Why not Make More Agosta 90B?

[flameboard]

Pakistan has the know how to build a submarine which puts it way ahead of most nations of the world. Currently Turkey is taking those designs and upgrading them.

Why can't Pakistan hold the Agosta submarine program as the JF-17 program by upgrading the design when needed and maybe even channelling the Turkish innovations to future made in Pakistan Agosta 90B subs.

If Pakistan were to have a large submarine fleet deployed all times of the year. It would definitely be a strong deterrent, and guarantee immense second strike capabilities.

I remember hearing about potential sales to Arab customers as well. You can't have those if you barely keep the production lines open. Pakistan has to market the products it can already make. Maybe even use politics to gain customers.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on why something like this hasn't happened, and how it can happen.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan has the know how to build a submarine which puts it way ahead of most nations of the world. Currently Turkey is taking those designs and upgrading them.

Why can't Pakistan hold the Agosta submarine program as the JF-17 program by upgrading the design when needed and maybe even channelling the Turkish innovations to future made in Pakistan Agosta 90B subs.

If Pakistan were to have a large submarine fleet deployed all times of the year. It would definitely be a strong deterrent, and guarantee immense second strike capabilities.

I remember hearing about potential sales to Arab customers as well. You can't have those if you barely keep the production lines open. Pakistan has to market the products it can already make. Maybe even use politics to gain customers.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on why something like this hasn't happened, and how it can happen.

Hi,

Pakistan's military establishment chose to have bad relationship with the french---. This is a decades old story and I have written about it occasionally---.

ToT is being misunderstood a lot by the pakistanis---. The purpose of the TOT is not to build a machine but to see and understand the building of the design and function of the machine in question. Once you learn and understand the engineering behind the construction and function of a machine---it makes it easier to under the utility---maintenance and upgradation of the machine---.

The TOT just does not MAGICALLY give the trade techniques to build an extremely advanced submarine of its day and age---.

That has been the MISCONCEPTION with the pakistanis for a long long time and this misconception needs to be corrected---.

Building a submarine is a decades old learning experience because the submarines operate in a totally different realm of this world not known to most of the public---.

So a basic and simple TOT option is not good enough for a machine of this scale and size---.

Now with the knowledge gained from this experience---would the PN shipyard be able to build some special needs subs---I would say absolutely---.

Next thing is that the submarine technology has advanced since the onset of the Agosta 90B---subs are more advanced---have more features and functions defensive and offensive capabilities---weapons systems and EW packages---.

So what do we benefit from this so called TOT---. Plainly and simply---we gained some knowledge that we did not know before---we understand the building and manufacturing process a lot more---we understand the problems and hurdles that come up during the build process and how to overcome them---we start to look at these project from the minds and eyes of a manufacturer rather than depot level over haul and servicing establishment---. We begin to understand why a certain thing is designed in a certain manner and the function and utility of that item---.

What Turkey is doing is something else---. Turkey has has modern EW and weapons systems to upgrade in the submarine including modern structural modification---.

Remember---the TOT is to build the HULL of the submarine and not the other baggage that comes with the submarine---like the equipment to fight the enemy---radars---torpedos---EW package counter measures etc etc etc---. Again these items are not a part of the TOT---.

 

[Kompromat]

We can build the hull, place a nuclear reactor in the boot and have Turkey deliver the sub systems, we have our own weapons to get integrated. @MastanKhan

 

[I S I]

We can build the hull, place a nuclear reactor in the boot and have Turkey deliver the sub systems, we have our own weapons to get integrated. @MastanKhan

It's not a cup cake recipe to build a miniature nuclear reactor. That too to power a submarine.

 

[jamal18]

It's not a cup cake recipe to build a miniature nuclear reactor. That too to power a submarine.

Put in a conventional diesel engine?

 

[khansaheeb]

Pakistan has the know how to build a submarine which puts it way ahead of most nations of the world. Currently Turkey is taking those designs and upgrading them.

Why can't Pakistan hold the Agosta submarine program as the JF-17 program by upgrading the design when needed and maybe even channelling the Turkish innovations to future made in Pakistan Agosta 90B subs.

If Pakistan were to have a large submarine fleet deployed all times of the year. It would definitely be a strong deterrent, and guarantee immense second strike capabilities.

I remember hearing about potential sales to Arab customers as well. You can't have those if you barely keep the production lines open. Pakistan has to market the products it can already make. Maybe even use politics to gain customers.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on why something like this hasn't happened, and how it can happen.

Because we need nuke subs, spending money on subs that are easily detectable is futile.

 

[flameboard]

It's not a cup cake recipe to build a miniature nuclear reactor. That too to power a submarine.

I agree with your point here, but I would also like to add that Pakistan does know how to build nuclear reactors and with some research and help from allies, a nuclear powered submarine could be under construction in a few years.

There have many cases when Pakistani engineers have come up with problems no one would help Pakistan solve, even when it comes to nuclear know-how

I also want to add that I think domestically built nuclear subs would be a long term goal for sure

 

[jamal18]

Because we need nuke subs, spending money on subs that are easily detectable is futile.

Sure? I think diesel subs are as silent as nuclear one, or even more so.

 

[MastanKhan]

We can build the hull, place a nuclear reactor in the boot and have Turkey deliver the sub systems, we have our own weapons to get integrated. @MastanKhan

Hi,

Promise less---deliver more---. Some thing a better left alone and not brought out---.

Because we need nuke subs, spending money on subs that are easily detectable is futile.

Hi,

It is actually the diesel subs that are very very difficult to find---.

 

[I S I]

I agree with your point here, but I would also like to add that Pakistan does know how to build nuclear reactors and with some research and help from allies, a nuclear powered submarine could be under construction in a few years.

There have many cases when Pakistani engineers have come up with problems no one would help Pakistan solve, even when it comes to nuclear know-how

I also want to add that I think domestically built nuclear subs would be a long term goal for sure

Nah. Too much R&D & waste of time for 1 or 2 subs 10y down the line. That too accounting 5y R&D(minimum) & 5y development of submarine. Better would be to buy it off the shelf from China & reverse engineer it or even better... Just ask Chinese to help us in getting self reliance in miniature reactors tech after buying the N subs off the shelf off course.

Put in a conventional diesel engine?

Maine Kab mana Kiya

 

[JohnWick]

Hi,

Promise less---deliver more---. Some thing a better left alone and not brought out---.



Hi,

It is actually the diesel subs that are very very difficult to find---.

Sir,
Typhoon class Russian submarines contain enough power to figjt with a continent.

 

[T-123456]

Pakistan has the know how to build a submarine which puts it way ahead of most nations of the world. Currently Turkey is taking those designs and upgrading them.

Why can't Pakistan hold the Agosta submarine program as the JF-17 program by upgrading the design when needed and maybe even channelling the Turkish innovations to future made in Pakistan Agosta 90B subs.

If Pakistan were to have a large submarine fleet deployed all times of the year. It would definitely be a strong deterrent, and guarantee immense second strike capabilities.

I remember hearing about potential sales to Arab customers as well. You can't have those if you barely keep the production lines open. Pakistan has to market the products it can already make. Maybe even use politics to gain customers.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on why something like this hasn't happened, and how it can happen.

Why would you want to build such a old design,if you do then do a modern design like the U 214,U216 or similar?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

The design is obsolete. The Agosta design dates back to the 1970s. Modern submarines are much more streamlined than Agosta.

 

[flameboard]

The design is obsolete. The Agosta design dates back to the 1970s. Modern submarines are much more streamlined than Agosta.

Good point I guess the thing to do is here is use the know how of making a submarine, pit some R&D into updating and put people to work. In the defence world if you’re not updating and building you are falling behind

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The design is obsolete. The Agosta design dates back to the 1970s. Modern submarines are much more streamlined than Agosta.

There is a difference between 70 & 90B.