1st Indian envoy wanted Kashmir in Pakistan

[Contrarian]

Can u throw some light on economic progress in IHK ?
how developed its infrastructure is ?

google, compare the level of development in Indian Kashmir and AK. You will see the results.

 

[araz]

google, compare the level of development in Indian Kashmir and AK. You will see the results.

Jana.
Iam afraid, he is right. Inspite of the insurgency, tyhe Indian occupied Kashmir is still better developed, because of its value as a tourist resort. There are many nuances to this saga. There are the differences between the people of the valley , versus the people of themountains. Talking to a lot of Kashmiris, the gist of their argument is in favour of independence rather than being allied with Pakistan or India. If you look at the trend in the Pakistani Beaurocracy,s statements over the last decade or so ,it is shifting slowly in recognition of the the will of the Kashmiris. Neo,s idea odf a Plebiscite is correct, provided it leaves the people concerned all the choices, ie,Independence, alliance with Pakistan, alliance with India.Whereas for us it is a matter of principle, for India, it is a matter of survival, as Independence of Kashmir would lead to potential disintegration ofIndia with all the other state wanting independence as well. Musharraf,s proposals are reasonable and we may , in the next 20 yrs or so, find this matter resolved in the shape of an independant Kashmir with Pakistan and India both being responsible for certain aspects of state management. At least this is what people in the know tell me.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Always Neutral]

Can anyone guide me to a website where the the full report is published ? I believe it was passed by the EU in May 2007. Please the bold part about the Plebecite


London, March. 6 : A European Union report on Jammu and Kashmir has disfavoured any plebiscite in the state, saying it would be "meaningless" unless Pakistan withdraws all its troops from the parts under it, corrects the demographic changes and ensures return of territory under China.

The report, to be discussed by the EU's Foreign Affairs Committee on March 21, notes that over last 58 years, there have been large scale population changes in Azad Kashmir (Azad Kashmir) with people from outside settling in unlike the the Indian side where such settlements are prohibited.

An amendment recognising this situation is among 16 accepted from among 250 moved in the report prepared by prominent Member of European Parliament (MEP) Baronness Emma Nicholson.

These would be discussed by Foreign Affairs Committee on March 21 before the report is presented to the plenary for voting towards the end of May.

"Any plebiscite would be meaningless without a change in policy from Islamabad, which maintains that all of Kashmir is an integral part of Pakistan's territory, and without Pakistani troop withdrawals and the return of Punjabi and Pathan settlers from Gilgit and Baltistan as well as Chinese withdrawal from Aksai Chin and the Shaksgam Valley," the amendment said.

"The Constitution of AJK (Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Azad Kashmir) of 1974 would have to be altered if the people there are to be invited for plebiscite. The situation since 1947 has changed. The UN Resolution on J-K stipulated the condition that there should be complete withdrawal of troops from Pakistan from the occupied area and those who settled from outside Kashmir should also withdraw," Nicholson told reporters.

 

[Samudra]

unless there is a pleb

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

And get your goverment to withdraw sovereignity over NA, Gilgit. Get the areas you ceded to China. And take back those settled in from the outside.

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

 

[Bull]

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

And get your goverment to withdraw sovereignity over NA, Gilgit. Get the areas you ceded to China. And take back those settled in from the outside.

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

fida ho gaya mein teri posting style par.

 

[Neo]

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

And get your goverment to withdraw sovereignity over NA, Gilgit. Get the areas you ceded to China. And take back those settled in from the outside.

Bring back the Kashmiris of 1947 from the dead.

Reduce your troops to 18.000 as suggested per UN resolution.
Bring back the 75.000+ deads you killed chasing national interests.
Stop fake encounters to kill inocent muslim civilians.

Bring back the prtion YOU LOST to China in 1962 and we'll talk.

 

[Neo]

"The Constitution of AJK (Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Azad Kashmir) of 1974 would have to be altered if the people there are to be invited for plebiscite. The situation since 1947 has changed. The UN Resolution on J-K stipulated the condition that there should be complete withdrawal of troops from Pakistan from the occupied area and those who settled from outside Kashmir should also withdraw," Nicholson told reporters.

"This is an individual's report which has been presented to the European Parliaments Foreign Relations Committee. In this context what is of importance and relevance will be the Kashmiri opinion,".

 

[joey]

always neutral I really dont think what EU makes report or not will make any much difference.

Neo I think the talk what was being made here is on plebicite? not who killed how many because there is both side of the story.

Lets Define plebicite, As I know it means ones right to choose where to live and where not to.

My point is very simple, Kashmir as of stands today has laws of us Indians prohibiting to buy any land there , on the other hand Pakistanis can freely settle from any parts of country to Kashmir and they have done that before.

This violates the very basic parametres of plebicite, Does GOP has a national census or record on how many kith and kin families settled in Azad Kashmir or crossed the LOC.

Regarding few points you raised,

1> The Indian Army wont vote in plebicite, it rules out the point, taking army back is fine but can you ensure no cross border ifnilteration will take place?

2> Are you referring to the riots of 47? I think there is both side of the story and one needs to look into who started things.

3> Fake encounters are probed into the highest Army courts and many have been punished so far, Fake encounter are decentralised incidents that happened due to many causes,

1> To gain cheap publicity.
2> Win medals.
3> Mental frustation.

GOI does not has a agenda or policy of ethnic cleansing by using fake encounter, rather it is a part of the problem which needs to be dealt with with the existing system.

You have violation of blaspemy law in Pakistan, does that means repelling it would stop the violence? think!

3> I didnt quite get you on this, Losing something to someone is different matter than gifting someone something, as it exposes double standards of the policy towards the region concerned of the establishment in general.

 

[Samudra]

Reduce your troops to 18.000 as suggested per UN resolution.

I had mentioned what you had to do before we get back our troops to 18,000 in the last post.

Bring back the 75.000+ deads you killed chasing national interests.

75000 dead, yes. Bring them back, yes.

But they were killed by infiltrating fundamentalists in the name of Muslim brotherhood.

We wash our hands off that blood.

The worst we could be guilty of is the fact that we, in the initial phases, did not kill as many as we would have liked. But, nevertheless, we tried to kill as many as terrorists as we could and in the process helped save as many innocent Kashmiris as we could.

Stop fake encounters to kill inocent muslim civilians.

We cannot stop something unless we're already doing it.

Bring back the prtion YOU LOST to China in 1962

I'm assuming that the extent of love Pakistan has for the legitimate aspirations of the Kashmiri people will move the whole nation to humbly petition its all weather friend China, with whom Pakistan has a friendship that is higher than something and deeper than something to kindly allow Indians to march into the land that was rightfully theirs in order to reach a settlement.

Such is the friendship with China, such is the goodwill for Kashmiri people. Is it not ?

talk

You're forgetful my friend. You made a big post in vain.

We're not the ones in a hurry to conduct a pleb.

 

[Samudra]

fida ho gaya mein teri posting style par.

Hey, what on earth does that mean ??? I dont know Hindi!

 

[Neo]

always neutral I really dont think what EU makes report or not will make any much difference.

No, it doesn't.

Neo I think the talk what was being made here is on plebicite? not who killed how many because there is both side of the story.

I was merely replying to Sam's post in same manner.

Lets Define plebicite, As I know it means ones right to choose where to live and where not to.

My point is very simple, Kashmir as of stands today has laws of us Indians prohibiting to buy any land there , on the other hand Pakistanis can freely settle from any parts of country to Kashmir and they have done that before.

This violates the very basic parametres of plebicite, Does GOP has a national census or record on how many kith and kin families settled in Azad Kashmir or crossed the LOC.

As long as Indian army can be deployed in large numbers in Jammu and Kashmir as we saw back in 2001, a surge of as many as 700.000 troops within weeks, all this hypocricy regarding transmigration restrictions and anti property rights becomes meaningless to me, its a huge PR stunt wich adds no value to the comon native Kashmiri.

I bet comon Kashmiri muslim has more issues with being controlled by Indian Army rather than seing peaceful Hindus moving into their land.

Regarding few points you raised,

1> The Indian Army wont vote in plebicite, it rules out the point, taking army back is fine but can you ensure no cross border ifnilteration will take place?

If a plebicite is held in AK only native Kashmir's will be allowed to vote.

2> Are you referring to the riots of 47? I think there is both side of the story and one needs to look into who started things.

No I'm not and indeed there are two sides of the stories, both ends suffered huge.

3> Fake encounters are probed into the highest Army courts and many have been punished so far, Fake encounter are decentralised incidents that happened due to many causes,

1> To gain cheap publicity.
2> Win medals.
3> Mental frustation.

Oh I'm sure this will bring back the deads and joy the the families who suffered loss and humiliation.

GOI does not has a agenda or policy of ethnic cleansing by using fake encounter, rather it is a part of the problem which needs to be dealt with with the existing system.

Yet it happened repeatedly and its still hasn't stopped.

You have violation of blaspemy law in Pakistan, does that means repelling it would stop the violence? think!

No!

3> I didnt quite get you on this, Losing something to someone is different matter than gifting someone something, as it exposes double standards of the policy towards the region concerned of the establishment in general.

As fas as we're concerened Aksai Chin is a redrawn international boundry between Pakistan and China, it was part of Northern Territories, not kashmir.

 

[joey]

No, it doesn't.

I said it doesnt because it doesnt matters what the world says on Kashmir, We have been saying the points in the article for ages, and can deal with alone. I reflected the diplomatic stance of EU as being 'matter' and not the 'substance' of the report part of which we have been saying for ages.

As long as Indian army can be deployed in large numbers in Jammu and Kashmir as we saw back in 2001, a surge of as many as 700.000 troops within weeks, all this hypocricy regarding transmigration restrictions and anti property rights becomes meaningless to me, its a huge PR stunt wich adds no value to the comon native Kashmiri.

Your diverting the topic here with a out of context post, I asked you these simple questions,

1> Justify plebicite when non-kashmiris can and has settled in Kashmir.
2> Justify plebicite when you dont have a national record on whose family and kith and kin came from outside to Kashmir.
3> Justify repel of Army when infilteration of LOC is going on in daily basis.

So can you explain that these army are not needed to tacke the terror? and how come it becomes a Pr stunt to you on the TWO VERY IMPORTANT issues of plebicite that you mentioned aka transmigration and anti-property rights.

I find the link between the two absurd, Army is there to control infilteration to CHECK further transmigration, and mass scale bombing followed by fatwas not to attend Indian idol, while transmigration and anti-property rights are there to HONOR the norms of plebicite.

You have not proved how come these 70000 army be a part of plebicite when their number/name to everything is DOCUMENTED.

I bet comon Kashmiri muslim has more issues with being controlled by Indian Army rather than seing peaceful Hindus moving into their land.

This is correct, however your argument has a serious issue lets analyze it,

1> Are you guaranteeing that terrorists wont cross LOC provided the army comes back? Like they have not been doing that? So you want army to go away from KAshmir and give these terrorists a free pass to come inside and create another civil war?

2> Are you guaranteeing that if 'peaceful' 10 million hindus moves into Kashmir Pakistan would 'agree' with plebicite, or wont raise diplomatic furore? Trust me we have enough people if GOI wants to re-settle a few 10-20 million peoples in Kashmir then ask for plebicite, quid pro-pro?

If a plebicite is held in AK only native Kashmir's will be allowed to vote.

And how will you distinguish who are native kashmiris, who are deported pundits,who are killed kith and kin of the riots (be it from any religion) and who are terrorists and most importantly who are settle dewellers who came from other parts to settle in?

You asked about repel of 70000 troops, since plebicite was being discussed I asked you simply Indian army has written documented record of their men serving in Kashmir, and they wont be allowed to vote.

Show me such provision for distinguish between the above peoples i mentioned.

No I'm not and indeed there are two sides of the stories, both ends suffered huge.

then which one?

Oh I'm sure this will bring back the deads and joy the the families who suffered loss and humiliation.

Again did not got you, all I said fake encounters happened for those reasons and are being dealt with in army courts, many have got punishment, can you show me what has the terrorists got justice when they ethnic cleansed villages after villages? I have some very recent news on the same have to dwell upon a bit.

Yet it happened repeatedly and its still hasn't stopped.

Define stop in context of what you said? How come some thing stop? Stop defines perfectness, so a few fake encounter becomes equal to ethnic cleansing? and de-centralised happening of the same becomes a continuation of the adjective 'stop' ? How will it stop when to begin with it is a de-centralised phenomenon, it can happen tomorroow , can happen after 10 years, can happen anyday, GOI has / had and has been ensuring that such incident does not takes place and that is what matters, judging on a few doesnt do justice to the system of what is being tried out and a little but deviation from it doesnt proves the deviation is in continuity.

No!

See If it wont stop, Tell me how do you expect it to stop? The same question you asked me before, to me it can happen tomorrow after 10 years, solution lies in efefctive management, is blaspemy law as being practiced so widespread is what it is entitled to carry out? the same way the fake encounters that happend are not what GOI Code of Conduct tells them to carry out, but to the terrorists , their code of conduct is to kill civilians. see the difference?

As fas as we're concerened Aksai Chin is a redrawn international boundry between Pakistan and China, it was part of Northern Territories, not kashmir.

Okay so now Northern Areas are not part of Jammu and Kashmir?

Kashmir: Letter from Pakistan's Ambassador to Belgium to Baroness Nicholson, Member, European Parliament.
http://www.hindu.com/nic/ambassadorletter.pdf

Check out the reply..
Map of Kashmir in 1909 ; Reply from Baroness Nicholson, MEP, to Pakistan's Ambassador ; Accession of Jammu and Kashmir - Maharaja Hari Singh's letter to Lord Mountbatten, 1947.

http://www.hindu.com/nic/baronessresponse.pdf

(The hindu is a commie paper, and when it got outraged by this claim of northern areas not being part of jammu and kashmir, you know something is wrong!)


My stance remains, of that plebicite is not realistic as Pakistan has violated the very basic norm of plebicite and that of re-settlement and no-infilteration, LOC can become Ib and better facilitation of peoples across with their families in this side can be thought out, leaving a inch of land cannot be thought out.

As of Army coming out im all for it, can only happen when infilteration stops which can only happen when GOP comes into peace truce with GOI and GOI does the same with making LOc into IB.

 

[Adux]

Reduce your troops to 18.000 as suggested per UN resolution.

You have to do it first, i have said this to you enough of times.

Bring back the 75.000+ deads you killed chasing national interests.

Should i start counting the people killed in jihadi inspired bomb blast on trains and the likes

Stop fake encounters to kill inocent muslim civilians.

We are catching and proscuting, while mukthar mai rapist walks scot free.

Bring back the prtion YOU LOST to China in 1962 and we'll talk

That would be nil, you are the one who gifted kashmiri land to the chinese. Chinese left faster than they came in 1962