20 most decisive battles of the world.

[Joe Shearer]

A good example of warped thinking influencing neutral analysis of military situations.

That list is by far the most laughable thing I've ever read
Hydaspes is disputed and meant absolutely nothing ... pathological greek liars claimed that he won but all of the evidence shows otherwise
And what evidence might that be? I have argued in the past, in PDF itself, that Hydaspes may have been a drawn encounter, but it is surprising to hear such confident talk of "all the evidence".

Badr, Yarmouk, Firoz, Salamis (I will admit this one although the world is a much worst place because of it), the campaigns of Kurus (Cyrus the Great) are at the top since they've shaped the world to this day.
How is a campaign a battle? Salamis is at the first position on the 'laughable list. Let us titter together. Yarmouk is at 8. LOL, perhaps? No doubt, if a God-fearing person asks, you might deign to explain why Badr or Firoz should figure, but you will probably ignore, quite rightly, such requests from infidels. I will wait for the pious to extract an answer.

The next tier are battles like the Second Siege of Constantinople, the Battle of Vienna, the Battle of Plassey, the battles of Tarrain, the Battle of Qasr al Kabir, Manzikert (whole roman military nearly destroyed while outnumbering the Turks as much as 4 to 1), and the euro genocides in the americas.
More of the triumph of the Good People. Understandable. Admittedly, Manzikert should have been included. How the euro genocides in the americas count as a 'battle' is difficult to fathom. Another task for the pious. Meanwhile, broad grins at no. 17.

Chalons is another battle that meant nothing as it is also a disputed euro victory, a stalemate at best ... the Huns still went back after that battle and sacked every city in Italy north of Rome and Rome itself was next until the pope begged Attila to leave it

Chalons being indecisive means nothing as a political, ideological statement. The Huns did retreat, over territory already stripped of military resistance, and sacked defenceless cities. The fact is that they never recovered, never were able to repeat their exploits.

In 1529 eastern europes weather won the battle against the Turks more than anything
God won all the victories. When he didn't, it was the fault of the weather. Quite.
The only possible reaction to this is that if all victories against the Europeans were valid, and all by them were accidental, this becomes entirely an Asian list. There is not much difference between that bias and a Euro-centric bias. Both continue to neglect east Asia, but that doesn't seem to bother our pulpit-thumping critic.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree. The battle of manzikert should be there somewhere. Maybe even the battle of tours where huge Muslim army was defeated by franks.

You might care to glance at entry 9.

 

[SherAli]

Honestly I thought you were ranking that list from most decisive to least decisive (instead of chronology) which was my main reason for posting a response to it ... so don't get butthurt over simple criticism ...

I still disagree with it (not that much TBH) but whatever, to each his own

 

[Joe Shearer]

Honestly I thought you were ranking that list from most decisive to least decisive (instead of chronology) which was my main reason for posting a response to it ... so don't get butthurt over simple criticism ...

I still disagree with it (not that much TBH) but whatever, to each his own

There was no getting butthurt over simple criticism. Your points are valid and extremely useful, but your way of expressing yourself is not one that I relish. The same thoughts or sentiments in reasonable, civilised language would have been appreciated.

By all means add to the discussion; in certain senses, you have already influenced it and there is no reason why you cannot add to it. Just don't expect me to go along with the adjectives.

Incidentally, I took the liberty of asking a friend, who has been absent from these discussions for far too long, to contribute from the Chinese, indeed, the east Asian point of view. Let us see if he agrees, and what he comes up with.

 

[SherAli]

Far eastern, or at least Chinese civilization, has been pretty much static for the most part ... just changing of dynasties except for the Mongols and the Japanese

Chinggis Khan conquers north China by crushing literally their whole military despite the Chinese neutralizing the Mongol advantage

Battle of the Badger Mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The numbers for the Chinese military seem ridiculously high though but they've always had a huge population so maybe it is possible

Battle of Talas is another important battle since it led to the C Asian Turks formally accepting Islam in great numbers and the transmission of paper

 

[meghdut]

There was no getting butthurt over simple criticism. Your points are valid and extremely useful, but your way of expressing yourself is not one that I relish. The same thoughts or sentiments in reasonable, civilised language would have been appreciated.

By all means add to the discussion; in certain senses, you have already influenced it and there is no reason why you cannot add to it. Just don't expect me to go along with the adjectives.

Incidentally, I took the liberty of asking a friend, who has been absent from these discussions for far too long, to contribute from the Chinese, indeed, the east Asian point of view. Let us see if he agrees, and what he comes up with.

Chinese influence in military history is negligible. They were a inward looking nation for most of the time and had little expansionist activities beyond their frontiers. So none of their battles can be included as most decisive battle of the world, as they did not influence anything beyond China. If anything then only the battles of Korean War can be thought to have any decisive influence in Military History; still not enough to be of top 20 I think. The one comes to mind may be "Battle of Chongchon River" You may suggest more if you like. The only major Chinese contribution in military affairs is technology, Rockets and Gunpowder; both which changed the face of battlefield .

 

[SherAli]

An important east Asian battle would have to be the Battle of Port Arthur

it was the first real Asian victory over a euro country in the modern era

the Japanese have a rich military history, except like China, it was mostly warring clans over Japan.

Some famous battles from them are the Battle of Sekigahara, the Battles of Hakata Bay and Kōan
(actually of very great importance as it saved Japan from the Mongols ... well at least the weather did ... if the Mongol fleets landed then I doubt Japan would've survived the Mongol onslaught ... but a victory is a victory) and the Satsuma Rebellion that ended the samurai era in Japan and gave rise to the modern era where they would be able to contend with euros and Battle of Dan-no-ura which gave rise to the first Shogunate.

I guess the euro trash is still butthurt over Japan backhanding russia and challenging them which is why they aren't allowed to have a standing army anymore

 

[meghdut]

An important east Asian battle would have to be the Battle of Port Arthur

it was the first real Asian victory over a euro country in the modern era

the Japanese have a rich military history, except like China, it was mostly warring clans over Japan.

Some famous battles from them are the Battle of Sekigahara, the Battles of Hakata Bay and Kōan
(actually of very great importance as it saved Japan from the Mongols ... well at least the weather did ... if the Mongol fleets landed then I doubt Japan would've survived the Mongol onslaught ... but a victory is a victory) and the Satsuma Rebellion that ended the samurai era in Japan and gave rise to the modern era where they would be able to contend with euros and Battle of Dan-no-ura which gave rise to the first Shogunate.

I guess the euro trash is still butthurt over Japan backhanding russia and challenging them which is why they aren't allowed to have a standing army anymore

The 1905 Russo-Japanese war is indeed a most important conflict historically. It projected Japan as a major world power and signaled the rise of first major modern Asian power. Apart from battle of Port Arthur, Battle of Tshushima Strait is also a very important naval battle of modern times. The Imperial Russian Navy lost all its battleship and a large number of other ships and Japan remained the major Asian naval power till World War II.

 

[SherAli]

The 1905 Russo-Japanese war is indeed a most important conflict historically. It projected Japan as a major world power and signaled the rise of first major modern Asian power. Apart from battle of Port Arthur, Battle of Tshushima Strait is also a very important naval battle of modern times. The Imperial Russian Navy lost all its battleship and a large number of other ships and Japan remained the major Asian naval power till World War II.

It was the first real victory of an Asian power over euros since the Ottoman empire

 

[meghdut]

I however strongly feel that we should include Dien Bien Phu in the list. It was the battle which set the stage for 2.5 decades of drama and decisively shaped modern east asian history.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I however strongly feel that we should include Dien Bien Phu in the list. It was the battle which set the stage for 2.5 decades of drama and decisively shaped modern east asian history.

On another thread, I have the misfortune to deal with a Chinese troll who is busy painting a bleak picture of the Indian Army and its performance during WWII. We got to discussing the comparative merits and comparative performance of the Indian Army and the Chinese Army, with some particular references to the Burmese theatre (comparing two Armies in this way is one of the stupidest exercises of all time, but there it is).

If we look at the battle record of the Chinese Army as a whole against the Imperial Japanese Army, they did quite well (don't tell the troll just yet). Their record is so astonishingly mixed, their valour and courage so varied in its display, that reading about these campaigns is a fascinating project.

I warmly recommend these campaigns and battles to you. Nearly half the Japanese casualties in WWII died in battles against the Chinese, and that took its toll on the stamina of the Japanese in facing the Allied onslaught in the Pacific and the Burma theaters.

 

[gubbi]

I don't like religion-centric lists.

Come to think of it, I don't like religion-centric posters and their posts.

I am anything but learned in such topics as this, but havent these religion-centric battles been decisive in shaping the present day world order? And by that I mean the geo-politics of the middle east and its impact on the rest of the world.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am anything but learned in such topics as this, but havent these religion-centric battles been decisive in shaping the present day world order? And by that I mean the geo-politics of the middle east and its impact on the rest of the world.

My objection was not to those that had a genuine impact in the ways that you mention, but to those others that have been cited (elsewhere, not in this thread) as important because they featured some hero or the other who was felt to be a major religious figure, or because they were important in purely religious terms, for instance, the victory of one faction over another.

It is not desirable to explain further.

 

[meghdut]

On another thread, I have the misfortune to deal with a Chinese troll who is busy painting a bleak picture of the Indian Army and its performance during WWII. We got to discussing the comparative merits and comparative performance of the Indian Army and the Chinese Army, with some particular references to the Burmese theatre (comparing two Armies in this way is one of the stupidest exercises of all time, but there it is).

If we look at the battle record of the Chinese Army as a whole against the Imperial Japanese Army, they did quite well (don't tell the troll just yet). Their record is so astonishingly mixed, their valour and courage so varied in its display, that reading about these campaigns is a fascinating project.

I warmly recommend these campaigns and battles to you. Nearly half the Japanese casualties in WWII died in battles against the Chinese, and that took its toll on the stamina of the Japanese in facing the Allied onslaught in the Pacific and the Burma theaters.

I saw it.You had the misfortune of dealing with Megaton. I`ll definitely look into it. However my readings tell me that Japanese defeat in WW2 was decided in Pacific theatre where she had to face off against US Navy's immense potential for attritional struggle. Admiral Yamamoto warned about this before the beginning of Pearl Harbor. If Japan had not attacked the US its unlikely that she would have lost to China. Rather than WW2 victories PLA's victories in civil war against the Kuomintang and against UN forces in Korea in 1950 are more decisive in my opinion.I'm however speaking in r/o to this particular thread not demeaning the Chinese contribution to Allied cause in WW2.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Joe my main problem is i'm useless at chinese and korean military history.Good at japan though.You might have to do yourself.And still waiting for you to show up on historum.