26/11 and the role of media

[EjazR]

Isn't AQ so threatening, eh? especially with his views?

Why is it so hard to listen to the "other" side? Don't have the courage to accept a diff pov?

let alone ever heard a thing called "difference of opinion"? I bet not..

Just like that bald guy in the video was accusing AQ of being too "young" to understand things, like if age was a factor in intelligence, AQ refuted him later and squat him like a fly...what a hypocritical arrogant bigot he was. and your views are no diff than the bald guy...(so much for hypocrisy, why are you even on this board if you can't stand Pakistani POV?, is that what Islam teaches you?)



i mean the whole indian team including the host attacked AQ one by one yet still he managed to shut them up. Since you dont have the courage to listen to Pakistani voices and POVs, don't invite them, heck yea it helps you keep your public ignorant and fool about realities across the border

This is your khusfahmi if you think AQ is threatening. He is actually a net negative for Pakistan on the world stage and possibly in Pakistan as well but I don't expect you to see that.

I infact strongly support Pakistani journos to come on Indian media TV to present their point of view and vice versa. I even mentioned some prominent journalists in this regard. I don't think if you noticed, but no one interrepted him while he spoke for the 1-2 minutes he was given but he consistently interrepted when other people were speaking, this is counterproductive and I don't expect someone like AQ who is used to only listen to Zaid Hamid's monologues to do any different.

The rest of the media expects people to interact, not listen to monologues on conspiracy theories.

 

[vsdoc]

I think our Jana would have represented her country better than that boorish pup with the stylised twang.

I will write to Arnob at Times Now to invite her over next time.

Better still, guys like Fatman, Mastan, AM, Taimi, Bezerk, Asim .... heck, even my friend Gracie! You guys would have represented your country on our National TV well, and most importantly, with dignity.

Believe me guys, being as I have been on this forum for some months now, interacting daily with knowledgeable, open minded, educated, balanced, articulate, and above all, humane Pakistanis, it made me cringe in embarrassment to hear the whiny diatribe of the kid.

No wonder each and every panelist was openly smirking and laughing at him towards the end, including Arnob who is extremely balanced and currently the best we have.

Is he seriously the best you guys can come up with?!!!!!!!!

Pakistan needs a serious international PR makeover, and for that you guys seriously need to pick the right men and women for the job.

Or you will continue to be laughed at derisively by the rest of the world ..... am sorry to say.

Cheers, Doc

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan needs a serious international PR makeover, and for that you guys seriously need to pick the right men and women for the job.

Though i agree with your overall point however as far as show goes i believe its the host who invite these guests...

Or you will continue to be laughed at derisively by the rest of the world ..... am sorry to say.

As said in my earlier post its not just him or couple of folks who believe in what he said... There is a significant amount of Pakistani nationals who believe in all that...So laugh or no laugh i think it is imperative to bring such people on shows and share facts with them...Though your options gets limited when someone refuse to indulge in a debate in a civilized manner(like he did)....Anyhow i strongly feel we should continue to engage with such people though would like to complement the show with more audience from Pakistan who have somewhat balanced views...

 

[vsdoc]

Though i agree with your overall point however as far as show goes i believe its the host who invite these guests...

I agree ..... and they well knew that this guy was gonna make a fool of himself and let down his country. All in the interests of TRPs I guess .....

As said in my earlier post its not just him or couple of folks who believe in what he said... There is a significant amount of Pakistani nationals who believe in all that...So laugh or no laugh i think it is imperative to bring such people on shows and share facts with them...Though your options gets limited when someone refuse to indulge in a debate in a civilized manner(like he did)....Anyhow i strongly feel we should continue to engage with such people though would like to complement the show with more audience from Pakistan who have somewhat balanced views...

I agree again. And the scarily surprising part is that some of these guys represent the top 10% of liberal educated Pakistani society. I don't know whether some of them have truly been brought up to believe such crap about us or do they just do it to bait us and stick to the national line to safeguard their honor in front of the "Enemy No.1" .... as he referred to us.

My point is why such a puppy when you have many more seasoned Pakistanis to pick from ..... who would be able to engage the senior panelists in a much more equal (and less juvenilely offensive punkish) manner?

Cheers, Doc

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

My indian colleagues are using very harsh words against AQ---I saw the interview---I saw that he was being patronized by this older indian analyst---.

My indian colleagues need to understand something---I wrote in oneof my other posts---

you people want to be right about your assessment of pakistan all the time---you also want us to be right about your assessment of pakistan all the time.

You indians want us to believe that we pakistanis are always wrong about our assessment of india all the time---you inidans also want us to believe that we are also wrong in believing that indian assessment of our assessment is also wrong.

You have developed this ability to be right all the time every time---and any pakistani who tends to disagree---is wrong all the time.

Please get the head out of the sand---we have serious issues---JAW JAW IS BETTER THAN WAR churchill----PIN PRICKS START WARS napolean.

 

[vsdoc]

Hi,

My indian colleagues are using very harsh words against AQ---I saw the interview---I saw that he was being patronized by this older indian analyst---.

My indian colleagues need to understand something---I wrote in oneof my other posts---

you people want to be right about your assessment of pakistan all the time---you also want us to be right about your assessment of pakistan all the time.

You indians want us to believe that we pakistanis are always wrong about our assessment of india all the time---you inidans also want us to believe that we are also wrong in believing that indian assessment of our assessment is also wrong.

You have developed this ability to be right all the time every time---and any pakistani who tends to disagree---is wrong all the time.

Please get the head out of the sand---we have serious issues---JAW JAW IS BETTER THAN WAR churchill----PIN PRICKS START WARS napolean.

Must admit i had to re-read each line a couple of times to bend my mind around each scenario.

The issue is not about right and wrong Mastan ..... the issue is making a fool of yourself in front of a huge TV audience of your rival country, while doin a piss poor job of representing yours.

On the same show, I have heard other far more mature articulate and mannered Pakistani panelists.

This kid would have got booted out of a high school debate ..... forget engaging with a former High Commisioner (the bald guy - Mr. Parthasarthy) and a hawkish Defense Analyst (Mahroof Raza ..... who regularly makes a meal of a Pakistani ex Maj Gen).

If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to conduct and carry yourself amongst seniors first ...... the first thing all rookies learn ..... something this kal ka chhokra has painfully not.

Cheers, Doc

 

[deckingraj]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I second him...The issue is not that he was debating against Indian POV..obviously we all know that he was there to represent pakistan POV which may or may not be in line with ours...The issue is the manner in which he debated....Also if you have time go through post no 26...One got to be informed when going for debates on an international TV show watched by millions of people otherwise you loose your credibility and end up making a fool of yourself...

My point is why such a puppy when you have many more seasoned Pakistanis to pick from ..... who would be able to engage the senior panelists in a much more equal (and less juvenilely offensive punkish) manner?

VSdoc...that would make sense if there are few people who support his views...but seems like(also debating with some pakistani friends on this forum) the otherway...Unfortunate but true...with that in mind it make sense to invite such people and proove them wrong by showing proofs...However as said before it becomes really difficult when someone refuses to debate in a civilized manner....

I hope i made my point clear...

 

[MastanKhan]

Must admit i had to re-read each line a couple of times to bend my mind around each scenario.


Vsdoc,

I had to do the same thing when I was writing it----

 

[Developereo]

Iheck, even my friend Gracie!

You are still smarting after three months?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-8.html#post463726

Say good night, Gracie.

The issue is the manner in which he debated....

Please watch the debate carefully. AQ started out reasonably well. It was only after the guy on the right resorted to personal attacks by calling him a 'youngster' that AQ got agitated.

Personal attacks is the usual tactic of people who can't debate and refute someone's actual points. Certain posters in this thread have also resorted to that pathetic fallback by calling AQ a 'kid'.

The Indians offered zero debating points and relied instead on petty personal insults about people's age, or yawn-inducing non-sequiturs to stifle debate. For example, the moderator prattled on moronically about "out of respect for the 174 people butchered by 10 Pakistanis, I will not listen to you".

If this is the standard of debate on Indian TV, it would explain the myopia and self-delusion so prevalent amongst some Indians on this forum.

I will grant you that AQ got a little agitated and kept interrupting the other guys, but given that it was 3 against 1 and the other guys clearly had no debating points, relying rather on personal insults and prepackaged sound bites, this wasn't intended to be much of a debate to begin with. It was clearly a setup by a jingoistic bunch of rating chasers to blather on against Pakistan.

However as said before it becomes really difficult when someone refuses to debate in a civilized manner....

The uncivil tone was set by the guy on the right by launching into personal attacks and smirking when he could come up with no rebuttals.

 

[deckingraj]

@ developereo

My friend i have watched the video carefully and then commented about it....The issue is that we did not watch the whole video(i mean remaining parts) - atleast i did not - so can only comment as per this particular video shared by fellow member.....Anyways let me share my thoughts...

Please watch the debate carefully. AQ started out reasonably well. It was only after the guy on the right resorted to personal attacks by calling him a 'youngster' that AQ got agitated.

Yes the guy called him a youngster...Do you know who called him youngster(former High Commisioner Mr. Parthasarthy )??? Anyways lets say for the sake of argument he did say something AQ did not like but how does it gave him right to loose manners and do not let anyone say what they want to say...As you have seen the video how many times he was asked to stop interrupting??? I am sure even on this forum we show more maturity than what AQ did...After all that was not a school debate between Kids....

Personal attacks is the usual tactic of people who can't debate and refute someone's actual points. Certain posters in this thread have also resorted to that pathetic fallback by calling AQ a 'kid'.

Well if you look from a holistic picture there is a seasoned former High commisioner who called him a kid...Rest assured he don't need any tactics to refute points of AQ when he is claiming that Samjhauta express was done by hindu extermists(right in the end)...Now Mr Parthasarthy called him a kid because he had no answers to AQ or got disgusted by his comments no one need a brainer to understand...Having said it i repeat again - Even if AQ got agitated by so called personal attacks one cannot forget his own manners especially when the opposite person is a senior and as informed as Mr. Parthasarthy is...He could have waited for his turn and then responded...the way he was allowed to speak un-interupted...Make sense???

The Indians offered zero debating points and relied instead on petty personal insults about people's age, or yawn-inducing non-sequiturs to stifle debate. For example, the moderator prattled on moronically about "out of respect for the 174 people butchered by 10 Pakistanis, I will not listen to you"

If this is the standard of debate on Indian TV, it would explain the myopia and self-delusion so prevalent amongst some Indians on this forum..

Again you are missing the theme of the program...AQ was digressing from the point of discussion...if you look at the title of the program it was dedicated to people who lost lives in Mumbai last year and when AQ got bezerk the host used those words....Moreover he(AQ) never let anyone make any point...and thats what we all are condemning...which later you are addressing as smirks but no rebuttals....

I will grant you that AQ got a little agitated and kept interrupting the other guys, but given that it was 3 against 1 and the other guys clearly had no debating points, relying rather on personal insults and prepackaged sound bites, this wasn't intended to be much of a debate to begin with. It was clearly a setup by a jingoistic bunch of rating chasers to blather on against Pakistan.

That's is your interpretation that they did not have any debating points...I can debate with you on all those points...Are you saying that our former High Commisioner and Defence Analyst have no debating points???...

The uncivil tone was set by the guy on the right by launching into personal attacks and smirking when he could come up with no rebuttals

I have explained that above....Though whatever Mr. Parthasarthy could say he has taken lot of names(mostly Pakistani) who gave a balanced opinion...In other words informed people say more with less words..I hope you get what i am saying...If not I would suggest you to watch out the video again...

 

[FireFighter]

i think u must pay attention to ur post ....we indians have a point of view..may be its rite and may be its wrong...bt atleast we have the decency to listen to other party's points..we dont start calling our opponents "bigots "and stuff..may be tats what u r...

and calling us ignorant will not change the truth..u ppl believe that evety thing is a conspiracy against pakistan made by the three"evils"
CIA/MOSSAD/RAW...or hindu+christian+zionist conspiracy..

When you invite someone on your national channels, whether enemy or friend, he is your guest, treat him like a guest. if you cant treat him like a guest than have the decency not to invite him. this goes basic human ethics. both the Indian host and that ganju are bigots because they treated the guest with such hostile and childish remarks, belittling his opinions and making personal attacks to counter him.


CIA has both presence in Pakistan, India and Afghanistan. Mossad is the offspring of CIA, they're very well connected. and Raw has been schemeing against Pak since its inception. How can you deny any of these? are these all conspiracies? get your head outta the sand

This is your khusfahmi if you think AQ is threatening. He is actually a net negative for Pakistan on the world stage and possibly in Pakistan as well but I don't expect you to see that.

Okay, since you cant refute AQ point by point, you're also resorting to personal attacks and belitting his personality.

Since when did the Indians started thinking whats a net positive or a negative for Pakistan?

I infact strongly support Pakistani journos to come on Indian media TV to present their point of view and vice versa. I even mentioned some prominent journalists in this regard. I don't think if you noticed, but no one interrepted him while he spoke for the 1-2 minutes he was given but he consistently interrepted when other people were speaking, this is counterproductive and I don't expect someone like AQ who is used to only listen to Zaid Hamid's monologues to do any different.

The rest of the media expects people to interact, not listen to monologues on conspiracy theories.

Now you're a blatantly lying. Wasn't it you just a few posts ago said that why Indian Media invites people like AQ?

So much hypocrisy is just ...unbelievable.

I do agree with that, however, since you cant muster up the courage to hear different opinions and points of view across the border, why bother inviting other people? Just keep your mental faculties shut and keeping thinking to the tunes of your media and bollywood.

I think our Jana would have represented her country better than that boorish pup with the stylised twang.

I will write to Arnob at Times Now to invite her over next time.

Cheers, Doc

I don't think you amongst the educated Indians around are learning a lessons out of this discussion. You've just done the same thing as that ganju guy did in the video. And it's really sad.

Who should the Indians channels invite? ONLY People that they would agree with? No fun in that.

 

[vsdoc]

When you invite someone on your national channels, whether enemy or friend, he is your guest, treat him like a guest.

We know how to treat our guests. India has a 5000 year old history of mehman nawazi ..... your ancestors would confirm that truth ..... as would mine.

That said, a guest should not cross the lines of decorum. I do not expect my guest to come into my home and start crapping on the living room rug.

So before giving us lessons on mehman nawaazi, it would be better if you give your own some urgently needed lessons in tameez first.

I don't think you amongst the educated Indians around are learning a lessons out of this discussion. You've just done the same thing as that ganju guy did in the video. And it's really sad.

Who should the Indians channels invite? ONLY People that they would agree with? No fun in that.

Well, my education or the lack thereof does not preclude me from calling a spade a spade.

The pup came across as a brainwashed bigot with no manners and an overinflated sense of self-importance stung by being called out by people old enough to have spawned him biologically.

Please do not insinuate that our channels do not invite a cross section of your intellectuals, journalists, ex-defense personnel, and various analysts and ex-govt. people.

Just the day before there was a senior journalist and a dignified looking silver haired old man ..... both Pakistanis ..... the silver haired buzurg was obviously an ever-green hawk ..... but the point is, they knew how to debate and get their point across ..... to 2 very articulate and sharp active Indian politicians (Jaitley and Manu Singhvi).

Then there is an ex-ISI head who does make a fool of himself too ..... but not by interrupting what someone else is saying ..... but by what he says himself! LOL

It takes all kinds .....

I would still like to see some of the guys here coming over.

And to Gracie ..... Arnob did not shut the pup up because of his lack of respect to the memory of the Indians butchered by Pakistanis on Indian soil ..... on Indian TV ..... but because he tried to bring in the Hindu-Muslim angle and degenrate the debate into a communal tu tu main main ..... as is the wont of most if not all Pakistanis ..... and is something that will not be tolerated by any Indian ..... least of all on his own turf.

Deal with it.

Or not.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Developereo]

Yes the guy called him a youngster...Do you know who called him youngster(former High Commisioner Mr. Parthasarthy )???

With all due respect, I neither know nor care who that guy is. He may be well respected in India but that does not give him the right to insult fellow guests or belittle their opinions.

Can you imagine the outrage if AQ had dismissed his opinions cavalierly as the 'disoriented ramblings of a senile old man'? The host would have jumped all over him. The fact that the host did not reprimand the Indian guy for personal attacks on AQ says a lot about the host's lack of professionalism and only confirms my impression that the show was a ratings setup. They knew AQ's strong opinions on the subject. If they wanted a milquetoast, they could have invited any number of sycophantic sellouts in the Pakistani media.

Anyways lets say for the sake of argument he did say something AQ did not like but how does it gave him right to loose manners and do not let anyone say what they want to say...As you have seen the video how many times he was asked to stop interrupting???

I did concede that point, but also pointed out the extenuating circumstances under which AQ was operating.

Rest assured he don't need any tactics to refute points of AQ when he is claiming that Samjhauta express was done by hindu extermists(right in the end)

He launched his personal attack right at the beginning, before Samjhota was mentioned.

...Now Mr Parthasarthy called him a kid because he had no answers to AQ or got disgusted by his comments no one need a brainer to understand...

Once again, he may be well respected in India but, if this is how he behaves towards other guests with differing opinions, he belongs on Jerry Springer or Fox News. Come to think of it, given the host's unprofessionalism and blatant ratings grab, combined with the less-than-objective captions during the debate, the show itself is clearly aimed at a jingoistic audience.

AQ was digressing from the point of discussion...

So was every one, including the host. He even gloated about Pakistan suffering for 20 years of harboring these elements.

Are you saying that our former High Commisioner and Defence Analyst have no debating points???...

From this clip, it certainly appears they are incapably of handling differing opinions and resort to personal attacks.

Though whatever Mr. Parthasarthy could say he has taken lot of names(mostly Pakistani) who gave a balanced opinion...In other words informed people say more with less words..I hope you get what i am saying...

Exactly! They want sycophantic sellouts who will malign Pakistan's government and army to pamper their Indian audience's ago.

 

[deckingraj]

With all due respect, I neither know nor care who that guy is. He may be well respected in India but that does not give him the right to insult fellow guests or belittle their opinions.

You are right...No matter how respectful you are one has no right to insult anyone...However it can be way you take it...Some elderly calling me a kid i might not take it offensive but that doesn't mean others won't...However my point is if someone insulted you does that mean you don't let anyone speak in a debate?? Let's try and replay - He was given a fair chance to say what he wanted to say..and then he was insulted...Now at this he interrupted Mr. Parthasarthy and in fact made a very valid point - "Refute my comments not my age"...So far so good...Don't you think thereafter he just went on and on...Everyone else were left just smirking because whenever they wanted to say something he was interrupting....

This attitude kind of proved what Mr. Parthasarthy said - A KID...Don't you think so???

Can you imagine the outrage if AQ had dismissed his opinions cavalierly as the 'disoriented ramblings of a senile old man'? The host would have jumped all over him.

Buddy that's exactly what he did(not in words than definitely in action)...In fact if you see when he went on and on Mr. Parthasarthy specifically said i did not interrupted you...Don't interrupt me..Learn some Manners...before finally giving up....

The fact that the host did not reprimand the Indian guy for personal attacks on AQ says a lot about the host's lack of professionalism and only confirms my impression that the show was a ratings setup.

If you see he(AQ) did not gave any chance to anyone...What are you expecting from the Host?? How can he stop Mr. Parthsarthy from saying what he want to say??? The way he did not say anything against AQ while he was going bezerk the same way he did not say anything against Mr. Parthasarthy....I can understand him being unprofessional had he used different tactics against both these gentleman's...

They knew AQ's strong opinions on the subject. If they wanted a milquetoast, they could have invited any number of sycophantic sellouts in the Pakistani media.

And if you see no-one interrupted to what he said...Now let me turn your question to you...AQ also knew about the strong opposition that he will face...Now as far as sycopantic sellouts is concerned weather he is taking you people for a ride or others only time will tell...As far as proofs/international community/ GOI/ GOP is concerned they are not in tandem with his ideas...

He launched his personal attack right at the beginning, before Samjhota was mentioned.

The only reason i bring in Samjhota is to say how ill-informed AQ is...I am not saying Mr. Parthasarthy said him kid because he linked Samjhota express to Hindu Extremists...Again we are missing one key link here...we missed the previous parts of the show...That's where i am guessing that may be Mr. Parthasarthy was disgusted by AQ remarks(ill-informed or anything) and thus called him a kid...Mr Parthasarthy is well respected person and person of his stature don't say something to save his ***...He counter people with facts which he did for whatever time he was allowed to speak uninterrupted....

Once again, he may be well respected in India but, if this is how he behaves towards other guests with differing opinions, he belongs on Jerry Springer or Fox News. Come to think of it, given the host's unprofessionalism and blatant ratings grab, combined with the less-than-objective captions during the debate, the show itself is clearly aimed at a jingoistic audience.

Most of the part I have responded above...Trust me especially the english media is not for jingoistic audience..There may be odd instance(like any other media in the world) but overall they do a good job...As far as this particular show is concerned its is very much respected here in India...

So was every one, including the host. He even gloated about Pakistan suffering for 20 years of harboring these elements.

May be you misspelled or i get it wrong...I think host said India suffering from 20 years of terrorism harbored by Pak....Now you and i can argue about if it is digression or no other way to talk to AQ after losing control...However since i have lot of respect for you...i will take your words on it...

From this clip, it certainly appears they are incapably of handling differing opinions and resort to personal attacks.

No buddy here i disagree...If you see he did take some names which are mostly Pakistani sources who have given balanced view...He did pointed those however he never was allowed to make his comments....That's the only issue i have with AQ and this clip...

Exactly! They want sycophantic sellouts who will malign Pakistan's government and army to pamper their Indian audience's ago.

Bro..those are well respected people in Pakistan..Don't just belittle them by calling them sellouts...I have seen a talk show of AQ where the guest is Hamid Zaid...where they are claiming that Mumbai carnage was done by India(RAW) to malign Pakistan and Pakistani govt accepted non-state actors role under US pressure...In other words Pakistani Govt...Your courts(who recently indicted 6 people in the said carnage) all are US puppets...

Now after watching it(there is a separate thread on this forum) i would say AQ is a sell out...and his views are to for domestic consumption who strongly believes in Jingoism...Having said it i strongly believe that such people should be invited to talk shows not only in India but in Pak as well where proofs should be shown...unfortunately that did not happen in this case....

 

[Developereo]

Some elderly calling me a kid i might not take it offensive but that doesn't mean others won't

The attitude and demeanour of Mr. P was very condescending and insulting. But I already conceded your point that AQ shouldn't have reacted the way he did either.

Now let me turn your question to you...AQ also knew about the strong opposition that he will face...

That is where I would agree that he needs more experience in hostile situations. He should not lose his cool.

As far as proofs/international community/ GOI/ GOP is concerned they are not in tandem with his ideas...

He asserted several times that Interpol has not accepted the Indian proofs. I don't know the details, but I wanted the Indians to respond to that allegation instead smirking. The few times AQ did pause, the Indians did not take the opportunity to refute the Interpol assertion.

i am guessing that may be Mr. Parthasarthy was disgusted by AQ remarks

Actually I can guess that this was not the first personal attack on AQ. He said "don't make fun of my accent or my age" which suggests that they had launched other personal insults about his accent before the clip. All in all, it sounds like the Indians were very rude to their guest, and he blew his top.

Bro..those are well respected people in Pakistan..Don't just belittle them by calling them sellouts...

I don't have much respect for people who attack the Pakistani army while they are in the middle of fighting the TTP. Sellout or respected, I guess it's a matter of perspective.

In other words Pakistani Govt...Your courts(who recently indicted 6 people in the said carnage) all are US puppets...

Well, you have to understand something about Pakistan. Almost all of our civilian rulers have been corrupt and self-serving, so the people don't have much faith or respect for civilian politicians. We know that whoever comes to power will be looking to fill his own pockets and settle political scores with his enemies. The country itself will be a sideshow at best.

The army rulers, on the other hand, may be incompetent or misguided, but no one would ever question their loyalty to Pakistan. So when someone casts doubt upon the loyalty of a civilian administration, it rings true to many Pakistani ears. Sad but true reflection of Pakistan's government over the years.

Anyway, we have probably beaten this horse to death. Thanks for the good discussion.