10 most Westoxified countries in Asia?

[vostok]

Do you mean -1963 or the present day? If 1963 can I toss in Cuba then?

I believe Americans presence in Turkey started in 50's.

You seem to be fixated that values go hand in hand with prosperity. The Chinese values are very different than ours and they have become successful. My initial statement was maybe you should emulate them at least. You seem to be too stubborn to see that.

We will figure out what to do by ourselves. And you deal with your own problems. Although, honestly, I do not mind the restoration of the power of the Communist Party in the USSR, as thay do in China. It seems to me that you do not understand that people do not like when someone comes and tries to teach them how to live. Even if this someone is richer.

 

[Cthulhu]

You should put Iran on the top.

 

[wiseone2]

Germany is an occupied country, essentially a US colony. That is, Germany is in situation of continuous and never-ending attack since 1945. It is impossible to be simultaneously an occupied and independent country. These are contradictory and incompatible concepts.

US presence in Germany is down to 30,000
you do not control a country 80 million with 30,000

 

[DejanSRB]

This is logical. I also do not consider Russia as part of the West. It was the USSR the archenemy of the Western Empires and colonialism in the 20th century.

Brother,

How 70 years of USSR can dominate more then a 1000 years of pre-communist Russia?
When you ask a non - Russian to give you something he/she likes about Russia. They will told you about Russian literature, Russian composers, architeture, and majority of these things are made in pre revolutionary Russia.
On other hand Soviet union made greater contribution in science and education but also in ordinary life of citizen.

So, I think that Russians will always be European, not just another European nation, but one of the pillars of our civilization.

That all US propaganda, to made you alien to Europe, to create final cut between Russia and rest of Europe.
Dont forget that Euler, greatest mathematician of second millenium, made himself Russian, Voltaire in his talks with Catharine the Great, show affinity towards Russia. http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/b...re-s-encounter-with-czars.html?pagewanted=all

Thats what Americans want. To make Russians Asians. And to make your civilization exotic and non European like some non existing civilization like Australia and Canada. To put you on periphery of cultural heart of the world.

 

[wiseone2]

He has an old mindset. He doesn't realize one of the reasons the US is high profile in Europe is to maintain unity and keep it peaceful. They have been at each others throats for centuries and have drawn us in twice for major wars that killed 10's of millions. We have no intention of being brought in for a third. Things have been quiet now since 1945 (almost 75 years) and we want to keep it that way. If he thinks we are there to invade Russia he's being stupid.

Like he really has some sympathy for Germany. I suppose he'd rather us never to have been there so they could both go at it for round 3. He ought to be thankful we are there.

American presence in Europe is low key. It is falling. American troops in Europe could not threaten Russia.
the only thing I will grant you is that Russians do have valid gripes about NATO eastward expansion.

 

[vostok]

Brother,

How 70 years of USSR can dominate more then a 1000 years of pre-communist Russia?
When you ask a non - Russian to give you something he/she likes about Russia. They will told you about Russian literature, Russian composers, architeture, and majority of these things are made in pre revolutionary Russia.
On other hand Soviet union made greater contribution in science and education but also in ordinary life of citizen.

So, I think that Russians will always be European, not just another European nation, but one of the pillars of our civilization.

That all US propaganda, to made you alien to Europe, to create final cut between Russia and rest of Europe.
Dont forget that Euler, greatest mathematician of second millenium, made himself Russian, Voltaire in his talks with Catharine the Great, show affinity towards Russia. http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/b...re-s-encounter-with-czars.html?pagewanted=all

Thats what Americans want. To make Russians Asians. And to make your civilization exotic and non European like some non existing civilization like Australia and Canada. To put you on periphery of cultural heart of the world.

I consider Russia as non-Western country only in political sense. We are Europeans by race, culture and religion but we are not part of Western World in its today American definition. After all, Americans are not Europeans, Canadians and Australians are not Europeans, but they are part of the West.

 

[vostok]

US presence in Germany is down to 30,000
you do not control a country 80 million with 30,000

Why not? Sometimes you do not neeed army at all to control another state. Germany was occupied in 1945. And despite the full withdrawal of Soviet troops, the Americans are still there.

 

[wiseone2]

Why not? Sometimes you do not neeed army at all to control another state. Germany was occupied in 1945. And despite the full withdrawal of Soviet troops, the Americans are still there.

It is true that you do not need army to control another state. Germany is not controlled by USA. Germany said no to 2002 Iraq war. To the degree Germany supports USA. It is mutual self-interest.

American forces in Germany spend more time fighting in the Middle East.
when was the last time american troops fought in Europe ? Yugoslavia civil war

 

[vostok]

It is true that you do not need army to control another state. Germany is not controlled by USA. Germany said no to 2002 Iraq war. To the degree Germany supports USA. It is mutual self-interest.

American forces in Germany spend more time fighting in the Middle East.
when was the last time american troops fought in Europe ? Yugoslavia civil war

The fact that German troops are not involved in all American wars is not a sign that the US has not occupied Germany. The GDR army also did not participate in the Soviet war in Afghanistan.
Look, Germany was occupied in 1945 by France, Britain, USA and USSR. Now only American troops remained there (and a bit British, I think). The lion's share of German gold is stored in the US and the process of return is very slow. That is - Germany is in situation of occupation since 1945 and when it will be over - no one knows.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

The lion's share of German gold is stored in the US and the process of return is very slow..

That's a dumb assertion. The New York Fed's gold repository is holding onto the partial gold reserves of almost 50 countries...540,000 gold bars. 98% of the gold there is foreign owned. You think all of them are occupied? It's been held there free of charge since around WW1 because countries don't want it stolen by invading forces (or corrupt dictators). Germany wasn't the first or the last to have their gold held there.

Yes, countries like Germany have started shipping it back. It's their gold they can do what they want with it.


Germany reclaims gold hidden from Soviets in New York vaults
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/10/investing/germany-gold-reserves-foreign-new-york/index.html

"...But it's also a recognition that times have changed: Germans are no longer worried about preventing their gold reserves from falling under Soviet control -- a real fear during the Cold War."

Other "occupied" countries moving some of their gold back:
Switzerland
Austria
Netherlands
Belgium

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Your English is excellent. I must say that your posts are always very incisive and display a intellect that I hope takes you to do great things. I have no idea if you are a student and if so what subject your doing. do tell us please.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm studying political science. My main focus is on MENA region, Turkey, Germany, Turkish diaspora and Balkan countries.

Almost all the points you make are valid. Just want to qualify few comments. You mentioned the Greeks. Frankly I have always considered the Greeks to be a Levantine peoples. Their entire interaction in most of history has been with Anatolia, Levant and Egypt. To underline the "look east" posture that Alexander chose to head east and ended up marking his empire in what is now Pakistan.
What has happened is Western Europe did very well in the last 500 years and needed a ancient civilization that they could latch on to to garner a feeling of pedigree. Something like how Blacks in America clutch at ancient Egypt as a starting point for Black history in order to embelish their culture.

Yes. Today large sections of the Greek people feel like they have not only lost money and economic credibility but also the most important part of their identity to the Germans. It's like the children of the Barbaric German tribes are now closer to the ideals of the heroic ancient Greeks than the modern Greek people. A societal malfunction of significant extent in the Greek history. Sometimes they try to present this economic and social catastrophe in Greece as a long-term effect of the Ottoman rule but than again the question rises why the Turkish state is working fairly well in comparison to most Eastern European, African, Asian and American states? Why aren't Bulgarians bankrupt but Greeks are?

In 1849, patience with heavily indebted Greece began to run thin in the southern German Kingdom of Bavaria.

"You will certainly not want me to lose the larger part of my own capital because of having saved Greece," King Ludwig wrote in April that year to his son Otto, the Bavarian prince who became the unlikely first monarch of Greece.

"Couldn't you pay back the interest on the loan at least.... things are becoming impossible for your mother and your siblings."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-greece-otto-idUSTRE79H1DD20111018

Prior to the Greek independence, the Greek identity was only based on being an Orthodox Christian within the Ottoman Empire. The German Bavarian monarchy and mostly German-speaking philhellenes introduced the modern Greek identity as a continuation of the Ancient Greek history. Why is this important? Because it shows that imitating or claiming a glorious past doesn't change anything in reality.

Japanese, Turks, Chinese etc. once accepted the Western world as the best role model but all of them have developed their different interpretation of the Western concept since the process of "Westernization" has started. Do you think that this is not possible in case of Pakistan? Actually, the term "Westernization" might be wrong. What we are demanding are universal democratic values. By using the term "Western", I am referring to the point that certain parts of the Western world are having the best "phrased" version of a social contract.

And Marxism was cultivated in the womb of the Western world - London. Karl Marx's entire thoughts are based on his understanding of the socio-economic forces he saw playing out in Western Europe. It was the dark, dirt industrial cities of Western Europe with millions of ppor workers slaving away in miserable conditions that gave Marx the impetus behind his work. In that sense is a Western "religion" which has been exported to China, North Korea etc

They try to distinguish between "Western Marxism" and "Eastern Marxism" (Soviet Union) but yet these ideological factions are two sides of one coin.

And kediksen I am thinking of taking a holday in Turkey next year. If you have any suggestions please let me know. This is family holiday so keep that in mind. No drinking or clubbing etc.

Northeast Turkey, Black Sea Cost. From that region, you can also visit Georgia/Batum.

 

[venu309]

The guys is a christian and well respected commedian in is time, its unlike majority of chinese ppl which take a western name in china and abroad.

I'm sorry, but Indian actor Johnnie Walker was a Muslim and his name was Badruddin Jamaluddin Kazi. He adopted the stage name Johnnie Walker because the first Bollywood role he received was that of a drunk.