1965 | Lahore Cantonment is 'our aim'.

[LeGenD]

India Lost 500 tanks in Sialkot, Chawinda sector. It was the biggest tank battle ever. It is near my place and I saw India Tanks there set in every round-about as a symbol of victory.
India got what he achieved. by loosing 500 tanks in one sector?

Source: 1965 | Lahore Cantonment is 'our aim'.

Battle of Kursk is the biggest tank battle ever fought.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Politics got involved. when Pakistan has to fight for the sake of country, ain't nobody is dare to defeat. IT IS PAK ARMY WHO IS FIGHTING AGAINST TERRORISTS/TERRORISM. WHO ARE PAIN IN NECK FOR THE WOLRD. OUR SOLDIERS ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO FIGHT BECAUSE ITS FOR THE SAKE OF MOTHERLAND. And on one hand neighbors are producing terrorism or supporting them. #Peace.

I would appreciate less hysteria and more serious comment. This is not the grandstand at the Wagah border.

Field Marshal Ayub Khan wasted 24 hours of crucial time by halting Operation Grand Slam in Kashmir to change the commander in that region. This blunder gave Indian army sufficient time to mobilize and rollback the gains of Pakistani armed forces.

A very partial answer.

If it was drafted to put up a quick reply, that is understandable. But if it reflects your view of things as they happened in fact, it is horribly compressed: something of the lines of "Two sets of nations warred against each other in World War I, and one set won."

Which was it?

actually the good Indian General was a liar :p

You tempt me....I am in a good mood, and don't want to spoil anybody's day. Let it pass.

This was all over the media - yours, Pakistani and international. Why don't you try and find yourself, or ask someone of that era? I had read it myself.




1. When the Two Nation Theory was enunciated in 1905, present day Pakistan had sizable number of Hindus and Sikhs. So much so, in the 1946 elections (dubbed as the referendum for Pakistan), this area had voted against forming Pakistan. But we under Suhroawrdy had voted overwhelmingly for Pakistan. Also to remember, the elections were on separate electorate. That means the Muslims of present Pakistan had voted against forming Pakistan.
2. Bengali Muslims, who had been soldiers, administrators and leaders of society, had been subjugated to the Hindus in a planned way by the British for own benefit. As such seeking separation was our political agenda.
3. According to the last census (2001), we have a total of about 8% non-Muslims. Hindus would be about half of that. They don't belong to any particular location but are spread out all over. Being low cast / shuddar class they are happier in BD than Brahmin dominated India. However, politics of Indian extremist Hindu parties and our BAL have made them restless.

Thank you, but that's not what I asked. Some idiot journalist trying to get a headline is not evidence. The Indian Express cited did not make a direct quotation, even within those slack boundaries. You may have it read it in one of the stories filed at the time, on the lines of horsemen with swords descending from the skies to defend Lahore, and of one company holding off a division, and so on. Such idiocy is spread by every idiot; those who are not idiots read them, smile sympathetically at the person spreading the story, and look away delicately.

I am asking for sources and authentic data. This is almost 99% a Pakistani story.

Hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat, lekin
Dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghaalib yeh khayaal achcha hai

 

[The-king]

@Joe Shearer
Sir i need your comments on this
'The arrival of the Army was announced by with burning of crops and gutting of houses. Along the roadside from Bhimber Gali to Poonch every house was set on fire," Zafar Choudhary records in "Locating Jammu Muslims in the Kashmir Conflict" (published by Centre for Dialogue and Reconciliation) based on evidence gathered from survivors many years later. It is estimated that nearly 2,000 people were killed during Operation Clearance in 1965.

Another local account reproduced by Choudhary notes that about 83,000 Muslims crossed over to Azad Kashmir during this period. Of these, 65,000 were from the Poonch and Rajouri areas of Surankote, Mandi, Mendhar, Balakote, Thana Mandi, Darhal, Budhal and Kalakot. At the same time 9,000 Hindus and Sikhs shifted from these areas to Jammu and elsewhere. After the cease-fire agreement was signed only about 20% of those who had crossed over to Pakistan returned and a large number of families have remained divided by the Line of Control till today.

"Unfortunately, there were atrocities. The civilian casualties were very high in Rajouri and Poonch," admits Habibullah.

However, today the local residents of Poonch and Rajouri, who have now totally rejected Pakistan, do not want to be reminded of the events of 1965.

"I have talked to my Hindu brothers. They also say that if the 1965 War is publicised and celebrated, a lot of bad things that we have forgotten will come out again. We in Rajouri and Poonch see India as our country and we want to live in peace here. The 1965 War divided us. Many atrocities were committed. Let those memories remain buried," advises an elderly Muslim resident of Rajouri.

Asked about the atrocities, he says, "My father-in-law, for example was killed by a Sikh. What can we do about it now? It is a story that is over. Do not remind us of such things again. We have moved on. Even those who crossed over to Pakistan see the development on this side and regret migrating. But nothing can be done now," he says.

A Hindu community leader of Poonch, who witnessed the events of 1965, says, "Those in Delhi might think that there is something to celebrate. None of us here thinks so. The majority community saw large-scale migration to Pakistan. The minorities were forced to run away to cities. Most did not return. Both the communities continue to be disturbed. So what is there to celebrate?"
1965 Indo-Pakistan War: Why it is senseless to celebrate

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer
Sir i need your comments on this
'The arrival of the Army was announced by with burning of crops and gutting of houses. Along the roadside from Bhimber Gali to Poonch every house was set on fire," Zafar Choudhary records in "Locating Jammu Muslims in the Kashmir Conflict" (published by Centre for Dialogue and Reconciliation) based on evidence gathered from survivors many years later. It is estimated that nearly 2,000 people were killed during Operation Clearance in 1965.

Another local account reproduced by Choudhary notes that about 83,000 Muslims crossed over to *** during this period. Of these, 65,000 were from the Poonch and Rajouri areas of Surankote, Mandi, Mendhar, Balakote, Thana Mandi, Darhal, Budhal and Kalakot. At the same time 9,000 Hindus and Sikhs shifted from these areas to Jammu and elsewhere. After the cease-fire agreement was signed only about 20% of those who had crossed over to Pakistan returned and a large number of families have remained divided by the Line of Control till today.

"Unfortunately, there were atrocities. The civilian casualties were very high in Rajouri and Poonch," admits Habibullah.

However, today the local residents of Poonch and Rajouri, who have now totally rejected Pakistan, do not want to be reminded of the events of 1965.

"I have talked to my Hindu brothers. They also say that if the 1965 War is publicised and celebrated, a lot of bad things that we have forgotten will come out again. We in Rajouri and Poonch see India as our country and we want to live in peace here. The 1965 War divided us. Many atrocities were committed. Let those memories remain buried," advises an elderly Muslim resident of Rajouri.

Asked about the atrocities, he says, "My father-in-law, for example was killed by a Sikh. What can we do about it now? It is a story that is over. Do not remind us of such things again. We have moved on. Even those who crossed over to Pakistan see the development on this side and regret migrating. But nothing can be done now," he says.

A Hindu community leader of Poonch, who witnessed the events of 1965, says, "Those in Delhi might think that there is something to celebrate. None of us here thinks so. The majority community saw large-scale migration to Pakistan. The minorities were forced to run away to cities. Most did not return. Both the communities continue to be disturbed. So what is there to celebrate?"
1965 Indo-Pakistan War: Why it is senseless to celebrate

These are facts that frankly I would like to investigate: at the moment, I have next to no evidence about them. I have a lot of evidence about events in this area prior to 1948 (covering the previous two to three years), but about the incidents relating to the 1965 war, I have just caught up with the military incidents, and am left to ponder over Agha Amin's brilliant summation, the side with fewer idiots won.

If you permit, I would like to take time out, study this, and get back. I am sorry to let you down.

 

[The-king]

These are facts that frankly I would like to investigate: at the moment, I have next to no evidence about them. I have a lot of evidence about events in this area prior to 1948 (covering the previous two to three years), but about the incidents relating to the 1965 war, I have just caught up with the military incidents, and am left to ponder over Agha Amin's brilliant summation, the side with fewer idiots won.

If you permit, I would like to take time out, study this, and get back. I am sorry to let you down.

Sure Sir even this is new thing for me and a detailed well analyzed reply always welcomed.
Regards,

 

[LeGenD]

A very partial answer.

If it was drafted to put up a quick reply, that is understandable. But if it reflects your view of things as they happened in fact, it is horribly compressed: something of the lines of "Two sets of nations warred against each other in World War I, and one set won."

Which was it?

To be honest, neither Pakistan and nor India were prepared for a lengthy conflict during this time. This is apparent from the fact that the war left both nations exhausted in the context of loss of military assets and Indian Navy (in particular) was nowhere to be seen.

Even though all branches of Pakistani military (PAF; Army; and Navy) were prepared to fight some battles during 1965, limited resources would prevent long-term gains and/or capture of large swaths of territory.

Breakthrough was expected to occur in (disputed part of) Kashmir with an ambitious military operation that would catch Indian armed forces off-guard with its sheer ferocity and force India to commit most of its resources to Kashmir (i.e. Operation Grand Slam was planned and launched for this purpose) because Operation Gibraltar was not producing desired results (one of my relatives served in Operation Gibraltar ). Pakistani leadership hoped to gain leverage in (disputed part of) Kashmir with occupation of Akhnoor and Srinagar and force India to the negotiation table on favorable terms.

It still puzzles me why Ayub Khan wasted 24 hours for the purpose of changing the command of Operation Grand Slam (I am aware of a reason from close contact but I will not disclosed it). That (ill-advised) delay changed the dynamics of the war in favor of India and Kashmir dispute remains unresolved to this day.

 

[Joe Shearer]

To be honest, neither Pakistan and nor India were prepared for a lengthy conflict during this time. This is apparent from the fact that the war left both nations exhausted in the context of losses of material and Indian Navy was nowhere to be seen.

Even though all branches of Pakistani military (PAF; Army; and Navy) were prepared to fight some battles during 1965, limited resources would prevent long-term gains and/or capture of large swaths of territory.

Breakthrough was expected to occur in (disputed part of) Kashmir with an ambitious military operation that would catch Indian armed forces off-guard with its sheer ferocity and force India to commit most of its resources to Kashmir (i.e. Operation Grand Slam was planned and launched for this purpose) because Operation Gibraltar was not producing desired results (one of my relatives served in Operation Gibraltar ). Pakistani leadership hoped to gain leverage in (disputed part of) Kashmir with occupation of Akhnoor and Srinagar and force India to the negotiation table on favorable terms.

It still puzzles me why Ayub Khan wasted 24 hours for the purpose of changing the command of Operation Grand Slam (I am aware of a reason from close contact but I will not disclosed it). That (ill-advised) delay changed the dynamics of the war in favor of India and Kashmir dispute remains unresolved to this day.

Much better.

Thank you very much.

Actually, the combination of Gibraltar and Grand Slam was quite a doozy. It was not planned like that; I like to think, because the evidence seems to show that, that Grand Slam was designed to get the best advantage from Gibraltar's failure, and to hide the disadvantages of that failure. Whatever it was, Akhtar Hussain Malik (an Ahmedi) comes out as an astute planner, and a potentially winning executant until that bewildering helicopter-borne descent by Musa and Yahya Khan, and his being whisked away without a word of explanation!! Not that Yahya was a bad soldier, but the two or three days of getting in touch with the dispositions and the battle plans of the troops gave Harbaksh Singh just the time he needed to reinforce the hopelessly inadequate forces found to be opposing a Pakistani attack. The pressure that followed was unbearable pressure. The counter-attack aimed at Lahore followed.