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Can you provide an image of Tufail's story on the Shams kills? The book is not available in the United States. Thank you. PS: to your observation, then why do other people credit Schames with the kills including the same PAF Official records???? In the end it does not matter...

Correct: it is the NATO designation for the MiG-15. But poster AliFarooq was not referring to a plane - he called the person who he was dealing with a "fagget".......

I am sorry Dreamer, but the book you quoted does not have this Shams as the famous Shams - Lon Nordeen clearly quotes Flt. Lt. Schames as the pilot on the 4th of December. Neither does Hali, and neither do other sources, including MuradK(who credited Schames and then said it was Shams) as I have...

Anyone know how to get copies of the journal going back to the 60's and 70's?

Oh you think he meant "faggot"??? In that case, may I humbly suggest to poster "AliFarooq" who hopes to be an officer in the Pakistan Air Force that the first time he encounters a difficulty, calling the other guy a homosexual, is perhaps not appropriate.... Perhaps AliFarooq may consider...

What is a "fagget"?

I have sent you your answer....:cheers:

Oh, well...I guess it was the thought that counted...

I am not sure where you felt that I was offended....I am defending the capability of the MiG 21 design(understand this subtlety: the DESIGN is great and can be used in modern combat as per the Red Flag presentation - the MiG 21 that is NOT upgraded is certainly at a disadvantage - the UPGRADED...

Gentlemen: Do NOT underestimate the Bison.:cheers: Please visit the thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/15936-real-red-flag-facts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation-15.html and pay close attention to the presenter Fornuff who is very complimentary of the Bison...

No - Good old Karachi

Nope. karachi

Nope. Karachi.

In part I, Fornuff mentions "4477 TES" - this was a MiG "exploitation" program run out of Tonopah, NV since 1974, now discontinued and declassified in 1989, and is detailed in a remarkable book "Red Eagles" by Steven Davies. I am reading it right now and it is a great description of how the...

ABDUL MAJEED KHAN Lodhi. Great friend of Air Marshal Jamal Ahmad Khan. Died in January of 2000 (if I recall correctly, maybe 2001) and is buried in Cranbury, NJ.

Jabar, my friend, I await those photos..........:pakistan::cheers:

Thank you for saying so - but (I am NOT being humble here) I know NOTHING. I just take an interest in our air warriors. I do believe they have done a professional job, more often than not, whenever called upon (despite whatever was thrown at them which in the case of India, was about 10 times...

PAF "Early" Pilots : north american | 1984 | 0797 | Flight Archive

Part of me was hoping that this would be a photograph of Afzal, Afzaal, Shams, Schames, Dilawar, Shamshad, Gul, SM Ahmad, (obviously it does not have PM Qureshi) and the rest, but maybe somebody else has a group photo of the December 1971 'crew'.......

Thank you- of course NOW you have to tell us who is who.....:yahoo::yes4: