3 police officials martyred in KPK including a DSP by TTP using snipers and thermal night vision sights.

[WarKa DaNG]

20 years of terrorism and we still didnt provide thermals or NVGs for the troops

 

[Path-Finder]

20 years of terrorism and we still didnt provide thermals or NVGs for the troops

Its the police that don't have them. Army has all the NVD and TI's

 

[Sifar zero]

20 years of terrorism and we still didnt provide thermals or NVGs for the troops

They already have thermals.
I have seen Shibli made thermals in use with the Army and FC in ex-FATA.

 

[Signalian]

He fell short from the moment he was a terrorist sympathiser (news flash: he always was)


Lol there are still some people who will say army saazzish, PDM saazish

It's a perfect excuse they've created recently to off-load the faults onto a well-known corrupt area, just to avoid accountability of their personal favourites

The real world out there is very different from the imaginary one here on PDF. Laugh and move on.

 

[Signalian]

20 years of terrorism and we still didnt provide thermals or NVGs for the troops

Soft targets. Analyse the trend. Decades ago, attacks by terrorists started on Army and military installations , then they started on FC, now they are constantly occurring on police.

There are a few factors. Army shifted to COIN tactics within units which weren’t learnt before. FC was upgraded and trained. Police was transformed and trained to form CTD. Now IBOs are conducted by CTD, so police is constantly targeted to deter and demotivate them.

The next hit list could be levies, where as constabulary (frontier and baluch) is another force which is average equipped and trained. Khasadar is a force which needs to be put in thorough action to support CTD.

The terrorised strategy is target killing by attacking Pakistani forces (all cadres) but the long term impact for this need to be analysed. Army and FC were upgraded. CTD was established but can the whole police force be equipped and trained on same lines. Can all the police stations become fire bases and fortresses. Should police be given armoured vehicles for all tasks. Considering that role of police is diverse and involved legal and investigative work more than direct combat, it’s debatable if these steps should be necessarily conducted.

bureaucracy of provinces and federal, has to sit down and discuss this situation. If both conclude that only option is military action once again then this will be put forward to Army and another military ops will be on the table but it shows that forming CTD and upgrading FC didn’t bear results.

There are fools here who will blame army but military command holds no responsibility for a police station under attack. The provincial government or the federal government can instruct Army to Assist, just like SSG ops in Bannu ops but both Provincial and federal governments already hold assets to go on the offensive, without involvement of military at all.

Federal government has FC and other policing forces under its command with FC having a special ops wing to take out militant hideouts at will. Provincial government has special cadres in police force to start its operations, both KPK and Baluchistan.

These are the baseline tier forces who are responsible for this area. Then comes military which can send SF assets or conduct a full operation. In latter case, full blown ops have been conducted already for years and results were good. But military can be sent in again and again, what will happen after military clears the area, like it did ? The civil bureaucracy has to take over the region. With the political turmoils, there is a growing tussle between KPK provincial government and the federal Government. That needs to be sorted out first between PTI and PMLN as well as other political parties.

It boils down to:

1. Provincial and Federal bureaucracy can start an operations on their own since military has provided their forces training and equipment. This was the long term plan, since military is focussed on Indian thread primarily.

2. Military and bureaucracy, both can start another round of operations in affected areas however all the parties need to sit on the table.

3. The civil setup has to make itself stronger to hold and maintain the area after the military ops concludes. This is the most important factor and has failed after successful military operations.

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Soft targets. Analyse the trend. Decades ago, attacks by terrorists started on Army and military installations , then they started on FC, now they are constantly occurring on police.

There are a few factors. Army shifted to COIN tactics within units which weren’t learnt before. FC was upgraded and trained. Police was transformed and trained to form CTD. Now IBOs are conducted by CTD, so police is constantly targeted to deter and demotivate them.

The next hit list could be levies, where as constabulary (frontier and baluch) is another force which is average equipped and trained. Khasadar is a force which needs to be put in thorough action to support CTD.

The terrorised strategy is target killing by attacking Pakistani forces (all cadres) but the long term impact for this need to be analysed. Army and FC were upgraded. CTD was established but can the whole police force be equipped and trained on same lines. Can all the police stations become fire bases and fortresses. Should police be given armoured vehicles for all tasks. Considering that role of police is diverse and involved legal and investigative work more than direct combat, it’s debatable if these steps should be necessarily conducted.

bureaucracy of provinces and federal, has to sit down and discuss this situation. If both conclude that only option is military action once again then this will be put forward to Army and another military ops will be on the table but it shows that forming CTD and upgrading FC didn’t bear results.

There are fools here who will blame army but military command holds no responsibility for a police station under attack. The provincial government or the federal government can instruct Army to Assist, just like SSG ops in Bannu ops but both Provincial and federal governments already hold assets to go on the offensive, without involvement of military at all.

Federal government has FC and other policing forces under its command with FC having a special ops wing to take out militant hideouts at will. Provincial government has special cadres in police force to start its operations, both KPK and Baluchistan.

These are the baseline tier forces who are responsible for this area. Then comes military which can send SF assets or conduct a full operation. In latter case, full blown ops have been conducted already for years and results were good. But military can be sent in again and again, what will happen after military clears the area, like it did ? The civil bureaucracy has to take over the region. With the political turmoils, there is a growing tussle between KPK provincial government and the federal Government. That needs to be sorted out first between PTI and PMLN as well as other political parties.

It boils down to:

1. Provincial and Federal bureaucracy can start an operations on their own since military has provided their forces training and equipment. This was the long term plan, since military is focussed on Indian thread primarily.

2. Military and bureaucracy, both can start another round of operations in affected areas however all the parties need to sit on the table.

3. The civil setup has to make itself stronger to hold and maintain the area after the military ops concludes. This is the most important factor and has failed after successful military operations.

Thank you Sir for the indepth analysis, miss the time when PDF was all about deep analysis and study

 

[GodToons]

For some they are either Freedom fighters or Mujahids, the rest call them terrorists. Time to make a standard definition and the state should be allowed to take them down.
Rest your terrorist my freedom fighters will not take you anywhere.

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistan needs a list of American weapon/ammo storage areas and to either buy them back, capture them, or destroy them.

The former Afghan Army, who has been absorbed by the Taliban, had a larger budget than the Pakistan Army. That means the TTP potentially has a larger or near equal budget than the Pakistan Army at least in FATA/KP.

Also if i'm not mistaken, the former Afghan Republic had a higher currency value than Pakistan during NATO occupation.

 

[Signalian]

Thank you Sir for the indepth analysis, miss the time when PDF was all about deep analysis and study

If numbers of security personnel are added up in the region, they look pretty good to formulate a plan and drive the militants out of the area. The issue is that politics, bureaucracy and military need to align themselves on a single platform which isn't happening at the moment. There is friction from PTI in KPK, from Federal Govt (MOI) in Islamabad and Military command thinks that it had cleared the area and handed it over to civil authorities with presence of some troops along with building a wall on the border.

Provincial security personnel strength is 136,000 including all branches of Police including SCU,RRF and reserve.
Federal security personnel strength is 40,000 FC, 40,000 Khasadar, 12,000 Levies and 26,000 Frontier Constabulary.
Military troops strength is 50,000 troops, primarily IX Corps and then presence in Nowshera, Mardan, swat etc.

That is a combined strength of ~304,000 troops with 118,000 troops under Federal Govt.

Although numbers are somewhat comparable for Provincial and Federal security forces, but Provincial police has other duties than providing security and conducting operations so it has two dedicated units to combat terrorism and militancy which are SCU and RRF and the policemen in these forces are very less in number when compared with the overall KPK police force. KPK Police numbers were beefed up from 90,000 to 100,000+ by amalgamating 28,000 troops from Levies and Khasadars.

In relation, the Federal security forces have active FC troops along with Frontier Constabulary which is called upon when KPK Police asks for assistance of numbers. Khasadar jointly patrol border with FC where as Levies conduct police tasks in FATA region.

CTD is another force which is primarily drawn from KPK police but has Federal security troops also. CTD is another department which comes under federal Government (MOI) and then is a allotted in provinces to conduct Ops. Other small forces are ANF and Railway police.

This shows how the Federal Government (the PM and the political party in power) keeps control of security resources in each province and with so many forces under different names this looks like a recipe for disaster. They had to make CTD since they made NACTA. But then what is the use of Special Ops wings of KPK Police and FC ? Then they send SSG and LCB units from Army to train new departments like CTD and sometimes assign military troops for overseeing operations.

On top of that, there are at least 5 different intelligence agencies in KPK,. One under KPK Govt, 2 under Federal Govt, and 2 under military.

The amount of weaponry sized in Ops Zarb is as follows:
5898 rifles along with 1288422 rounds of ammunition were recovered from different areas of NWA
2193 Sub Machine Guns and 577756 rounds of similar caliber
274 Machine/Light Machine Guns
314 Rocket Launchers and 4901 Rocket Grenades were recovered
104 Anti Aircraft Guns of 12.7mm and 14.5 mm caliber along with 218050 rounds ammunition
4391 Mortars
9135 Mortar bombs
3321 Hand Grenades
4808 Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs)
225000 kilogram of explosives were recovered by security forces.

Pakistan Army also seized 33 IED manufacturing factories, five rocket manufacturing factories, and seven ammunition factories. 186 tunnels/ hideouts/ caves used by terrorists for their underground movement and nine detention centers.
FATA was a country of its own from 2014-2018. An army has that much ammunition, not a militant force. TTP is an Army.

What if I tell you, that Pakistan Army will find the same numbers or more of weapons and ammunition mentioned above if it ever starts an Operation in Baluchistan?

I frankly don't care who blames who in Government. IK blaming military, Shehbaz blaming IK and Military saying it is done with politics. The stats show that KPK province especially FATA has been through hell. The cross border movement has been limited but there are unauthorized passes through authorized gates but the bigger problem is that an Army's worth weaponry is present inside Pakistan in the hands of terrorists cells.

2022 has seen more than one terrorist incident per day in Pakistan with KPK being hit the worst. Imagine that KPK has been cleared more than once in different operations. How many times will the security forces need to clear Baluchistan then ?

These politicians are embroiled in a war of their own. They want elections and they want the seat of power. Nobody is interested in the security situation of Pakistan especially KPK. All day long the media channels are bringing discontented news that such and such is happening behind curtains between powerful players of the country. No one, especially media is bothered that the common man is paying the price. All the ministers and military officials have personal security escorts in men and vehicles. They fight their wars with each other in offices for power.

The security structure for KPK needs to be modified and MOI needs to make one force instead of 4 separate forces that its handling.

 

[Erieye]

If numbers of security personnel are added up in the region, they look pretty good to formulate a plan and drive the militants out of the area. The issue is that politics, bureaucracy and military need to align themselves on a single platform which isn't happening at the moment. There is friction from PTI in KPK, from Federal Govt (MOI) in Islamabad and Military command thinks that it had cleared the area and handed it over to civil authorities with presence of some troops along with building a wall on the border.

Provincial security personnel strength is 136,000 including all branches of Police including SCU,RRF and reserve.
Federal security personnel strength is 40,000 FC, 40,000 Khasadar, 12,000 Levies and 26,000 Frontier Constabulary.
Military troops strength is 50,000 troops, primarily IX Corps and then presence in Nowshera, Mardan, swat etc.

That is a combined strength of ~304,000 troops with 118,000 troops under Federal Govt.

Although numbers are somewhat comparable for Provincial and Federal security forces, but Provincial police has other duties than providing security and conducting operations so it has two dedicated units to combat terrorism and militancy which are SCU and RRF and the policemen in these forces are very less in number when compared with the overall KPK police force. KPK Police numbers were beefed up from 90,000 to 100,000+ by amalgamating 28,000 troops from Levies and Khasadars.

In relation, the Federal security forces have active FC troops along with Frontier Constabulary which is called upon when KPK Police asks for assistance of numbers. Khasadar jointly patrol border with FC where as Levies conduct police tasks in FATA region.

CTD is another force which is primarily drawn from KPK police but has Federal security troops also. CTD is another department which comes under federal Government (MOI) and then is a allotted in provinces to conduct Ops. Other small forces are ANF and Railway police.

This shows how the Federal Government (the PM and the political party in power) keeps control of security resources in each province and with so many forces under different names this looks like a recipe for disaster. They had to make CTD since they made NACTA. But then what is the use of Special Ops wings of KPK Police and FC ? Then they send SSG and LCB units from Army to train new departments like CTD and sometimes assign military troops for overseeing operations.

On top of that, there are at least 5 different intelligence agencies in KPK,. One under KPK Govt, 2 under Federal Govt, and 2 under military.

The amount of weaponry sized in Ops Zarb is as follows:
5898 rifles along with 1288422 rounds of ammunition were recovered from different areas of NWA
2193 Sub Machine Guns and 577756 rounds of similar caliber
274 Machine/Light Machine Guns
314 Rocket Launchers and 4901 Rocket Grenades were recovered
104 Anti Aircraft Guns of 12.7mm and 14.5 mm caliber along with 218050 rounds ammunition
4391 Mortars
9135 Mortar bombs
3321 Hand Grenades
4808 Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs)
225000 kilogram of explosives were recovered by security forces.

Pakistan Army also seized 33 IED manufacturing factories, five rocket manufacturing factories, and seven ammunition factories. 186 tunnels/ hideouts/ caves used by terrorists for their underground movement and nine detention centers.
FATA was a country of its own from 2014-2018. An army has that much ammunition, not a militant force. TTP is an Army.

What if I tell you, that Pakistan Army will find the same numbers or more of weapons and ammunition mentioned above if it ever starts an Operation in Baluchistan?

I frankly don't care who blames who in Government. IK blaming military, Shehbaz blaming IK and Military saying it is done with politics. The stats show that KPK province especially FATA has been through hell. The cross border movement has been limited but there are unauthorized passes through authorized gates but the bigger problem is that an Army's worth weaponry is present inside Pakistan in the hands of terrorists cells.

2022 has seen more than one terrorist incident per day in Pakistan with KPK being hit the worst. Imagine that KPK has been cleared more than once in different operations. How many times will the security forces need to clear Baluchistan then ?

These politicians are embroiled in a war of their own. They want elections and they want the seat of power. Nobody is interested in the security situation of Pakistan especially KPK. All day long the media channels are bringing discontented news that such and such is happening behind curtains between powerful players of the country. No one, especially media is bothered that the common man is paying the price. All the ministers and military officials have personal security escorts in men and vehicles. They fight their wars with each other in offices for power.

The security structure for KPK needs to be modified and MOI needs to make one force instead of 4 separate forces that its handling.

In Balochistan I think there has been minor operations carried out so something is cooking up, but perhaps not operations at the level you imply.

My question is when is when is someone going to finally intervene to implement these required changes? For how long are we going to allow these politicians to mess about in their personal political affairs while the country burns?

The army leadership should take a stand in some form whether that's explictly, or by empowering a civillian arm. Why are we watching and allowing this to happen? It is frustrating to see no one taking the lead here and pushing the selfish people aside.

There seems to be confusion in the air and loss of direction! This political instability mess has lowered everyone's morale, we need to stabilise the nation politically, increase the morale, implement nation-wide reforms especially econocim reforms, and crack down on insurgencies with a clear-cut plan including post ops.

 

[Mrc]

To me strategy of targeting police (soft target) is a very valid one and seems like well thought off plan with a chain of command in execution,

Who is coming up with this sophisticated plans? Foreign help??

 

[SaadH]

you will start seeing that NATO equipment soon in TTP videos.
TTP are cousins of Afghan TALIBAN, they will get full support.

And PA is the step cousin of NATO but won't get the same support

 

[Signalian]

My question is when is when is someone going to finally intervene to implement these required changes?

I mentioned that provincial, federal and military leadership needs to be on the same page. The leaders and public is running after elections, not after the issue of insurgency. You can thank media for that. This is why I mention 5th gen warfare, because if you study 5th generation warfare you will see how media is used against interests of Pakistan.

For how long are we going to allow these politicians to mess about in their personal political affairs while the country burns?

Imran Khan Vs Shehbaz or kin of Zardari is what Pakistanis have to face, otherwise its the religious political powers that want to come in power.

The army leadership should take a stand in some form whether that's explictly, or by empowering a civillian arm. Why are we watching and allowing this to happen? It is frustrating to see no one taking the lead here and pushing the selfish people aside.

Army is basically a force standing to counter Indian threat. It wasn't designed for COIN war to start with, yet it proved its mettle in COIN war and raised new formations like LCBs and LIDs poised towards security and ops related to COIN war.

The plan then on was to upgrade, up arm and train FC as well as other LEAs to counter terrorism while Army once again concentrates on India. This plan is seemingly failing unless Police is upgraded along with other LEAs. Army doesn't want to involve itself in insurgency anymore on a large scale. FC, Rangers, CTD have been trained for that purpose. India wants PA to get bogged down in Baluchistan.

There seems to be confusion in the air and loss of direction! This political instability mess has lowered everyone's morale, we need to stabilise the nation politically, increase the morale, implement nation-wide reforms especially econocim reforms, and crack down on insurgencies with a clear-cut plan including post ops.

The political instability will remain for sometime even though its crashing the stock market too, this is because Shehbaz is trying to save his seat, Imran is trying to get back his seat, Bilawal through Zardari is waiting for an opportunity window to pounce on both while Military is seemingly sitting aside and watching the show.

This was foreseeable by a member, @Mangus Ortus Novem , who started a thread on hybrid war in Pakistan (pinned on Strategic section). He was considered poetic in his writing manner and too zealous in his thinking process and nobody really cared about his points.

Pakistan has always been standing on the verge of collapse but yes somehow, some game plan works momentarily which brings it back on course whether its mentored by military or civilian leadership. But there is no long term plan since the momentary short term plans usually bring disasters in long term but avoid the collapse at that instance.

So a long term strategy is required which means Pakistan needs two top brains to work together. One is PM and other is COAS. They need to work together on all dynamics related to prosperity of public, not just Pakistan.

 

[TheSolution]

This is why I mention 5th gen warfare, because if you study 5th generation warfare you will see how media is used against interests of Pakistan.

These ethnic councils is where young people are brainwashed and groomed initially by installing the baseline idea of separatism, by claiming they are oppressed by the state in various ways (genocide, stealing resources, racism). This then translates into the idea of armed struggles.

Political instability gives their narrative more legitimacy.

@Erieye

 

[TheSolution]

Army is basically a force standing to counter Indian threat. It wasn't designed for COIN war to start with, yet it proved its mettle in COIN war and raised new formations like LCBs and LIDs poised towards security and ops related to COIN war.

The plan then on was to upgrade, up arm and train FC as well as other LEAs to counter terrorism while Army once again concentrates on India. This plan is seemingly failing unless Police is upgraded along with other LEAs. Army doesn't want to involve itself in insurgency anymore on a large scale. FC, Rangers, CTD have been trained for that purpose. India wants PA to get bogged down in Baluchistan.

This threat is also from India, but it is non-kinetic and non-conventional by nature.

The army doesn't have to directly get involved, but rather it should take the leadership initiative to set-up institutions and think tanks to counter this threat. Some of which as you've explained they've done.

But the real way to combat insurgency shouldn't be to wait till terrorists are created and then kill them. It should be neutralising all avenues where the threat can be formed.

My opinion is nation and identity building efforts are not strong enough. And the ability to monitor and tackle hostile elements is weak. Nip the problems at the roots before they arise.

A National Identity

Cultural assimilation is the key to Pakistan’s long-term survivability & stability. Pakistan needs to focus on developing & maturing a strong cohesive national identity based on the inheritance of South Asian Islamic history, and also emphasising on our indigenous civilisations and historical figures like Raja Porus, Adina Beg, etc, to integrate the country as one, under a single umbrella over time. Countries with strong centralised national identities are the most stable and difficult to exploit.

It is important to create a very nationalistic population that strongly pursues its national interests but one that can also value their religious beliefs at the same time, as they are intertwined. Both can co-exist together and Iran's society is the prime example of this. This will also bring more overall stability, while subduing separatist and Islamic insurgencies both. Combating them easily.

A confident and strong identity fosters motivation in the population which incites a drive to want to see their nation succeed. If you pair this confidence with a system that prioritises meritocracy - you
will be able to extract the very best out of your population.

This is what Allama Iqbal and M. A. Jinnah envisioned but our leaders became confused along the way due to outside influence & pressure, as well as internal extreme liberals who fail to understand
the core identity and existence of Pakistan which is not secular by nature.

Pakistan's goal should be to strive to create a modern society which pursues scientific & technological advancements but still retains its Islamic + cultural values, a beacon of indigenous and South Asian Islamic culture & history. We must be strongly united with a single national narrative and work aggressively towards our national interests.