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excellent article, close to ground realitites:

Yes, we love you too- Hindustan Times

India’s attitude towards Pakistan has changed from being patronising to apathetic. And it seems that Islamabad just can’t stomach that, writes Ashok Malik.

Advocates for greater civil society engagement between India and Pakistan have three essential arguments. First, they contend a vast majority of Pakistanis want friendship with India but are being thwarted by a small minority. Second, with Indian help Pakistani civil society and democracy can yet win the battle against Islamism. Third, a democratic and ‘mainstreamed’ Pakistan will guarantee amity.

To be fair, these ideas are not new. Till even the 1990s, it was fashionable to believe that once the Partition generation — or the children of the Partition generation, those with once-removed experiences of 1947 — moved on, India and Pakistan would be able to relate to one another as normal countries.

They would not necessarily love each other or always cooperate. The sense of competition would still be there, but not blind demonisation. In the media and in popular culture, at football matches and occasionally at diplomatic conferences, Britain and France still disparage each other. Neither side sees this, however, as a resurrection of Agincourt and Crecy.

How has this theory panned out? The past 10-odd years have changed Indian attitudes towards Pakistan. After the attack on Parliament in December 2001, India was livid and at one level ready for war. Troops were mobilised. For a whole host of reasons, India did not and could not go to war.

The conflict in Afghanistan; the presence of Western strategic assets and operatives within the borders of Pakistan; the understanding that a war would hurt the Indian economy and businesses that were becoming dependent on foreign capital and clients; the fact that the world could not watch two nuclear powers fight each other and not be expected to worry; the self-admission that India had no defined political objectives for a possible war, no blueprint for the future of Pakistan, no desire to effect regime change, no proxies in its polity — all of these were obstacles.

India realised its autonomy had been curtailed. That was the price for growing up — as an economy, as a nuclear power, as a nation. Fortuitously, it was in about 2002 that the Indian economy pressed on the accelerator. The following years transformed the Indian mind-space. They also left an impact on Indian perceptions of Pakistan.

Today, the western neighbour is treated more with condescension than antipathy. India is not Pakistan-obsessed in the manner of previous generations. Its middle classes see their country as in another league. They presume — correctly, incorrectly, exaggeratedly — that India is in a two-horse race with China, not in a two-mule derby with Pakistan.

The Pakistani military-strategic establishment obviously hasn’t taken to the diminution with equanimity. As it sees it, it can still blackmail India. In a part of the world too often associated with turbulence, chaos and false starts, India has invested effort to push itself onto the list of stable, ordered societies. By facilitating 26/11-type ‘urban guerrilla’ terrorist attacks, the Pakistani Praetorian Guard is convinced it can block India’s advance.

What of Pakistanis beyond the garrison town of Rawalpindi and the intrigues of compromised political elites in Islamabad? How does one approach middle Pakistan? For a start, it would be prudent to not confuse middle Pakistan — which is, one supposes, an amalgam of Punjab, the society that has been the precariously-designed nation’s sheet anchor, and of the more transactional Sindhis — with the English-speaking intellectuals who appear on TV, write op-eds and meet equally anguished Indians at goodwill seminars.

While well-spoken and earnest, the members of the itinerant Pakistani intelligentsia are not quite representative or in control of their country. They cannot realistically become the power establishment in Islamabad, displacing the army or even the politicians who, corrupt as they are, still represent sectional, provincial interests. It would be downright over-optimistic to believe Pakistani civil rights activists and liberals can actually influence policy on India. There is a difference between what is desirable and what is feasible. Pakistan is not about to throw up its own Vaclav Havel.

How then does India address Pakistan? There is no unanimous view. As Stephen Cohen once put it, “Indians are profoundly ambiguous as to Pakistan. Some would like to embrace Pakistan… Others, for example a friend of mine… wrote me a little note of all the reasons why a broken-up Pakistan would be in India’s interest… Others simply would like to ignore Pakistan. A shining India… [is] out of Pakistan’s league… India shouldn’t pay any attention to Pakistan.”

Cohen has summed up the predicament fairly accurately. There is, however, one important corollary. India is confused over the diagnosis but even if it decides on one, can it deliver any of the alternative courses of medicine? Bluntly put, does India have leverage within Pakistan to shore up its civilian institutions and help foster a middle class democracy? Conversely, does India have the covert capabilities and the hard-nosed will to dismember Pakistan if it decides that is the route to tranquillity in South Asia?

At the heart of the matter is a compelling verity India just does not want to admit: it has astonishingly little influence within Pakistan. This makes any proposal — war-mongering and demands to bomb the country or, at the other end of the spectrum, calls to promote democracy in Islamabad, patronise kebab shops in Lahore and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with civil society in Quetta and downtown Peshawar — a non-starter.

Ashok Malik is a Delhi-based political commentator.

malikashok@gmail.com
 
excellent article, close to ground realitites:

Yes, we love you too- Hindustan Times

India’s attitude towards Pakistan has changed from being patronising to apathetic. And it seems that Islamabad just can’t stomach that, writes Ashok Malik.

Advocates for greater civil society engagement between India and Pakistan have three essential arguments. First, they contend a vast majority of Pakistanis want friendship with India but are being thwarted by a small minority. Second, with Indian help Pakistani civil society and democracy can yet win the battle against Islamism. Third, a democratic and ‘mainstreamed’ Pakistan will guarantee amity.

To be fair, these ideas are not new. Till even the 1990s, it was fashionable to believe that once the Partition generation — or the children of the Partition generation, those with once-removed experiences of 1947 — moved on, India and Pakistan would be able to relate to one another as normal countries.

They would not necessarily love each other or always cooperate. The sense of competition would still be there, but not blind demonisation. In the media and in popular culture, at football matches and occasionally at diplomatic conferences, Britain and France still disparage each other. Neither side sees this, however, as a resurrection of Agincourt and Crecy.

How has this theory panned out? The past 10-odd years have changed Indian attitudes towards Pakistan. After the attack on Parliament in December 2001, India was livid and at one level ready for war. Troops were mobilised. For a whole host of reasons, India did not and could not go to war.

The conflict in Afghanistan; the presence of Western strategic assets and operatives within the borders of Pakistan; the understanding that a war would hurt the Indian economy and businesses that were becoming dependent on foreign capital and clients; the fact that the world could not watch two nuclear powers fight each other and not be expected to worry; the self-admission that India had no defined political objectives for a possible war, no blueprint for the future of Pakistan, no desire to effect regime change, no proxies in its polity — all of these were obstacles.

India realised its autonomy had been curtailed. That was the price for growing up — as an economy, as a nuclear power, as a nation. Fortuitously, it was in about 2002 that the Indian economy pressed on the accelerator. The following years transformed the Indian mind-space. They also left an impact on Indian perceptions of Pakistan.

Today, the western neighbour is treated more with condescension than antipathy. India is not Pakistan-obsessed in the manner of previous generations. Its middle classes see their country as in another league. They presume — correctly, incorrectly, exaggeratedly — that India is in a two-horse race with China, not in a two-mule derby with Pakistan.

The Pakistani military-strategic establishment obviously hasn’t taken to the diminution with equanimity. As it sees it, it can still blackmail India. In a part of the world too often associated with turbulence, chaos and false starts, India has invested effort to push itself onto the list of stable, ordered societies. By facilitating 26/11-type ‘urban guerrilla’ terrorist attacks, the Pakistani Praetorian Guard is convinced it can block India’s advance.

What of Pakistanis beyond the garrison town of Rawalpindi and the intrigues of compromised political elites in Islamabad? How does one approach middle Pakistan? For a start, it would be prudent to not confuse middle Pakistan — which is, one supposes, an amalgam of Punjab, the society that has been the precariously-designed nation’s sheet anchor, and of the more transactional Sindhis — with the English-speaking intellectuals who appear on TV, write op-eds and meet equally anguished Indians at goodwill seminars.

While well-spoken and earnest, the members of the itinerant Pakistani intelligentsia are not quite representative or in control of their country. They cannot realistically become the power establishment in Islamabad, displacing the army or even the politicians who, corrupt as they are, still represent sectional, provincial interests. It would be downright over-optimistic to believe Pakistani civil rights activists and liberals can actually influence policy on India. There is a difference between what is desirable and what is feasible. Pakistan is not about to throw up its own Vaclav Havel.

How then does India address Pakistan? There is no unanimous view. As Stephen Cohen once put it, “Indians are profoundly ambiguous as to Pakistan. Some would like to embrace Pakistan… Others, for example a friend of mine… wrote me a little note of all the reasons why a broken-up Pakistan would be in India’s interest… Others simply would like to ignore Pakistan. A shining India… [is] out of Pakistan’s league… India shouldn’t pay any attention to Pakistan.”

Cohen has summed up the predicament fairly accurately. There is, however, one important corollary. India is confused over the diagnosis but even if it decides on one, can it deliver any of the alternative courses of medicine? Bluntly put, does India have leverage within Pakistan to shore up its civilian institutions and help foster a middle class democracy? Conversely, does India have the covert capabilities and the hard-nosed will to dismember Pakistan if it decides that is the route to tranquillity in South Asia?

At the heart of the matter is a compelling verity India just does not want to admit: it has astonishingly little influence within Pakistan. This makes any proposal — war-mongering and demands to bomb the country or, at the other end of the spectrum, calls to promote democracy in Islamabad, patronise kebab shops in Lahore and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with civil society in Quetta and downtown Peshawar — a non-starter.

Ashok Malik is a Delhi-based political commentator.

malikashok@gmail.com
Everyone in india is good. But the only problem is in Pakistan. Happy now.
 
At the heart of the matter is a compelling verity India just does not want to admit: it has astonishingly little influence within Pakistan. This makes any proposal — war-mongering and demands to bomb the country or, at the other end of the spectrum, calls to promote democracy in Islamabad, patronise kebab shops in Lahore and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with civil society in Quetta and downtown Peshawar — a non-starter.

The part I agree with the most!
 
India just does not want to admit: it has astonishingly little influence within Pakistan.

Thats precisely what our people have to understand....you simply can not influence Pakistan by so called gestures....the best thing would be to let Pakistan Be.....and let Pakistanis handle Pakistan the way they want to.

India’s attitude towards Pakistan has changed from being patronising to apathetic.
But the question here is dos Pakistan want India to patronize Pakistan...and the simple answer is no....Pakistani ego is too big to digest at least India patronizing anything Pakistani.
 
But the question here is dos Pakistan want India to patronize Pakistan...and the simple answer is no....Pakistani ego is too big to digest at least India patronizing anything Pakistani.

Or is it the other way around??

Our singers go to india, and indian singers want them banned, your news channels are anti-pakistan and latest of all IPL...
 
Or is it the other way around??

Our singers go to india, and indian singers want them banned, your news channels are anti-pakistan and latest of all IPL...

Go to India how? Because they are invited, isn't that a sign of "Yes We love you too" or rather "We can love you too". :)
 
Or is it the other way around??

Our singers go to india, and indian singers want them banned, your news channels are anti-pakistan and latest of all IPL...

Well...Remember Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan...He has more songs recorded for Indian Films than for Pakistani Films and Dito for Rahat Fateh Ali Khan.... I respect Nusrat ...the most ..may his sole rest in peace.


Remember any India singer doing the same for Pakistan.......


IPL...Hmm...do you remember ...No Pakistani player played in IPL last year due to your Pakistani government refused them to play....but they were paid their dues........so this time Owners don't want Pakistani players.... Pakistan can't have all the luxuries of refusing at will...why should I put my money on a horse who is not going to run..because his owner refused him to run.
 
Or is it the other way around??

Our singers go to india, and indian singers want them banned, your news channels are anti-pakistan and latest of all IPL...

think its both ways.. At any point of time, there will be one incident of prominence but at the end of the day, our(both P and I) tolerence towards one another is very low
 
Well...Remember Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan...He has more songs recorded for Indian Films than for Pakistani Films and Dito for Rahat Fateh Ali Khan.... I respect Nusrat ...the most ..may his sole rest in peace.

Most his songs were from quwalis, which he sung in gathering in Pakistan, Sufism is a big thing in Pakistan.

Remember any India singer doing the same for Pakistan.......

Why would we, when we have such talented musicians at home.


IPL...Hmm...do you remember ...No Pakistani player played in IPL last year due to your Pakistani government refused them to play....but they were paid their dues........so this time Owners don't want Pakistani players.... Pakistan can't have all the luxuries of refusing at will...why should I put my money on a horse who is not going to run..because his owner refused him to run.[/QUOTE]

How can you assure that, what happened this year wouldn't have happened last year??

This time pakistan government gave them permission, so don't bring in the money and availability issue.
 
Why would we, when we have such talented musicians at home.

But your talent can't make money for themselves in Pakistan....so they come to India to make some money...... I am yet to see a Pakistani singer refusing to come to India


How can you assure that, what happened this year wouldn't have happened last year??

This time pakistan government gave them permission, so don't bring in the money and availability issue.

IPL contract was for 2 Years...and it expired last year....and do I need to remind you Pakistani Players were a part of IPL 1...... but Pakistani Government refused them to participate in IPL 2......so Owners decided why to stick there neck .....when they are not sure when Pakistan Government says ...NO More playing in India.....there goes his money in Drain.
 
But your talent can't make money for themselves in Pakistan....so they come to India to make some money...... I am yet to see a Pakistani singer refusing to come to India.

you will be surprised by the numbers.
As for those who do go, indians left them with no choice, theres a thread here and look at the number of Pakistani music copied by indians.

Its better to sell your talent, then to have it stolen.
 
IPL contract was for 2 Years...and it expired last year....and do I need to remind you Pakistani Players were a part of IPL 1...... but Pakistani Government refused them to participate in IPL 2......so Owners decided why to stick there neck .....when they are not sure when Pakistan Government says ...NO More playing in India.....there goes his money in Drain.

Players are paid according to the games they play/are available for.

If a player plays NO games or less than a quarter they will still be paid the minimum payment, which is 25% of their contracted amount.
 

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