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1600 women killed in 2013 in Pakistan

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Domestic violence is a different issue. Yes, that happens in North America and Europe as well. But they don't have "honor killings" or revenge rapes. They do not have county courts sentencing women to be raped because their brother fell in love with the wrong girl. That's what your tribal shuras or our khap panchayats do. They don't have fathers and brothers killing girls or women to preserve "family honour".

Yes, domestic abuse happens in other places as well but it does not find social justification like it does in the subcontinent. Let's admit the social evils in our societies, instead of all this hand waving and finger pointing at others.

Whats the difference if you are a women and get killed because of honour or by a drug induced rage by your boyfriend? Both these practices are harmful for the woman. Atleast one can be blamed on uneducation and backward tribal mentality.
 
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Whats the difference if you are a women and get killed because of honour or by a drug induced rage by your boyfriend? Both these practices are harmful for the woman. Atleast one can be blamed on uneducation and backward tribal mentality.

Well by that token, you can ask what difference does it make whether she is killed by an abusive husband or by a careless driver - and USA has thousands of road accidents each year, so...

It's about identifying a real problem.

Domestic abuse happens everywhere, whether in USA or India or Pak or Europe. That is a problem of psychopathic or abusive individuals, and the most we can do is to encourage anybody in an abusive relationship or anybody witnessing one to report it to the authorities. Again, in the west there are much better protection mechanisms for that, than in the subcontinent, where trying to register a police complaint for domestic abuse is itself an abusive experience. BTW, if you take domestic abuse into account I am perfectly sure that Pak or India will have plenty of stories to tell - the stats presented on topic is solely about women killed for "honor".

That is the real problem I am talking about that exists in our countries, but not in the west - socially sanctioned abuse or rape or murder of women. Killing them for falling in love with a boy, or raping her because her brother fell in love with a girl. Such things only happen in the subcontinent, not in the west. This is an isssue we have IN ADDITION to domestiic abuse. So pointing out domestic abuse in the west doesn't make us any better in comparison, because we have that problem as well.
 
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Why compare? why not accept?
Only when one accepts can one compare logically a crime that takes place everywhere! When one doesnt accept they only put 1 side of the story like OP...


If she's dead - there's no point in reporting it is what you are saying?
I am saying if she is dead who is going to go report it that it was an honor killing and not an accidental death? Do you thing a random xyz is going to go report and then continue to go to court proceedings and with no evidence (as it doesnt happen in broad daylight everytime nor does it happen in front of witness nor does it happen where people can easily collect evidence nor do people actually announce it) so who is going to know, report and follow up ?

Sometimes family does, sometimes friends do...but isnt it the same in India? Why acting soo surprised and asking such questions?
 
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Well by that token, you can ask what difference does it make whether she is killed by an abusive husband or by a careless driver - and USA has thousands of road accidents each year, so...

It's about identifying a real problem.

Domestic abuse happens everywhere, whether in USA or India or Pak or Europe. That is a problem of psychopathic or abusive individuals, and the most we can do is to encourage anybody in an abusive relationship or anybody witnessing one to report it to the authorities. Again, in the west there are much better protection mechanisms for that, than in the subcontinent, where trying to register a police complaint for domestic abuse is itself an abusive experience. BTW, if you take domestic abuse into account I am perfectly sure that Pak or India will have plenty of stories to tell - the stats presented on topic is solely about women killed for "honor".

That is the real problem I am talking about that exists in our countries, but not in the west - socially sanctioned abuse or rape or murder of women. Killing them for falling in love with a boy, or raping her because her brother fell in love with a girl. Such things only happen in the subcontinent, not in the west. This is an isssue we have IN ADDITION to domestiic abuse. So pointing out domestic abuse in the west doesn't make us any better in comparison, because we have that problem as well.

The numbers I gave you were for domestic abuse victims in the US, not accident fatalities. You even added suicides in the Pakistani column and I let it slide. Suicides are not added in the US numbers.

The problem has been identified as a global epidemic. Only that the manner in which the sub continent puts them down and how the west puts them down is being debated. You have a problem with the sub continent primitive uneducated way of killing women and highlighting that. Going as far as saying the death of women for domestic violence in the west is nothing to worry about because thats very 21st century.
 
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The numbers I gave you were for domestic abuse victims in the US, not accident fatalities. You even added suicides in the Pakistani column and I let it slide. Suicides are not added in the US numbers.

The problem has been identified as a global epidemic. Only that the manner in which the sub continent puts them down and how the west puts them down is being debated. You have a problem with the sub continent primitive uneducated way of killing women and highlighting that. Going as far as saying the death of women for domestic violence in the west is nothing to worry about because thats very 21st century.

You are putting words and notions in my mouth. I did not use words like "primitive" or modern or say that domestic abuse is OK. I only pointed out that all countries have the problem of domestic abuse, whereas honor killings is unique to the subcontinent - and since that is the topic of the thread, bringing in the issue of domestic abuse does not absolve us. That is why I am highlighting one and not the other - because the topic is about one and not the other, and not because one is primitive and one is 21rst century. I don't make such distinctions, that came from you.

As for "You even added sicides..." - I did not add anything, the article is not mine. I am only commenting on the horrible issue of socially sanctioned murder.
 
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Only when one accepts can one compare logically a crime that takes place everywhere! When one doesnt accept they only put 1 side of the story like OP...


I am saying if she is dead who is going to go report it that it was an honor killing and not an accidental death? Do you thing a random xyz is going to go report and then continue to go to court proceedings and with no evidence (as it doesnt happen in broad daylight everytime nor does it happen in front of witness nor does it happen where people can easily collect evidence nor do people actually announce it) so who is going to know, report and follow up ?

Sometimes family does, sometimes friends do...but isnt it the same in India? Why acting soo surprised and asking such questions?

That sometimes is 90% of the times? of course I am surprised (not really...because its Pakistan we are talking about).

and pathetic reasons given by you for something that goes unreported 90% of the time.

and, flaming on the OP? - nice way to push your head into the sand.
 
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That sometimes is 90% of the times? of course I am surprised (not really...because its Pakistan we are talking about).

and pathetic reasons given by you for something that goes unreported 90% of the time.
Nice way of putting it..shows you obsession...and not to mention blind eye attitude like nothing happens in India

and, flaming on the OP? - nice way to push your head into the sand.[/quote] Obsessed with an ostrich?
He said that the given figures were compiled from different news reports and clients coming to the helpline for help. No such data about crimes against women was available with ministries at provincial and federal level.


He claimed that the given data had only some 10 percent of the incidents in Pakistan.

Its an estimate may be more or less...no one really knows so throwing crap on something that cant be confirmed is foolish! And in the same breathe failing to see the same prob in their own country just gives you a double point on foolishness! :woot:
 
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Nice way of putting it..shows you obsession...and not to mention blind eye attitude like nothing happens in India

and, flaming on the OP? - nice way to push your head into the sand.
Obsessed with an ostrich?





Its an estimate may be more or less...no one really knows so throwing crap on something that cant be confirmed is foolish! And in the same breathe failing to see the same prob in their own country just gives you a double point on foolishness! :woot:[/quote]

You didnt read the next line? nobody carries any statistics....because it looks like nobody in Pakistan cares...isnt that already obvious? the organization did its own research because thats how pathetic the policing conditions are.

No, I said I am not surprised because I know the facts about the treatment of women in Pakland so there's nothing surprising.
 
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You are putting words and notions in my mouth. I did not use words like "primitive" or modern or say that domestic abuse is OK. I only pointed out that all countries have the problem of domestic abuse, whereas honor killings is unique to the subcontinent - and since that is the topic of the thread, bringing in the issue of domestic abuse does not absolve us. That is why I am highlighting one and not the other - because the topic is about one and not the other, and not because one is primitive and one is 21rst century. I don't make such distinctions, that came from you.

As for "You even added sicides..." - I did not add anything, the article is not mine. I am only commenting on the horrible issue of socially sanctioned murder.

1600 women killed is the number on the thread heading. So I am sure you made me read that number. Couldn't help myself, lets get back to discussing why you are correct in making us realize our problem while your countries problem is not a problem for this topic or necessary as it has broken free of these wayward tribal idiocies.

The topic is how many women die a year in Pakistan. There is a breakdown of how they die a couple of sentences in the article. How many deaths would you consider out of those to be out of sheer illiteracy and or honour killings and or socially sanctioned murder?
 
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You didnt read the next line? nobody carries any statistics....because it looks like nobody in Pakistan cares...isnt that already obvious? the organization did its own research because thats how pathetic the policing conditions are.
That is what the people in the organization are paid to do...collect data! If it was already collected why even have an organization to collect data and analyze? Oh yea you are Indian I am not surprised with such questions of derailing...
No, I said I am not surprised because I know the facts about the treatment of women in Pakland so there's nothing surprising.
Likewise I am not surprised with your posts
 
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That sometimes is 90% of the times? of course I am surprised (not really...because its Pakistan we are talking about).

and pathetic reasons given by you for something that goes unreported 90% of the time.

and, flaming on the OP? - nice way to push your head into the sand.

If you hear about the amount of female babies that are buried all across rural India then I am sure you will not be surprised either. The parents of the children don't usually report their crime 100% of the time. They feel its counter productive.
 
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Surprisingly you didnt post your side of the story:

OP-ED: Honour Killings – India’s Crying Shame
By Nupur Basu

Nupur Basu is a senior journalist, media educator and award-winning documentary film-maker. Her five independent documentaries include "No Country for Young Girls".

DOHA, Nov 30 2013 (IPS) - According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases a year of honour killings internationally comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

While traditionally occurring in villages and smaller towns in India, honour killings have been on the rise and are reported sporadically in the media. The double murder of a 14-year-old school girl and a 50-year-old domestic in a New Delhi suburb with its honour killing subtext has received unprecedented attention, and is perhaps urban India’s most hyped alleged honour killing.

Although the Talwars, the parents of the girl, were charged with the murders of their daughter Aarushi and their domestic help Hemraj, the ‘motive’ for the murders was attributed to honour killing. Special Central Bureau Judge Shyam Lal, while convicting the parents earlier this week, said the dentist couple had found their daughter and the help in an “objectionable position”.

The judgement, based on circumstantial evidence, has however left many unconvinced. But irrespective of what the truth is, the Aarushi case has shone the spotlight on honour killings.

“The social moorings of this case and its ramifications on India’s middle class could not have been lost on anyone,” observed Anubha Bhonsle, an anchor for CNN-IBN, in one of her programmes.

However, if the judiciary, through this verdict, is trying to drive home the message that there will be zero tolerance for honour killings regardless of how powerful the perpetrators are, the question that will come up is whether the courts will apply the same rigour in some of the most gruesome cases of honour killings taking place in rural India, far from the gaze of television cameras.

Cases piling up

Some grisly cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23-year-old Dharmender Barak and 18-year-old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.
The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in the northern state of Haryana, were tortured, mutilated and killed in public view by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to elope. A friend the couple had confided in leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the cruelest manner. The police are treating the double murder as an honour crime.

In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19-year-old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her boyfriend and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

On Oct. 24, 2013, in another case from Haryana, a 15-year-old Muslim girl from Muzaffarnagar was banished to her uncle’s house to prevent her from seeing the boy she was in love with. Her uncle allegedly murdered her and buried her in Panchkula District.

While cases of honour killings continue to pile up, convictions are few and far between.

In July 2013, Arun Bandu Irkal from Yerwada in the western state of Maharashtra was served with a life sentence. In 2002, the accused had reportedly stabbed his 17-year-old daughter Yashodha 48 times with a pair of scissors for having an affair with a boy from another caste. She did not survive the attack.

The accused surrendered, then skipped bail and was finally re-arrested in 2011. The court convicted him this year for murdering his daughter. The court said “honour” was the motive behind the murder.

On Nov. 1, 2013, in Bhopal in the central state of Madhya Pradesh, a lower court announced a life term for 10 men in a case of honour killing. The men were accused of killing Amar Singh, the elder brother of Sawar Singh, who had allegedly eloped with Hema, the wife of Balbir Singh, one of the accused men.

The men went to Amar Singh’s house, questioned him about the couple’s whereabouts and then poured kerosene on him and set him on fire. He died of the burns.

New discourse

All these cases have led to a new discourse on legislation. Does India acutely need separate legislation on honour killings? A proposal to that effect has been made by a study carried out for the U.N. Population Fund (UNFPA) on gender laws.

Voices have also been raised to rein in the ‘khap panchayats’ or self-elected village councils made up of male village elders who perpetuate values that, in turn, covertly endorse these killings in the name of saving “the family’s honour”.

Like the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the khaps have attained notoriety by issuing diktats on dress code for women and demanding a ban on the use of cell phones by young girls and women.

In both rural and middle-class urban India, the onus for upholding family morality falls on the women in the family – the daughter, daughter-in-law, wife and mother. By daring to choose a life partner other than the one selected for her by her family, or by committing adultery, she violates the family’s honour. Both she and her lover can face death as a consequence.

Recently, a group of khap panchayats filed a document before the country’s highest court saying they had been wrongly charged for encouraging honour killings in rural India. Earlier, a women’s rights group, Shakti Vahini, had petitioned the Supreme Court to instruct the government to be more proactive when honour killings are carried out.

They blamed the khap panchayats for endorsing patriarchy, which they said reinforced the subjugation of women in society and the resultant honour killings.

Retribution for bringing shame

The court summoned 67 representatives of the khap panchayats to explain their role in honour killings. The representatives submitted a written reply, saying the responsibility for such killings did not lie with them but with the families who failed to prevent their daughters and sisters and wives from interacting with men, which resulted in shame and ostracism by the community.

They argued that women who feared their male relatives never committed such acts and therefore never had to face such consequences. In short, the khap panchayat representatives overtly defended honour killings.

But the problem of honour killings goes well beyond the shores of rural and urban India. They are common in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and Bangladesh also has honour killings or assaults in the form of ‘acid attacks’.

Acid attacks, torture, abductions and mutilations all come under this category of crime.

The problem is that in most countries, there is confusion about the definition of what constitutes an honour killing. This confusion often results in the victim failing to get justice. Many families report these killings as suicides and escape punishment under the law, according to international human rights and women’s groups.

According to U.N. statistics, the United Kingdom has 12 cases of honour killings every year, the majority of them among the Asian diaspora. Will countries abroad also have to legislate on honour killings if South Asian and West Asian men carry their patriarchy to foreign shores and murder women who break so-called “cultural norms”?

This year’s Emmy award for best documentary went to a film on honour killings in the UK. Banaz: A Love Story, directed by Deeyah Khan, is about the honour killing in south London of 20-year-old Banaz Mahmod who was murdered by her family in 2006.

‘Cancer of patriachy’

Mahmod’s Iraqi Kurd father and relatives felt she had brought shame to her family and community by leaving her husband, who was abusive and an alleged rapist. Mahmod had fallen in love with another man and ended up paying with her life. She was raped, strangled to death and her body was put in a suitcase.

Her father and uncle now face life sentences in UK jails. Two other men, who had to be extradited from Iraq by Scotland Yard, are also serving prison terms, for 20 years. By making these arrests and convictions test cases, the judiciary and law enforcement authorities hope they can deter families from such criminal acts against their female family members.

A case was recently reported where, after a long battle with the Australian immigration and refugee authorities, a couple, a Sikh and a backward caste Hindu who had married secretly in India in 2007, were granted asylum in the country. The couple had said their lives would be in danger if they had to return to India as they feared honour killing for having defied the caste system.

Even as the dust settles on the verdict for the Talwars in Delhi, it will be a while before Indian society really begins to digest the cancer of patriarchy manifested through honour killings. Like all social evils, unless society shuns these practices, the police and judiciary alone cannot save women who want to break free from arranged and abusive marriages.

The views expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect the editorial policy of Al Jazeera or IPS.

Published under an agreement with Al Jazeera.

OP-ED: Honour Killings - India's Crying Shame - Inter Press Service
@Oscar @Aeronaut @Hu Songshan Derailing thread, Off Topic, Thread already exists.
 
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How is it derailing? The article includes Pakistan too...Oh of course being Indian you didnt read the post! :tup:
Thread already exists on the article you posted and OP is solely on Pakistan, So just try to stay on topic and do not intent to divert the attention towards other topic. Thank You! :agree:

.Oh of course being Indian you didnt read the post! :tup:
Amazing, you were able to know whole 1.2 bln population just with my one post:disagree:. Truly Amazing.
 
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Thread already exists on the article you posted and OP is solely on Pakistan, So just try to stay on topic and do not intent to divert the attention towards other topic. Thank You! :agree:
No one is diverting...Sorry if your mentality states so...I just brought another question to the table...and if the article has been posted then why feel threatened? Quit derailing please!

Amazing, you were able to know whole 1.2 bln population just with my one post:disagree:. Truly Amazing.
I dont see 1.2 bn Indians on PDF..I just used your generalization methods...
 
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