14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I agree with most of what you say, except I think the problem is indeed organic to Islam and manifest in the content of the Quran and the person and methods of Muhammed.

I would argue that 'terrorism' and 'Islamic extremism' are now 'American problems' as much as they are 'Muslim problems' because many Americans are also Muslims. It's an American problem much like slavery and segregation were American problems (and to some degree racism continues to be) and required an ideological shift in society. The US (and Europe) cannot take a hands off approach to this.

There are many fine academic institutions and progressive Islamic Scholars in the US who could be funded through a variety of ways (government grants even, provided they are constitutional) to increase research and promote it globally.

Take the example of Laleh Bakhtiar: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/world/americas/25iht-koran.4.5017346.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[illusion8]

I'm not 'after Indians', it's 'Indians who are after Pakistan', something that your post here further validates really. How many of my posts were actually directed at Indians on this thread? You chose to pick my one single post, that criticized the rather sick and even 'celebratory' attitude of some Indians on this thread in flagging the Pakistan link, over the plethora of other posts criticizing current blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan as well as the overall need for reform in Islam. You're so caught up in blaming Pakistan that your diatribe bounces between blaming Pakistan, Islam and Muslims, pulling in acts that had nothing to do with Pakistan, and then goes back to blaming Pakistan. The patently dishonest intention being to essentially link Pakistan to everything.

And terrorism in India goes far beyond 'one man killed for eating beef' - terrorism in India involves the tens of thousands killed in violence in the North East, the tens of thousands killed in communal violence across India (including a thousand plus in the riots in Gujarat alone). India has plenty of homegrown terrorists and terrorism, Hindu and Muslim, and has played its own role in supporting terrorism in other countries, such as the LTTE in Sri Lanka, Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan etc.

Do you see Turks, Iranians, Arabs, Chinese or Russians flagging the Pakistan connection with the 'gusto and cheer' that Indian commentators do, on this forum and any other media platform? No - this is an almost exclusively an irrational Indian obsession with Pakistan.

As I said, it's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister.

That's because India and secondly Afghanistan are the biggest victims of Pakistan proxy groups for decades, so it's quite understandable when these nationalities display the most knowledge or contempt for jihad and proxies and how they are cultivated in Pakistan in the jihad infrastructure over the decades.

As for Turks, Chinese or Russians - millions of them have been killed or have been killed by them in unrelated circumstances that you describe about killings in India - That doesn't have anything to do with Islamic jihad.

It's just recently that the world has faced and has acknowledged the existence of the jihad network in the af pak region. .

Having said that, I commend your effort in painting a moderate picture about Islam. The issue is that you will have to repeat it again and again and again till the next terrorist attack which is around the corner. FBI were successful in stopping 60 terrorist attacks on American mainland just last year... There are thousands of potential jihadis planning the next terrorist attack...let's just hope the FBI are on the job everytime.

 

[Assange]

Now that this incident has been termed as terrorist attack Americans have started to point at Islam as a terror preaching religion and I have been defending Islam in twitter and Facebook though I am not an Muslim (now)....One thing in particular was very upsetting about these Americans they do not know to distinguish between Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism...they are just b@astards....All they know is Jesus...God damn...I would ask government of American to educate its citizens about this world and different cultures and religions before branding Islam as a terror preaching religion....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's because India and secondly Afghanistan are the biggest victims of Pakistan proxy groups for decades, so it's quite understandable when these nationalities display the most knowledge or contempt for jihad and proxies and how they are cultivated in Pakistan in the jihad infrastructure over the decades.

The issue I have is not with 'knowledge and contempt' for 'jihad and proxies', it is with the almost 'celebratory attitude' displayed by many Indians on this thread and other media platforms at the 'Pakistan link'.

And I'm not sure you understood the gist of my posts if you think that my arguments boil down to 'promoting a moderate picture of Islam' - I'm arguing for reforms.

 

[illusion8]

The issue I have is not with 'knowledge and contempt' for 'jihad and proxies', it is with the almost 'celebratory attitude' displayed by many Indians on this thread and other media platforms at the 'Pakistan link'.

And I'm not sure you understood the gist of my posts if you think that my arguments boil down to 'promoting a moderate picture of Islam' - I'm arguing for reforms.

More like "I told you so". But then..most of the posters were on point and I agree that it would be uncomfortable...truth, most times is bitter and pdf does provide that freedom for posters to speak their minds to some extent.

Reforms are badly needed for Islam's sake and for the sake of its followers..like most religions that brought change by themselves. .Islam needs reforms brought on by its followers..no one else can do anything about it other than put out the flames caused on their soil and Jack up monitoring and increase security at millions of public places.

A joint anti terrorism organization is the need of the hour. Indian leaders are advocating for it on the global stage. .just like they advocated the rise of terrorism earlier. Hopefully the world listens this time around.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

More like "I told you so". But then..most of the posters were on point and I agree that it would be uncomfortable...truth, most times is bitter and pdf does provide that freedom for posters to speak their minds to some extent.

It's not about 'truth' - no one is denying the nationality of one and the nationality of the parents of the other, but the Indian commentary goes beyond that. It's like some of you are almost 'hoping' that a terrorist attack occurs and is traced back to Pakistan. There is no constructive commentary or analysis, just some pretty sick 'cheering' and hate filled Pakistan bashing.

A joint anti terrorism organization is the need of the hour. Indian leaders are advocating for it on the global stage. .just like they advocated the rise of terrorism earlier. Hopefully the world listens this time around.

That is just a continuation of a military approach that is already ongoing and would have done nothing to prevent the current attack or the Paris attacks. Nor will such an approach accomplish anything in terms of addressing the ideological issues involved.

 

[Solomon2]

The sermon you quoted, focusing on the promotion of intolerance within Muslim societies, is just one example of how traditional Islamic Scholars have distorted and manipulated Islam to further their political control and patriarchal and regressive world view.

Is it for me to judge what's Islamic and what isn't? Rather, consider the argument of the scholar.

In formal logic, the contrapositive of the conditional statement, "If A then B" is "If not B, then not A". If the given conditional statement is true, then logically so is its contrapositive; they are equivalent.

The scholar argues that IF Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion, THEN others shouldn't be tolerated. If you don't like his conclusion, just re-state what the scholar says as the equivalent contrapositive: if you want tolerance, then you also make the statement that Islam is not the only true religion.

Now when did I say that? Step back from your hate filled eyes and read properly. My sympathies are TOTALLY, and COMPLETELY with the 14 innocent victims families who were murdered unjustly.

I think people can read what you wrote and judge from that.

P.S Don't play politics at the death of innocent people. This is not the time nor the place for you to play your Hasbrara trash!

It was you who invoked Jewish stuff. And it appears this was very much on the mind of the shooters:

...Rizwan why he did what he did?

"I do not know. I despair and I do not understand. He had everything: earning $ 70,000 a year, more than 20,000 of overtime, a house, a daughter of six months, was the master to earn more. He was fond of mechanics, like me. He studied environmental engineering because there was no work, but its fun were the cars. In his spare time was a mechanic, in his garage. I do not know, I can not give me peace. Maybe if I were at home I would have found out and stopped. "

She had not noticed that accumulated weapons?

"Once I saw he had a gun, and I was angry: in 45 years of the United States - I shouted - I never had a weapon. He shrugged and said, worse for you. "

Never were speaking of terrorism, Isis?

"Sure. And who does not talk about today? He said he shared the ideology of Al Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and it was fixed with Israel. "

What does it mean?

"I kept telling him always: stay calm, be patient, two years Israel will no longer exist. Geopolitics is changing: Russia, China, America too, nobody wants the Jews there. Li will report in Ukraine. What good fight? We have done that and we lost. Israel is not fighting with weapons, but with politics. He, however, nothing was fixed. "

Fixed on what?

"She was angry with Israel."

He had contacts with terrorists abroad?...​

You see, @Azad-Kashmiri, once one denies facts, logic, and justice - all of which are necessary to embrace Israel-hatred - then one is capable of doing just about any evil to anyone. A society which promotes Israel-hatred - as Pakistan is, by diktat of its Establishment - digs its own grave, as well as the grave of others.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is it for me to judge what's Islamic and what isn't? Rather, consider the argument of the scholar.

In formal logic, the contrapositive of the conditional statement, "If A then B" is "If not B, then not A". If the given conditional statement is true, then logically so is its contrapositive; they are equivalent.

The scholar argues that IF Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion, THEN others shouldn't be tolerated. If you don't like his conclusion, just re-state what the scholar says as the equivalent contrapositive: if you want tolerance, then you also make the statement that Islam is not the only true religion.

Before I get into a detailed response, do you agree that your argument is equally applicable to Judaism, Christianity and other organized religions?

 

[Solomon2]

Before I get into a detailed response, do you agree that your argument is equally applicable to Judaism, Christianity and other organized religions?

My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion.

One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does not make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the IF-THEN of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".

 

[CENTCOM]

The details about the suspects involved in the San Bernardino, CA shootings continue to emerge as the investigation continues. The deadliest mass shooting in the U.S. in the past three years has left the nation shocked and saddened. As the nation continues to recover from this horrific act of violence, the people are remembering the victims’ by holding vigils throughout the country. Our thoughts and prayers are also with the victims’ families and friends. It is simply hard to imagine what the loved ones are going through at the moment. We pray that they find the strength to deal with this tragedy and get through this difficult time.

You can go to the link below and see a composite photo of all 14 victims from the San Bernardino shooting rampage.

San Bernardino shooting victims: Who they were - LA Times

The support has also poured in from across the world. This is what the Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry said:

“We offer sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims in this act of terrorism. Our thoughts, prayers and deepest sympathies are with those who have been injured in the incident. We sincerely wish them an early recovery from their physical and mental trauma.”

President Obama said: "Let's not forget that freedom is more powerful than fear. That we have always met challenges, whether war or depression, natural disasters or terrorist attacks, by coming together around our common ideals as one nation and one people."

Ali Khan
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM

 

[pakdefender]

My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion.

One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does not make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the IF-THEN of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".

but Judaism narrative does state that 3000 years ago there was mass exodus from areas that make up the present day Israeli state.

3000 years is long time ago and the face of the land changes but as a result of holding on to the narrative of the exodus and the return , the Israeli state use violence and steal lands as and when it likes

don't you think this narrative is problematic too and needs reform ?

 

[illusion8]

It's not about 'truth' - no one is denying the nationality of one and the nationality of the parents of the other, but the Indian commentary goes beyond that. It's like some of you are almost 'hoping' that a terrorist attack occurs and is traced back to Pakistan. There is no constructive commentary or analysis, just some pretty sick 'cheering' and hate filled Pakistan bashing.

Not even close in comparison to Pakistanis here cheering on the deaths of Indian civilians or Indian soldiers at the hands of LET or Hizb cadres.

That is just a continuation of a military approach that is already ongoing and would have done nothing to prevent the current attack or the Paris attacks. Nor will such an approach accomplish anything in terms of addressing the ideological issues involved.

So would you say PA actions are wrong in FATA, Baluchistan or Karachi? . Also what kind of atrocities or military action did PakistanI forces commit that Pakistan ended up with thousands of terrorists?.

The only solution to these lunatics wielding weapons and do not hesitate blowing up innocent civilians..In this case disabled people is to hunt them down.

There's no soft approach to terrorists..The more soft governments become the more atrocities, the more brazen the terrorist attack.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

It was you who invoked Jewish stuff. And it appears this was very much on the mind of the shooters:

I invoked it because you called all Pakistanis corrupt, hence I quoted the Talmud. Pot calling the kettle black.

As for all the trash you posted about the murderers motives, they can NEVER be justified Islamically. It is HARAM to kill innocent people; the civilians do not bare the burden of others.

So keep spinning your lies and if you want to debate me on Islamical law you're most welcome. I'm not interested in what the 'dogs of hell' the khawrij (ISIS/AQ/TTP, etc) do or what their fake caliph and the UN-ISLAMIC STATE does! They are barbarians, a CULT and our nabi as'salaathu was'salaam told us how to deal with them; KILL THEM!

I think people can read what you wrote and judge from that.

Yes they can! It proves you're a LIAR! Show me where I've said the victims are not the 14 murdered? Show me 1 post?

I am not an Muslim (now)....

That must have been a difficult decision to take. Leaving the religion doesn't change anything (except the life in the hereafter), discrimination moves to race, color, etc.

 

[Solomon2]

but Judaism narrative does state that -

There's no need to go back in time more than a hundred years. The Ottoman Caliph enjoined upon his departing subjects and the League of Nations set up the Mandate of Palestine with the call for Jews to closely settle the area while preserving Arab and Jewish civil and property rights; Jews bought land from Arabs legally or settled on the remaining land granted them by the Caliph after the British chopped off 70% to become Jordan from where the Arabs then expelled the Jews; the Arabs told themselves they could take the Jews money in Mandate Palestine and then kill the Jews and regain the land they sold or wasn't theirs once the British departed. As the Brits left the Arabs decided to go to war and the Jews did what they had to to protect Jews' lives. That didn't involve massacring Arabs but defeating Arab arms and creating a defensible state to protect the lives of the citizenry.

I invoked it because you called all Pakistanis corrupt, hence I quoted the Talmud. Pot calling the kettle black.

Made-up or out-of-context Talmud quotes don't count.

As for all the trash you posted about the murderers motives, they can NEVER be justified Islamically. It is HARAM to kill innocent people; the civilians do not bare the burden of others.

That can be shown by prosecuting the perpetrators of violence against innocents, especially crimes committed by Muslims against non-Muslims. I presume you're familiar with Pakistan's record in this regard.

So keep spinning your lies and if you want to debate me on Islamical law you're most welcome.

As a non-Muslim I don't think it's up to me to determine what's "Islamical law" and what's not - though I see nothing wrong with asking questions and applying logic and reasoning to others' statements of such.

I'm not interested in what the 'dogs of hell' the khawrij (ISIS/AQ/TTP, etc) do or what their fake caliph and the UN-ISLAMIC STATE does! They are barbarians, a CULT and our nabi as'salaathu was'salaam told us how to deal with them; KILL THEM!

Why can't you find the strength to do so yourselves?

Show me where I've said the victims are not the 14 murdered?

Red herring. The point is that you called upon people to sympathize with the perps' families, not the families of the victims. In the case of the husband, his father claims he tried to steer him away from violence by invoking the vision that Israel's demise was imminent and would be crafted by others. Why have sympathies for a man who attempts to deter murder by invoking dreams of genocide?

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Made-up or out-of-context Talmud quotes don't count.

So you don't know what your Talmud says? ''Or'' claiming it out of context. Talmud quotes count because when you generalize all Pakistanis, so will I from your religious texts.

Why can't you find the strength to do so yourselves?

Who said we are not? We're taking them on militarily and intellectually, and that answers you previous two points.

Red herring. The point is that you called upon people to sympathize with the perps' families, not the families of the victims. In the case of the husband, his father claims he tried to steer him away from violence by invoking the vision that Israel's demise was imminent and would be crafted by others. Why have sympathies for a man who attempts to deter murder by invoking dreams of genocide?

Keep spinning lies! In black and white; I have NO, ZERO sympathy for the attackers families. My sympthies are totally with the 14 innocent persons families who have lost their loved ones.

Again, show me ONE post I said otherwise! Surely with all your skills obtained at the Hasbra dept, you can spin 1 lie?