25th Anniversary of Tiananmen Square

[MM_Haider]

Everyone is pro democracy, we just don't agree that US model is the only model for democracy.

The ultimate purpose of any political system is making the people's live better. The the pre-condition of making the people's live better is making the country stronger. Democracy is good because it allows a country to utilize its population and talent better than feudalism or theocracy.

Now, one of the most common mistake is treating communism and democracy as antonyms. They are not. Democracy is a political system where all citizens participate equally. Its antonyms would be feudalism , theocracy or monarchy, where only certain groups or caste participate in the government. Communism is sub-branch of socialism, which is an economic system where stresses the importance of government regulation. Its antonyms would be capitalism where stresses freedom from government regulation.

Elections are about selection process of government officials. The fact is, both US and China both uses representative election. The only difference is that in US, the local election is on selecting one of the two parties where the candidate of the party is determined beforehand in a closed circle election. In China, the local election determines second level representatives and these representatives vote farther for candidates. This is in contrast to Russia and Iran's system, where the local vote goes directly to the candidate.

The reason we think US' definition of democratic nation is silly is because China fit the definition that democracy is a system where all citizens participate equally in government. The fact is, the very first line of China's constitution identifies China as a democratic nation lead by the people. Just because we don't use the exact same selection process as US by no means make us non-democratic. It is even funnier when US accuse Putin being undemocratic when it is no secret that US election is determined by powerful business elites.

Democracy gives freedom of expression, the ownership of assets, no censorship, and more over multi party based system... what kind of democracy is this where there these essential ingredients are missing?

 

[Nan Yang]

in addition to that. Some of the same PDF bellicose keyboard warriors who live very comfortably in the USA (and other western countries) are usually some of the first ones who will scream for bloodlust and war. All while sitting back on their very comfy couches in far away lands.

People immigrate due to economic reasons. There are 2 million Taiwanese and 1 million Koreans living in communist China.
Indians will live and work in Saudi Arabia not because they like dictatorship but because they like the money.
Same as Filipinos like to live in Singapore.

 

[tranquilium]

Democracy gives freedom of expression, the ownership of assets, no censorship, and more over multi party based system... what kind of democracy is this where there these essential ingredients are missing?

Well, freedom of expression is guaranteed as long as it is lawful. For example, under US constitution article III, section III, treason is defined as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." The lesser crime of rumor mongering and libel is also covered under the law. As long as you don't run afoul of these laws, freedom of expression is guaranteed.
Ownership of private asset is always guaranteed even during the most straight laced days in China. Why would anyone think Chinese can't own private asset?
Censorship is similar to freedom of expression article, but in addition, the particular piece may also be subjected to commonly accepted culture and social standards. For example, Chinese culture has more conservative against sexual contents and languages. Pretty sure the Islamic nations would have problems for shows for slaughter and cook pigs or at least frown against it.
Under nowhere the definition says democracy requires multiparty system. US is a two parties system that is almost carbon copy of each other. Though if you consider this to be essentially, the Chinese people's congress also include eight other minor parties. Let's be frank, minor parities are never going to get representation in US since the state election is winner takes all, just like the eight minor parties are never going to take power from CCP. US and China are frightening similar in a lot of stuff.

BTW, if the government censors a foreign service/product to make way for domestic ones, all I can say is tough luck. Trade barrier has existed throughout history and it won't go away anytime soon. (I am looking at you google and facebook)

 

[Nan Yang]

Democracy gives freedom of expression, the ownership of assets, no censorship, and more over multi party based system... what kind of democracy is this where there these essential ingredients are missing?

Talking about the PROCESS may be important. But never ignore the reality and end results.

Eg. US says they have multi-party based system. But in reality they only have 2 parties.

For China results is more important than the PROCESS.
It does not matter if the cat is white or black if it catches the rat, its a good cat.

 

[tranquilium]

Talking about the PROCESS may be important. But never ignore the reality and end results.

Eg. US says they have multi-party based system. But in reality they only have 2 parties.

For China results is more important than the PROCESS.
It does not matter if the cat is white or black if it catches the rat, its a good cat.

The students at Tiananmen has zero idea what to do anyway. They changed the demand for five times and at end was calling to put them in power. Here in the engineering industry we don't even trust 20 year-olds to sign off the order to change a light bulb, let alone putting them in charge of one of the most powerful country in the world.

 

[JSCh]

The May 3 panel was perhaps an effort to stop this from happening. In a statement released to journalists and published online, the participants said they gathered to “investigate the truth of the incident and “restore accuracy to history.” It was only by facing up to what happened, they said, that the country might start “closing its wounds.”

The problem is, can we really trust the "truth" that these people portrayed? We have known that they have lied through their teeth repeatedly. The June 4th pro-democracy activists has lost their credibility by all their antics in the last twenty years.

Chinese has a proverb that goes like this, if the journey is long, then you would know the stamina/endurance of the horse. If the time past is long, then you would know the true heart of a person.

The incident happened twenty years ago. The truth is simple, it is a mass protest that has gone out of control. Factually, the Chinese official account is pretty accurate. Up to argument is the political account, which is subjective to which side you are on. Obviously lessons had been learned, remedial policy were implemented. And wound, what wound? The Chinese people have moved on. It is only the west and their lackey that would not let go.

This is obviously a political movement that use the incident for propaganda. All this people were detained/arrested because of what they did currently, not June 4th. When they associated themselves with foreign element, ask yourself this, would you trust them, if you are Chinese? This is what it ultimately come down to,

 

[bolo]

well my all Chinese colleagues here are pro democracy and abhor the Tianamen incident.. they ant army to be under state's control rather than under control of party.. in their view Dr Sun Yat-Sen is bigger leader than Mao Ze Dong!

Your point being? Your colleagues are playing nice. You know there are two topics that you should avoid with colleagues: religion and politics.

Democracy gives freedom of expression, the ownership of assets, no censorship, and more over multi party based system... what kind of democracy is this where there these essential ingredients are missing?

No censorship in democracy? Are you a retard?

 

[BoQ77]

Chinese govt didnot how to say Sorry. that is it

 

[ViXuyen]

the revolution is looming every year on the anniversary of Tianamen square; the chinese are getting nervous so they divert their revolution problem away from the guillable masses by putting an oil rig in Vietnam. Ironically, by doing so, it unites ALL Vietnamese around the world against them Chinese LOL

Chinese are horrible at tactic and strategy; that's why we keep winning one war after another against them

 

[kalu_miah]

And yet a couple of the posters here who decry democracy and America's view of it....live in the good ole' USA!

That's chutzpah! If those who do really hate it so much, then please do the rest of us patriotic Americans a favour and get out. Please leave. Go to the dictatorship of your choice and try and be happy and successful there.

It is the hight of ungratefulness and bad manners to come to another's house and then bad mouth them.

No one said that we hate democracy, the democracy in the US may not be perfect, but overall democracy has worked for Western countries and some developed countries in the East like Japan, Korea and Taiwan. What is wrong with democracy in the US? Billionaires pretty much running the show, bought up both political parties and have managed to put in majority right wing judges in Supreme court, resut:
Campaign finance reform in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because of these decisions taken by unelected right with majority judges, all selected by successive Republican presidents, billionaires now get to spend unlimited money in media, get their people elected, their laws passed and the sheeple brainwashed from this media blitz vote against their own interest. So democracy, specially in the US needs a lot of work, in my opinion. I find democracies in Nordic countries work much better:
Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All we are saying is that this kind of multi-party democracy does not seem to be very suitable for underdeveloped countries. It creates chaos and leaves the country open to subversion. Every country situation is different and one size fits all prescription simply does not work. I have seen than first hand in my own country as I mentioned in my previous post.

And why get personal, who gives you the right to ask anyone to get out? If you believe in democracy, don't we have the right to express our opinion freely, even if you may not like what you hear?

 

[kalu_miah]

Which "innocent" country? The Taliban's Afghanistan that hosted the terrorists who murdered thousands of innocent Americans on 9/11/2001 or the "innocent" Saddam Hussein's Iraq who invaded and raped Kuwait, defied the cease fire and attacked coalition forces and used poison gas in genocide on his own people?

You should read about how Taliban was created. Jihadi extremism was sponsored and unleashed in this theater by none other than CIA and their willing partners in some regional countries. And when the job was done, Soviet Union got defeated, the US washed its hand and left.

Whatever Saddam did to his own people, this cannot be justification for US invasion. About Kuwait, Bush Sr. did the right thing, kicking Saddam out of Kuwait but did not occupy Iraq. Bush Jr. invaded Iraq on based on fabricated "facts" and handed Iraq to Iran, an enemy of the US. I would say this was brilliant work by smart asses in state department.

 

[INDIC]

And yet a couple of the posters here who decry democracy and America's view of it....live in the good ole' USA!

I thought only the Chinese living in their communist censorland are confused about freedom and democracy but I was wrong, it goes beyond that.

 

[kalu_miah]

in addition to that. Some of the same PDF bellicose keyboard warriors who live very comfortably in the USA (and other western countries) are usually some of the first ones who will scream for bloodlust and war. All while sitting back on their very comfy couches in far away lands.

Freedom of speech, sir.

 

[TaiShang]

the revolution is looming every year on the anniversary of Tianamen square; the chinese are getting nervous so they divert their revolution problem away from the guillable masses by putting an oil rig in Vietnam. Ironically, by doing so, it unites ALL Vietnamese around the world against them Chinese LOL

Chinese are horrible at tactic and strategy; that's why we keep winning one war after another against them

Well, before that, you should start worrying about your strong ally in the South China Sea ( ), Turkey, where revolution (or a bloody suppression) is looming.

Get your brain going since it seems to have frozen some 25 years ago.

In the meantime in Tenanmen:

I thought only the Chinese living in their communist censorland are confused about freedom and democracy but I was wrong, it goes beyond that.

Better than living in your stinky corrupt land.

 

[chhota bheem]

In the meantime in Tenanmen:

Better than living in your stinky corrupt land.

Nice fireworks mate,how much do you think china is spending on it ?