Y. The big Why?

[Indus Pakistan]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Perhaps the issue lies more with how the narrative has been shaped, of Western Values completely replacing local values and culture. The fact that Western Culture and values are often represented in our own discourse as 'obscene and immoral' does not help.

Discourse in Pakistan around Western culture and values is often reduced to caricatures of the West - women running around naked or half naked, people having sex with everyone and their uncle/aunty, sky rocketing divorce rates (without any attempt to understand the factors behind higher divorce rates) etc. So when people try to argue in favor of 'Western values' such as respect, civic responsibilities, equal rights, religious freedom, tolerance etc. the discussion gets drowned in the noise we create around the aforementioned caricature of the West we've created to make ourselves look better in comparison.

I think at this point, given the amount of hostility that already exists, focusing on absorbing certain Western values (civic responsibility, tolerance, respect etc) is probably a better approach than expecting Pakistan to follow Turkey. The time for emulating Turkey is long gone, but we can still take a lot of good values the West has and incorporate them, especially by pointing out that Islam itself calls for much of the same.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

What you say is all factually correct but there is one big overriding factor. Pakistanis are very different to ALL other non-whites in that they find it EXTREMELY difficult and virtually impossible to adopt the Western culture and way of life. On the other hand, blacks and East Asians find it very easy to do so. Have no idea why this is though.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

One thing I need to qualify. By Western I mean the historical process that produced the modern world and the ideas it garnered. Communism for instance was born from this process. The other thing to note as a process it did not occur or is not owned by one country. But rather a broad change that took place Europe. Westernism is not a country or one idea. But a broad thrust which manifests itself in many countries. Thus you have differant itterations -

• American
• British
• German
• Italian
• Turkish
• Russian
• Canadian
• Australian
• Spanish
• Japanese
• Korean
• etc

Meaning each country applies it's own environment thus creating a unique experiance but still broadly part of the larger thrust. So America and Japan are not the same but still share lot of the broad contours of Westernism. Turkey and UK are not the same but again there is lot that they share which is why Turkey is now mostly taken as Euiropean country despite being Muslim majority.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Perhaps the issue lies more with how the narrative has been shaped, of Western Values completely replacing local values and culture. The fact that Western Culture and values are often represented in our own discourse as 'obscene and immoral' does not help.

Discourse in Pakistan around Western culture and values is often reduced to caricatures of the West - women running around naked or half naked, people having sex with everyone and their uncle/aunty, sky rocketing divorce rates (without any attempt to understand the factors behind higher divorce rates) etc. So when people try to argue in favor of 'Western values' such as respect, civic responsibilities, equal rights, religious freedom, tolerance etc. the discussion gets drowned in the noise we create around the aforementioned caricature of the West we've created to make ourselves look better in comparison.

I think at this point, given the amount of hostility that already exists, focusing on absorbing certain Western values (civic responsibility, tolerance, respect etc) is probably a better approach than expecting Pakistan to follow Turkey. The time for emulating Turkey is long gone, but we can still take a lot of good values the West has and incorporate them, especially by pointing out that Islam itself calls for much of the same.

Turks find it easy to adopt Western Culture because a large proportion of them are White just like Western people.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What you say is all factually correct but there is one big overriding factor. Pakistanis are very different to ALL other non-whites in that they find it EXTREMELY difficult and virtually impossible to adopt the Western culture and way of life. On the other hand, blacks and East Asians find it very easy to do so. Have no idea why this is though.

My friend it's not just Blacks. I am sure you have dealt with Turks. I have been to Istanbul and only thing I can say is they share more with London then Islamabad.

Turks find it easy to adopt Western Culture because a large proportion of them are White just like Western people.

I agree that is a factor but what about Chinese, Japanese and other East Asians who far more Western then Turks?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

One thing I need to qualify. By Western I mean the historical process that produced the modern world and the ideas it garnered. Communism for instance was born from this process. The other thing to note as a process it did not occur or is not owned by one country. But rather a broad change that took place Europe. Westernism is not a country or one idea. But a broad thrust which manifests itself in many countries. Thus you have differant itterations -

• American
• British
• German
• Italian
• Turkish
• Russian
• Canadian
• Australian
• Spanish
• Japanese
• Korean
• etc

Meaning each country applies it's own environment thus creating a unique experiance but still broadly part of the larger thrust. So America and Japan are not the same but still share lot of the broad contours of Westernism. Turkey and UK are not the same but again there is lot that they share which is why Turkey is now mostly taken as Euiropean country despite being Muslim majority.

We need a different model for Pakistan as it is virtually impossible to get Pakistani people to try to adopt Western values and culture wholesale.

 

[waz]

I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

• Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
• Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?

The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

Although a more detailed reply is needed the narrative of the evil, decadent West has been told for quite a while. It really took off during the Soviet war where we saw an influx of individuals, ideas etc which saw turning your nose up at anything western as something enlightening.
Of course we need to be carful , there are negative trends in the west which are now hurting their societies e.g. the decline in Christianity, the fall of the family unit, confusion of genders etc. But the narrative had been built up so much that it permeated through to fields of academic study. You take what you need, why was Pakistan doing so well in its early years? It wasn’t blighted by dogmatic thought.

Now add the poison of corruption which I believe is the biggest reason, and you have the current trend. Interestingly you had the figure heads of corruption be them politicians, religious leaders and even military personal sending their kids to the west to gain all the wholesome benefits. The irony is here that the sons and daughters of poor folk had to continue life as best as they could.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

My friend it's not just Blacks. I am sure you have dealt with Turks. I have been to Istanbul and only thing I can say is they share more with London then Islamabad.

I agree. But that's the thing, Pakistanis for whatever reason simply cannot adopt Western values, culture, way of life etc. Turks, Arabs, Iranians, East Asians, indians, blacks etc can but for whatever reason, we can't. Have no idea why this is so.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Discourse in Pakistan around Western culture and values is often reduced to caricatures of the West - women running around naked or half naked, people having sex with everyone and their uncle/aunty, sky rocketing divorce rates (without any attempt to understand the factors behind higher divorce rates) etc.

I agree with you there. They forget that lot of this is down to economics. Low divorce rates were function of lack of choice and options. As options and choices become available human being tend to start exercising them whether they are in Pakistan or America.

The time for emulating Turkey is long gone, but we can still take a lot of good values the West has and incorporate them, especially by pointing out that Islam itself calls for much of the same.

I believe this is what Imran Khan is trying to do. Using Islamnic metaphors to introduce modern ideas of progress.

 

[Norwegian]

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo?

Isn't this obvious? East Asians are not majority Muslim nations unike Pakistan @beijingwalker

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Simple answer - subcontinental manipulation of religion, turning what was always a straightforward direct relationship between man and God into a complex myriad of interlocutors, peers, swamis, false prophets and waqf boards.

Why this manipulation? Simple again - for men to acquire power over other men on a basis of pure hearsay and falsified merit. This has held us back at critical moments, while the examples you quoted (e.g. Japanese) were free from such societal shackles.

The Quaid understood all this.

Power and reward should come from genuine merit alone. This will encourage advancement in all walks of life. Religion obviously has a place of vast importance for Pakistan and I would never dream of having it any other way, but religiosity in itself should not determine political clout.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The irony is here that the sons and daughters of poor folk had to continue life as best as they could.

That is the bizzare thing. They give speeches about Islam, desi culture etc but then send their kids to USA, spend summers in London. But expect the masses to follow the other path.

 

[Norwegian]

One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey

Of course it applies to Turkey. Erdogan is reversing Ata Turks secularization of Turkey

 

[Indus Pakistan]

East Asians are not majority Muslim nations unike Pakistan

That is true but even Indian's are afflicted by this even if it is not as pronounced.