14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose

[Solomon2]

So you don't know what your Talmud says? ''Or'' claiming it out of context. Talmud quotes count because when you generalize all Pakistanis, so will I from your religious texts.

It's not relevant because any intolerance you've cited, real or fictional, isn't what Jews are making of their lives or religion.

Who said we are not? We're taking them on militarily and intellectually, and that answers you previous two points.

Do you think you're doing an effective job of "taking them on" intellectually? Let alone confronting them politically?

Keep spinning lies! In black and white; I have NO, ZERO sympathy for the attackers families. My sympthies are totally with the 14 innocent persons families who have lost their loved ones. Again, show me ONE post I said otherwise!

Either your #555 was edited or I read it incorrectly, in which case you have my apologies.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion.

One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does not make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the IF-THEN of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".

So is the 'scholar' making the claim you're referring to or is the Quran, because you're comparing a claim by a particular scholar against 'Judaism'?

 

[Solomon2]

So is the 'scholar' making the claim you're referring to or is the Quran, because you're comparing a claim by a particular scholar against 'Judaism'?

I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not even close in comparison to Pakistanis here cheering on the deaths of Indian civilians or Indian soldiers at the hands of LET or Hizb cadres.

While distasteful, the two types of incidents are not identical - a distinction has to be made between attacks on combatants in an active conflict zone and non-combatants.

So would you say PA actions are wrong in FATA, Baluchistan or Karachi? . Also what kind of atrocities or military action did PakistanI forces commit that Pakistan ended up with thousands of terrorists?.

The only solution to these lunatics wielding weapons and do not hesitate blowing up innocent civilians..In this case disabled people is to hunt them down.

There's no soft approach to terrorists..The more soft governments become the more atrocities, the more brazen the terrorist attack.

You misunderstood my post - I argued that there is currently no significant advantage to India's 'joint terrorism force' proposal because it would only replicate existing military actions being undertaken under a different name. I did not suggest that current military or security operations in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, FATA, Balochistan or Karachi be terminated, just that India's proposal doesn't offer anything new and unique beyond the military actions already being undertaken.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?

I see a contradiction here
first you have decided or judged that the Scholar's narrative is the authentic and Islamic one
and then you put your hands up saying its not up to you to decide what is Islamic and what's not.

it seems that you are seeking controversy and have made up your mind that you will prefer a controversial view of Islam by someone rather than a reconciliatory one.


anyway carry on

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?

I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar and furthering research into the more troubling interpretations and translations of the Quran and Hadith. In response to that argument you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly).

Assuming the scholar you quoted is making that particular claim, does he not then fall into that category of 'traditional Islamic Scholars promoting a regressive and intolerant interpretation of Islam' that I argued needs to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars?

 

[Solomon2]

I see a contradiction here
first you have decided or judged that the Scholar's narrative is the authentic -

I never judged the scholar's narrative as authentic. I stated that "if it is...." and applied logic.

 

[VCheng]

The terrorists as they arrived in USA:

 

[Solomon2]

I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar -

Whereas I'm pointing out that IF the scholar is correct, THEN it's the belief that Islam is the one "true religion" that has to change for Islamic society to achieve tolerance. If there's room for different schools of Islamic thought, doesn't that imply there have to be different approaches to achieving tolerance as well?

you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly)

Rather cunning, isn't he? Don't his rhetorical questions and comparisons rule out forms of Islamic practice that would allow non-Muslim communities to grow in size or even remain stable, leaving the listener to conclude that prevention or compulsion - that is, force - must be used against non-Muslims and backsliders?

Think of it this way: you're traveling and there's a fork in the road leading three different ways. Your guide and companion says you can't take the first or second ways. He doesn't explicitly say to take the third way: he leaves you to conclude that the only way to go is the third way - or else turn back.

 

[Yahoooooo!]

San Bernardino Killers Took Target Practice In The Days Before Shootings

The FBI says both San Bernardino shooters honed their skills with target practice at gun ranges around the Los Angeles area before last week's attack. The FBI also believes that Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik had been radicalized for "quite some time," David Bowdich, of the FBI's Los Angeles office, said Monday.

"We do have evidence that both of the subjects participated in target practice in some ranges within the metro area or within the Los Angeles area," Bowdich said. "That target practice in one occasion was done within days of this event."

Bowdich also said that the FBI now believes that "both subjects were radicalized, and had been for quite some time."

He did not say how long the attackers had been radicalized or by whom, stressing that there is still no evidence that the shooters were connected to a terror group.

Bowdich also said that investigators had found enough material for 19 pipe bombs, not the 12 initially initially disclosed.

"Ultimately, it appears there are 19 pipes in that house that we have removed," he said.

Authorities are still trying to determine how the pair ended up with two assault-type rifles, that were purchased by a childhood friend of Farook. The other guns used in the attack were legally purchased by Farook.

 

[illusion8]

While distasteful, the two types of incidents are not identical - a distinction has to be made between attacks on combatants in an active conflict zone and non-combatants.

Jihad is an ugly conflict. .I don't see how disgracing Jihadis or their manufacturers is distasteful...that's the least one can do other than bomb the crap out of such countries.

You misunderstood my post - I argued that there is currently no significant advantage to India's 'joint terrorism force' proposal because it would only replicate existing military actions being undertaken under a different name. I did not suggest that current military or security operations in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, FATA, Balochistan or Karachi be terminated, just that India's proposal doesn't offer anything new and unique beyond the military actions already being undertaken.

A joint anti terrorism organisation isn't just military..its about countries joining together to share Intel, cooperate on anti terrorism, jointly take actions and impose sanctions on jihad spreading countries etc. No where does the proposal say that there has to be a joint military action...though a task force on UN lines would be desirable.

I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar and furthering research into the more troubling interpretations and translations of the Quran and Hadith. In response to that argument you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly).

Assuming the scholar you quoted is making that particular claim, does he not then fall into that category of 'traditional Islamic Scholars promoting a regressive and intolerant interpretation of Islam' that I argued needs to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars?

Sorry to butt in..But how does one make a distinction of who is the sahi scholar. .

zakir naik for example is a pseudo traitor to he land he belongs to...but he attracts millions of followers..The saving grace is he does not advocate jihad and killing of kafirs..and argues on Islamic points....but he promotes anti secularism and intolerance to other religions at a sub level..For example. He says exactly what solomon quoted "because Islam is the only true religion..Muslims have a right to build mosques in every country..While non Muslims cannot build their worship places or practice their religion in Muslim nations".

If the Indian government puts a lid on him..millions of Muslims and funnily, non Muslims will stand up against the government. .because technically he hasn't done anything wrong..

He is supposedly the biggest and most famous scholar for millions sunnis in India...and he is in the forefront to promote intolerance...In what one could describe as "soft jihad". There's no "reformist" Islamic scholar that stands up against his views.

Owaisi is one more political example who has millions of followers in India. .and he calls for killing of all non Muslims overtly.

I would assume that the few reformist Islamic scholars have probably tried their best already. ...many would have tried to reform over the decades and have been either called takfiri and put to death or have been ignored as heretics.

It's just getting worse.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Do you think you're doing an effective job of "taking them on" intellectually? Let alone confronting them politically?

Tell me what more can we do that we're not already doing? Terrorism in Pakistan has gone down, but it's still not finished. But we need to join hands with Christendom to finish off the khawarij ISIS/AQ, etc once and for all so we can all live in peace. This support can be intellectual, moral, etc, but we need to stop this madness. Too many lives have been lost to terrorism.

Either your #555 was edited

You know it wasn't edited. If it was, the post tells you that and your reply would show the original ''unedited'' post.

I read it incorrectly,

Yes you read it wrong.

in which case you have my apologies

Accepted.

 

[Assange]

That must have been a difficult decision to take. Leaving the religion doesn't change anything (except the life in the hereafter), discrimination moves to race, color, etc.

Actually that was really an easy decision...because I felt Islam to be more radical than ever now...And I am an activist who support women rights in my view Islam didn't provide women the freedom or equality to women equally when compared to men....

 

[VCheng]

Hmmm this looks photoshopped , if you look closely at the font for the urdu word "Naam" and the font used to print the name in urdu , then same for the next Urdu word "Jinis" and the word "Aurat" , the font is again diffrent , same for all other data

For those of us who have Pakistani ID card issued , please take them out and have look at the font on your ID cards for the font used for "Naam" and your name that appears in urdu in front of it and the font used for all other headings and filled texts , they will be the same font , not different font

Also they photoshop chap got the "Tarikh e Paidaish" ( date of birth ) format wrong its written July 13 , 1986 .. the ID cards issued by NADRA have DOB format as DD/MM/YYYY and not MM DD, YYYY

Just notice that the photo itself looks "raised" from the back ground , in the Pakistani ID card the picture is smoothly part of the main ID card body

Very poor attempt at photoshopping

No , the NDARA ID cards have identical fonts and have been identical since the time the computerized ID cards came , these cards are not hand generated

What you have posted is clearly photoshopped

View attachment 277357


One more addition , the place of signature where the word "Tashfeen" is written on white background is again wrong , the signature field on the cards seamless merges into the back ground

The NIC number shown is clearly traceable, Sir. Let NADRA confirm or deny it.

I can tell you that the picture of the ID card you posted is fake

It's not that I may be correct , I *AM* correct , this is a photoshopped copy

This copy of the ID card would not even pass off a basic check for authenticity

While its the official duty of NADRA to authenticate this , in what capacity are reuters and people like yourself circulating unverified and doctored copies of this id card ?

Here you go, Sirs:

"The copy of the Computerised National Identity Card (CNIC) of Tashfeen Malik, which surfaced in international publications and local social media, has been found to be authentic, according to the National Database and Registration Authority (NADRA) verification service."

Nadra records prove Tashfeen Malik's CNIC is not fake - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

 

[r0ck]

^

This is a badly worded article from Dawn (was expecting better from them to be honest).

The news article only states that the "CNIC number" seems to be in the name of the alleged lady as checked through NADRA's SMS service, that's all.

FWIW, it might be a totally different person with the same credentials.

It nowhere proves that the "CNIC copy" doing the rounds is authentic. IMO, that's a PS'd image.