With Cold Response To UCAV Query, IAF Throws Weight Behind Indian Programme

[flanker143]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/with-cold-response-to-ucav-query-iaf.html


Following a totally flat response to its surprise June RFI for a fleet of UCAVs, the Indian Air Force is throwing its weight fully behind India's indigenous UCAV programme, codenamed AURA. The highly classified programme, completely unknown until it was reported on here on Livefist (follow-up posts here and here), is currently working to define a stealth flying-wing UCAV platform. I asked a senior IAF officer recently about the RFI and how it fit in with the AURA programme. He said, "The UCAV we operate will be an Indian platform. The RFI was an exercise to query the international market to get a sense of what is available in terms of platforms and technology. But the platform we finally induct will be an Indian one."

BAE Systems is the only company that confirmed to me that it had responded to the IAF's RFI. The company's India spokesperson Guy Douglas told me, "We did reply to the RFI... However, and as we stated in the RFI response, we are unlikely to be able to offer a realistic response to a UCAV RFP within the immediate timeframe. In July we unveiled Taranis, the world's first stealthy autonomous UCAV. As Taranis is still in the prototype phase of development it would be incorrect to suggest it is available to compete for this programme. Instead we have made it clear that we are very interested in working together with the DRDO, and other agencies and companies in India to help develop an indigenous UAS capability." Since there are no operational UCAV products anywhere on earth that fit the IAF's stated requirements, the IAF had been expecting responses, at the very least, like BAE's.

Dassault Aviation, which also received the RFI, decided not to respond, but is understood to have separately conveyed its openness in partnering India on the AURA programme, though this will have nothing to do with the nEUROn UCAV demonstrator programme. Companies that received the IAF's RFI, but chose not to respond, include Boeing, Lockeed-Martin, General Atomics and EADS. Israel's IAI and Russia's UAC also received the RFI, but did not confirm how or if they responded.

 

[Tshering22]

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: With Cold Response To UCAV Query, IAF Throws Weight Behind Indian Programme


Following a totally flat response to its surprise June RFI for a fleet of UCAVs, the Indian Air Force is throwing its weight fully behind India's indigenous UCAV programme, codenamed AURA. The highly classified programme, completely unknown until it was reported on here on Livefist (follow-up posts here and here), is currently working to define a stealth flying-wing UCAV platform. I asked a senior IAF officer recently about the RFI and how it fit in with the AURA programme. He said, "The UCAV we operate will be an Indian platform. The RFI was an exercise to query the international market to get a sense of what is available in terms of platforms and technology. But the platform we finally induct will be an Indian one."

BAE Systems is the only company that confirmed to me that it had responded to the IAF's RFI. The company's India spokesperson Guy Douglas told me, "We did reply to the RFI... However, and as we stated in the RFI response, we are unlikely to be able to offer a realistic response to a UCAV RFP within the immediate timeframe. In July we unveiled Taranis, the world's first stealthy autonomous UCAV. As Taranis is still in the prototype phase of development it would be incorrect to suggest it is available to compete for this programme. Instead we have made it clear that we are very interested in working together with the DRDO, and other agencies and companies in India to help develop an indigenous UAS capability." Since there are no operational UCAV products anywhere on earth that fit the IAF's stated requirements, the IAF had been expecting responses, at the very least, like BAE's.

Dassault Aviation, which also received the RFI, decided not to respond, but is understood to have separately conveyed its openness in partnering India on the AURA programme, though this will have nothing to do with the nEUROn UCAV demonstrator programme. Companies that received the IAF's RFI, but chose not to respond, include Boeing, Lockeed-Martin, General Atomics and EADS. Israel's IAI and Russia's UAC also received the RFI, but did not confirm how or if they responded.

Good initiative by IAF. I hope that whichever agencies are behind this AURA, bring it out on time. One question bud, why do we need a UCAV when we are already going for AMCA, PAKFA/FGFA, MMRCA and Tejas Mk1&2?

I mean we don't exactly have that much defense budget or overall cash to spend so massively and manage such a vast array of aerial platforms.

 

[Trichy]

@least this program is avl on time & get full support from IAF too @ each and every point..

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hi i have a question is rustom UAV inducted?also when did the para landing UAV programe start?

 

[Archie]

Well , rustam has been inducted in the arm forces with army and air force operating 10 each
however it is unlikely to be mass produced becoz air force , army and navy operate a fleet of over 200 israeli UAVs and rustam does not offer anything which these UAVs dont
I dont expect Rustam's indian induction to go beyond 50-60 aircrafts , maybe it will be exported as a lowcost alternative to israeli UAVs

 

[praveen007]

^^^^ hai. plz can u provide source that rustam uav is already inducted in forces.

 

[Dash]

Well , rustam has been inducted in the arm forces with army and air force operating 10 each
however it is unlikely to be mass produced becoz air force , army and navy operate a fleet of over 200 israeli UAVs and rustam does not offer anything which these UAVs dont
I dont expect Rustam's indian induction to go beyond 50-60 aircrafts , maybe it will be exported as a lowcost alternative to israeli UAVs

When did Rustom went into service??

 

[deckingraj]

Good initiative by IAF. I hope that whichever agencies are behind this AURA, bring it out on time. One question bud, why do we need a UCAV when we are already going for AMCA, PAKFA/FGFA, MMRCA and Tejas Mk1&2?

I mean we don't exactly have that much defense budget or overall cash to spend so massively and manage such a vast array of aerial platforms.

I am assuming you know the difference b/w unmanned and manned aircraft....Unmanned Combat Aircraft Vehicle - Unmanned combat air vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Predators role in Pak and AF is also well known.......In short one hell of a machine and you can keep your pilots safe....

 

[deckingraj]

When did Rustom went into service??

Yes even i am wondering...The below given list do not talk about Rustam as well...Can someone clarify please.???

Wapedia - Wiki: List of aircraft of the Indian Air Force

 

[IndianRobo]

Hi i have a question is rustom UAV inducted?also when did the para landing UAV programe start?

Rustom Has not been Inducted yet, so far 2 Technology demonstrators have been made out of Which TD-1 Crashed ....

 

[Dash]

Yes even i am wondering...The below given list do not talk about Rustam as well...Can someone clarify please.???

Wapedia - Wiki: List of aircraft of the Indian Air Force

It has not, it is still in TD phase, its long time till it goes into service.

 

[Tshering22]

I am assuming you know the difference b/w unmanned and manned aircraft....Unmanned Combat Aircraft Vehicle - Unmanned combat air vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Predators role in Pak and AF is also well known.......In short one hell of a machine and you can keep your pilots safe....

Dear bro, being from the relatively remote state of Sikkim doesn't make me that ignorant . I might be new to this forum but that's about it... new to this forum. .

I think we have sufficient UAVs right now and if you read my post, I am asking whether these UCAVS as mentioned in the article are financially viable owing to the massive amounts of funds that are being currently directed towards manned 4.5th and 5th gen fighters.

Knowing that we won't be getting more than 20-40 of these UCAVs max in the future since there's a lot of money being poured for other things, the financial viability of this UCAV is doubtful to me. Naturally since the design seems to be really awesome and cutting edge, a huge cost of RnD will be incurred in this: stealth coatings, the designing, structure, internal carrying capability etc.

And since it will be crores of rupees, we'd need IAF and possibly IN to order at least a 100 of them each to break even.

That's why I am expressing my doubt that IAF should re-think once more before embarking on such an ambitious platform. Remember that Tejas during 80s was a really really ambitious step for a developing country when even the Western manufacturers had just finished making what we were planning to build and we can see what all difficulties such as delays we had to face.

Let's hope IAF knows what it is doing. ADA and HAL seem to be having their hands full already. The AMCA has gotten the green-light, the basic trainer for IAF is already being considered as Ashok Baweja had challenged the IAF with that he could deliver these trainers in 4-5 years to IAF. Apart from this, the license manufacture of MRCA fighters, remaining Su-30 MKIs and launching production lines for Tejas seems to be lot of work.

Even the British and French who have already got working tech demonstrators, aren't sure about this technology. Also, their partnerships would not be peanuts as we all know when we compare with Israel. IAF should consider Israelis on this project as they're pioneers in unmanned flight technologies.

Let's hope that ACM Naik knows what he's doing. The previous ACM FH Major was not pleased with the quality of indigenous work and tacitly said this in his interview.

 

[deckingraj]

Dear bro, being from the relatively remote state of Sikkim doesn't make me that ignorant . I might be new to this forum but that's about it... new to this forum. .

Please accept my sincere apologies....It's just that from past couple of days few Indian brothers are criticizing every move and most of the logic is kiddish.....i thought you are one of them....So sorry!!!

I think we have sufficient UAVs right now and if you read my post, I am asking whether these UCAVS as mentioned in the article are financially viable owing to the massive amounts of funds that are being currently directed towards manned 4.5th and 5th gen fighters.

And that's why i gave you the example of US predators...See how effective they are in AF....As of now we lack this ability and coutries are moving towards this direction....We should also follow the same path....Such machines are Low cost and keep your pilots safe....Imagine a scenario where you want to get rid of some pig across the border but do not want to risk your pilot/plane or escalate using a missile....

Knowing that we won't be getting more than 20-40 of these UCAVs max in the future since there's a lot of money being poured for other things, the financial viability of this UCAV is doubtful to me. Naturally since the design seems to be really awesome and cutting edge, a huge cost of RnD will be incurred in this: stealth coatings, the designing, structure, internal carrying capability etc.

You are right however that's where the world is moving to...We better should get our hands on it at this time....

And since it will be crores of rupees, we'd need IAF and possibly IN to order at least a 100 of them each to break even.

So???

That's why I am expressing my doubt that IAF should re-think once more before embarking on such an ambitious platform. Remember that Tejas during 80s was a really really ambitious step for a developing country when even the Western manufacturers had just finished making what we were planning to build and we can see what all difficulties such as delays we had to face.

Two flaws up there...Delays in Tejas program was expected because our Aerospace Industry was very naive, we were low on budget and lot of technology denials were imposed on us.....Secondly just consider how important is Tejas going to be for us and how much knowledge that investment brought into our country regarsing aerodynamics....The future air-wars is all about stealth, unmanned flights and it is the best time for us to invest in such programs because

- Economy is doing fairly well
- Co-operation with west is at its best and improving further as we talk
- China is still considered as threat by western world and progress by New Delhi is not looked with suspision...Mind it this will not remain like this for very long....Jut like china the more we will grow militarily more the eye-browes will be raised....

Let's hope IAF knows what it is doing. ADA and HAL seem to be having their hands full already. The AMCA has gotten the green-light, the basic trainer for IAF is already being considered as Ashok Baweja had challenged the IAF with that he could deliver these trainers in 4-5 years to IAF. Apart from this, the license manufacture of MRCA fighters, remaining Su-30 MKIs and launching production lines for Tejas seems to be lot of work.

Yes you are right....However there can be various mitigation efforts that can be taken to solve this issue...Abandoning the program should be the worst choice...don't you think???

Even the British and French who have already got working tech demonstrators, aren't sure about this technology. Also, their partnerships would not be peanuts as we all know when we compare with Israel. IAF should consider Israelis on this project as they're pioneers in unmanned flight technologies.

Exactly that's the reason IAF issued RFP....Now there was luke warm response so the only choice left is indegenous effort....We cannot say that because no-one wants to help so lets abandon our desire to have UCAV..no??? B/W how do you know Israel or any other country help will not be seeked...Yes this is not going to be a JV however there are other way's help can be taken, no???

Let's hope that ACM Naik knows what he's doing. The previous ACM FH Major was not pleased with the quality of indigenous work and tacitly said this in his interview.

Quality of indigenous work will only improve if we keep working on it diligently....Perseverence has to be there....Look at china for that matter....Israelis would also have struggled before pioneering unmaaned flight technologies, no???

 

[Dash]

I think we have sufficient UAVs right now and if you read my post, I am asking whether these UCAVS as mentioned in the article are financially viable owing to the massive amounts of funds that are being currently directed towards manned 4.5th and 5th gen fighters.

We actually dont have any tactical UAV, not a proper high altitude, or medium altitude UAV that is indegeneous. The Heron is a good UAV, but its currently used to used only to take pictures only I guess as there is no proper datalink available, it is not networked with any of the direct battle field management station in real time scenario. But we have a 50 of these so good.

As far as UCAV is concerened, there is no funds as of now which is sanctioned from the govt, like the AMCA. Its still in the design and proposal phase. The funds will only come after LCA comes to a stable stage and AMCA is is in TD phase. Until then I dont think anybody will infuse money in this.

We are not even sure as to what would be the proportion of Indian and foreign component to be in it, needless to say we will have foreign components in it and that is what the RFI was for. Remember Dassult didnt respond to the RFI but wanted to be a partner, which means if they are involved they will also be involved in the design phase.

Even the British and French who have already got working tech demonstrators, aren't sure about this technology. Also, their partnerships would not be peanuts as we all know when we compare with Israel. IAF should consider Israelis on this project as they're pioneers in unmanned flight technologies.

Remember we had a discussion about asking Singapore and Israel partnering with us for AMCA?, and I and Sancho said, itss better for a UCAV??.

This is where you can do wonders if you ask BAE, Dassult or Israel to be a partner. and to say it will not be a cost effective is wrong.

By partnering you are first sharing the design R&D cost.
They can give us some tech that they are allowed to do, which we still dont have, remember DRDO initially said no country will share such high tech stuff with us, but still they can share some stuff which we would want to have.
By asking EU in partnering you are entering the fray of global market, which means more money!!!...

This perfectly makes business sense to me.

 

[Dash]

Hi Deckingraj -

Exactly that's the reason IAF issued RFP....Now there was luke warm response so the only choice left is indegenous effort....We cannot say that because no-one wants to help so lets abandon our desire to have UCAV..no??? B/W how do you know Israel or any other country help will not be seeked...Yes this is not going to be a JV however there are other way's help can be taken, no???

IAF has only issued RFI. iam sure you now understand the difference