declined to be named for purpose of this report, clarified to StratPost on Wednesday, that the amount of USD 5.8 billion could ‘include as many potential case options as might realistically be considered’, like support equipment and unique engineering requirements.

On the other hand:

The figure of $4.1 million is not supportable,’ Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, told reporters here Tuesday, pointing out that the US Congress had accorded approval for a deal worth $5.8 billion.

Who else than the manufacturer should know what his product will cost?


]well sir the problem with IL76 is that it is not as air worthy as the C17 is the problem faced by the air force operating this aircraft all these years prompted them to switch..............
it cannot take off and land in a semi prepared strip and more over it has range which is limited........... but C17 is in its class of its own.......

second the availability, issue if there is a problem with the engine of IL 76, the engine have to be shipped to russia and it took 3-4 month and the crew and handling.................. this is more suited to mobilize the troops to the northeast'n region which has small runway...........
US has promised that they will have the offset for this aircraft where the spares are made available locally and more over india is buying Extra engine i guess 4 or 5 additional engines for this purpose so that's y the cost is 4billion else it would come up to 3.4-3.6 billion....

As I said, I know that the C17 as a whole has some advantages, but I see only the tank lifting as a real plus, but on the other specs the latest IL 76 versions are not far away from the C17:

Payload: 77t vs 60t
Cruise speed: 830 km/h vs 830-850
Range with full payload: 4482 km vs 4000 km
Take-off run with full payload: 2316 m vs 1600 m
Landing run with full payload: 1060 m vs 990 m

As you can see the 76MF is too close on any of these specs, to justify such a huge cost difference, its payload would be even enough to carry Arjun, but the problem is, that the cabin is not even wide enough for T90s and that's its main disadvantage.
Regarding the engine problems, IAF/MoD are still considering more A50 AWACS aircrafts and IL 78 tankers in important tactical roles, so would they do so if there were technical problems? Also the MRTA co-development, which is heavily based on IL 76 and in the initial plans was said to use even the same engines. Do you think they would do so, if they have to fear technical problems?

Even if we say the IL 76 has too much issues, we could also take the A400M instead of the C17:

Cost: 1 x C17 - $580 millions vs 2 x A400Ms - 2 x $175 millions
Payload: 77t vs 2 x 37t
Cruise speed: 830 km/h vs 780 km/h
Range with full payload: 4482 km vs 4540 km
Take-off run with full payload: 2316 m vs 980 m
Landing run with full payload: 1060 m vs 770 m
MBTs: 1 vs 0
Stryker IFV: 3 vs 2 x 2
Troops: 134 vs 2 x 116
Cargo: 18 x 463L pallets vs 2 x 9 x 463L pallets


IL-76MF Operational Strategic Military Transport Airplane

Boeing: C-17 Globemaster III - C-17 Globemaster III Home

A400M The Versatile Airlifter


Again, when we take out the MBT lifting requirement, there are indeed good and more cost-effective alternatives and that's why I'm asking, how important is this requirement really?

2 x A400Ms can do anything a C17 can do, but would be clearly more cost-effective and even with the better performance. Their maintenance is aimed to be even cheaper than a C130, let alone C17 and it also offers latest western avionics and cockpit designs, short take off and landings on unprepared air strips..., not to forget that they can be modified to the tanker / transport roles too.

Another big point is, that we could be a production partner of the A400M and produce parts for all customers, especially with our knowledge on composite materials, C17s instead makes us just simple buyers of foreign arms again.
 
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i dont know whether we need any super cargo planes like the C5 galaxy but what do you all guys think like how about five C5 galaxies in IAF colors:azn:
 
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