Why nobody wanted to help Panjshir or take the Gamble - It was due to Pakistan red-lines

[H!TchHiker]

Lol...nothing with Pakistan ..it's just they don't want to go against Taliban directly ...that is ruling Afghanistan now

 

[PradoTLC]

I love this casual nuclear blackmail becoming part of Pakistani lingo. Works well for India's cause. @SQ8

we love india's impotence.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The first person who would have helped was India and icthing for it they would have intervened at the beat of heart but the only problem was that Pakistan set a red-line because it doesn't want anymore intervention in it's neighbouring country due to refugees and cause of economical crisis inside Pakistan and blocking her from a major central Asia connection and to the larger Eurasia.

Hence Pakistan's new redlines since the US left was no intervention in Afghanistan at all stance period and it started the Uzbekistan-Pakistan road project construction for trade purpose not even Russia want it Because it was not worth it colliding with Pakistan over her economic and stragetic interests in her backyard.

As for India it didn't want all her population centers flatten to the ground and radioactivated because of Afghanistan it was not worth the effort for the Indians and likewise for everybody in the region hence nobody bothered to intervene for Panjshir or Afghanistan it was blocked by Pakistan.

But Pakistan herself never intervened in Panjshir in any way or form but it only blocked any form of foreign intervention in Afghanistan in order for Afghanistan to gain peace and Pakistan in return gets her economy up and running including connection to central Asia. Pakistan's stragetic interests

the subject is interesting but India specfic reasoning is very weak.
If India saw benefit then it wouldve done everything to protect its Afghan investment.

nuclear option is a MAD last option when state of Pakistan existence is at stake
its not a threatening tool to swing on every disagreement and confrontation. its use means end of Pakistan too. you want that for Punjsher? really?

the so called Pakistani red lines mean nothing. India's Curent NSA has boasted helping BLA and TTP in the past and our dossiers have blamed them using Afghan soil too. Chinese citizens and Pakistani soldiers are regularly being attacked through Afghanistan those red lines seem to be shifting and nothing beyond a statement.

you have missed out Turkey and Iran. Turkey backs General Dostom specially.
Panjsher has received supplies recently before its fall. I dont see any nuclear mushroom in Ankara, Tehran or Delhi yet.

 

[PradoTLC]

4: Pure luck, that was on Taliban's side

clearly you are talking out of your arse.

ANA collapse quickly because it was fundamentally flawed. Half the US trained ANA were taliban. Got training , got weapons, learned their SOP and then switched.

there is common disullusionment in the west thinking they did well against the taliban. Actually they didnt, just about every honest western officer's testments i have read stated the following

- "thinking taliban"
- "adaptive tactics"
- sophisticated game plan"
"difficult close quarter engagements"

ie it wasnt a dumb enemy, but an enemy that knew what it was doing. here is an example of their effectiveness knocking out 8 Marine Harriers..

camp-bastion-bloody-attack

Camp Bastion assault: Details emerge of Taliban attack

New details emerge of the large-scale response to a Taliban attack last week on Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, in which two US Marines and 14 Taliban fighters were killed.

www.bbc.com

your media lied to you big time.

 

[Danish Moazzam]

So you are saying Pakistan is so powerful that it threatened the world with radio-active waves and everyone got scared? And didn't put sanctions on Pakistan? This "belief system" is childish to say the least.

The only reason why the Talibans got to where they are, are primarily:
1: US withdraw that was hasty and confusing to say the least
2: A total collapse of the Afg. NA. Didn't allow or provide anytime for any outside intervention and it was immediate.
3: Within days, the country was taken over, leaving no chance of even having the ability to provide outside support as India or any other country, would need to setup supply chain and it takes months.
4: Pure luck, that was on Taliban's side. All assessments went dead. I believe the idea was, the Afghan NA would hold Talibans at bay for about 1.5-3 months. It was enough time for outsiders to setup their militias and networks (like it's always been). But the sudden and immediate collapse of the NA, allowed no such opportunity.

20 Years
47 Countries
2 Superpowers included (India and America)
Most advance tech utilized
300k Battle ready fully equipped Soldiers (Some of them even trained by the Super Power India herself)
Billions of Dollars of Equipment

And Taliban were lucky.... WOW

They knew what the plan was and they knew it had to be SWIFT, they executed it to near perfection.

 

[F.O.X]

the reason no one intervened is very simple, except for China and Pakistan non of the Neighbors had the ability to do so. neither India nor Iran . this is not a movie set where you will see forces paradropping from the sky in the middle of the night in an unknown region.

if the could have they would have.

 

[Adonis]

Probably some strange going off.. You mentioned Many countries who have been in peace for decades such as Iran, Sudan, Gulf countries and even Iraq is not in war period anymore and now not even Afghanistan but we will count and Libya. The post itself sounds like an Indian post which gives you out..

You may be giving to much credit where there is not. Part of this region is the empire belt and everyone has that arrogance and feeling or wanting to take over everything for himself or let me put it this way everyone has an ego around this area. The US is not entirely dumb but not nearly smart enough.. Without the US these states who have been at each others throats regardless to much ego.

A great Example is during Rama Raya's era in India there was 5 deccan sultanates who were constantly at each others throats to the point Rama Raya was entirely invisible to them and the competition between them and animosity was deep they started to ally with Rama Raya against each other he didn't even want to intervene but he was a hired gun what does this tell you and there was no America back than.. This region has always been like that since it is the empire belt and will continue to be in the next 1000 years hence you have given to much misplaced credit

I mentioned several countries because you said out of 50 very few are in Turmoil.....you are taking point in time view (narrow vision) while my point is it doesn't matter how many now...question is how many so far? (have been toasted by the West)...if they would have brains, they should stop letting themselves used

You are trying to undermine stuff but let me ask this.....Since Industrial revolution in late 16th century.....Why Muslims have been getting played by West everywhere...From Ottoman's to Modern Islamic states...all have been thoroughly tossed by the West....If they are not That smart...why Muslims could do the same...why they have been on receiving end always...

And if you say "Ego" is what divide them then I would say, ego is in every human being...if Europe can make a Union, are we saying Muslim states are full of idiots?... where as they keep blowing the trumpet of Ummah, Muslim Brotherhood, blah blah.....sound Hypocrisy, isn't it?

I have no clue bout Indian History (before Brits) so no comments on your Rama Raya stuff....

 

[DJ_Viper]

20 Years
47 Countries
2 Superpowers included (India and America)
Most advance tech utilized
300k Battle ready fully equipped Soldiers (Some of them even trained by the Super Power India herself)
Billions of Dollars of Equipment

And Taliban were lucky.... WOW

They knew what the plan was and they knew it had to be SWIFT, they executed it to near perfection.

Genius, you didn't answer my question or answered to address my post. Lastly, out of 24, if just in 3-4 province (10% of the ANA) stood up, I think right now we'd still be waiting on "when" Afg. would fall to Talibans. So yes, luck played a big factor. No matter how powerful they were, who'd have thought that 90% of the country won't fire a few shots at them and would just surrender.

 

[DJ_Viper]

clearly you are talking out of your arse.

ANA collapse quickly because it was fundamentally flawed. Half the US trained ANA were taliban. Got training , got weapons, learned their SOP and then switched.

there is common disullusionment in the west thinking they did well against the taliban. Actually they didnt, just about every honest western officer's testments i have read stated the following

- "thinking taliban"
- "adaptive tactics"
- sophisticated game plan"
"difficult close quarter engagements"

ie it wasnt a dumb enemy, but an enemy that knew what it was doing. here is an example of their effectiveness knocking out 8 Marine Harriers..

your media lied to you big time.

First of all, you want to debate with me, keep mutual respect in tact. You want to disagree, learn to debate like grown up adults.

Second, I don't watch "my media". I have sources and deep knowledge with real life experience. I know the dynamics here very well. So, while I know, the US was robbed for 2 decades and our leaders didn't want to accept it and continued throwing out money and weapons, the reality in the less-than-a-week take over of a whole country includes luck. In English, we have a phrase called "Timing is everything" this is the luck factor the Taliban used or they were destined to be here. The surprise takeover was really a blitzkrieg. Surprise has a lot to do with wins in war history.


Just to give you some history, Afg. has always had a lot of fractions that don't like the Talibans. Panjshir was just one. On the other side was your arch rival India with grandiose post US plans, and everything was thinking the Afghan Army would hold out for minimum of 30 days and then everyone will jump in. Well it never came to 7 days, let alone 30. I'd let you run your mind and study war history from WWII. It'll serve you well.

 

[RescueRanger]

I remember ANA soldiers and interpreters would try to steal gear or help local workers take misc items or wheel-borrowers full of bottled water from base to be sold outside. I would tell them, why do you guys steal, that’s wrong. Their reply would be, this stuff belongs to Kafirs, it’s permissible for us to take.

It’s really sad isn’t it,

 

[PradoTLC]

You want to disagree, learn to debate like grown up adults.

Good

adults don’t talk with horse shit .. but facts

Second, I don't watch "my media"

I am so happy for you .

 

[PradoTLC]

the reality in the less-than-a-week take over of a whole country includes luck.

there is no such thing as luck in warefare…

reminds me of those dim witted French apologist who claim Germany got lucky that French intel could not interpret correctly the massing of German armor via the Ardennes forest.

That is exactly what the German high command betting on. French inapt and imaginative generalship.

rival India with grandiose post US plans, and everything was thinking the Afghan Army would hold out for minimum of 30 days and then everyone will jump in.

Indian intelligence?

what is that ?

Well it never came to 7 days, let alone 30

Zaid hamid a security analyst a guy india hates .. predicted that a year ago .

May be if you had better intel

 

[DJ_Viper]

there is no such thing as luck in warefare…
reminds me of those dim witted French apologist who claim Germany got lucky that French intel could not interpret correctly the massing of German armor via the Ardennes forest.
That is exactly what the German high command betting on. French inapt and imaginative generalship.
Indian intelligence?
what is that ?

How old are you? Let's start with that first. Your response has no symptom and sign of professionalism or experience in this field..... and trust me, there is luck for sure in a war and usually that luck's almost exclusively linked to timing or a surprise. Both were factors here. Ask someone senior who has been through a real war and they'd tell ya the same.

Good
adults don’t talk with horse shit .. but facts
I am so happy for you .

You again. Age: 21, rich daddy's boy I take it? Thanks for the response though. It wasn't needed.

 

[PradoTLC]

30. I'd let you run your mind and study war history from WWII. It'll serve you well.

W2 ?

Russian took Berlin and Russian invasion into Manchuria promted japans surrender

Korea

China and Russia screwed you.

Chinese threw you back all the way to the 38th parallel

Vietnam

China and Russia screwed USA

Afghan war
Pakistan screwed USA

Iraq war

Iran screwed USA

How old are you? L

Old enough to give you a

Your response has no symptom and sign of professionalism or experience in this field....

It is called common sense

. Ask someone senior who has been through a real war and they'd tell ya the same.

Yes I asked.

and they said people who believe in that always lose wars.

 

[sal29]

I mentioned several countries because you said out of 50 very few are in Turmoil.....you are taking point in time view (narrow vision) while my point is it doesn't matter how many now...question is how many so far? (have been toasted by the West)...if they would have brains, they should stop letting themselves used

You are trying to undermine stuff but let me ask this.....Since Industrial revolution in late 16th century.....Why Muslims have been getting played by West everywhere...From Ottoman's to Modern Islamic states...all have been thoroughly tossed by the West....If they are not That smart...why Muslims could do the same...why they have been on receiving end always...

And if you say "Ego" is what divide them then I would say, ego is in every human being...if Europe can make a Union, are we saying Muslim states are full of idiots?... where as they keep blowing the trumpet of Ummah, Muslim Brotherhood, blah blah.....sound Hypocrisy, isn't it?

I have no clue bout Indian History (before Brits) so no comments on your Rama Raya stuff....

I understand your point but your analysis is incorrect.

From Ottoman's to Modern Islamic states...all have been thoroughly tossed by the West.
Well Ottomans tossed West for a quite a bit time. All good things do come to an end and unfortunately Ottomans made the same mistakes the Mughals did and most Muslim empires did in the past. Your statement gives an impression that the Western civilization would last forever (it has only been less than a century where the current form of West appeared). That impression of eternal West itself is quite flawed. Your West will fall eventually the only question is whether your way of life disappears with it.

And if you say "Ego" is what divide them then I would say, ego is in every human being...if Europe can make a Union, are we saying Muslim states are full of idiots?... where as they keep blowing the trumpet of Ummah, Muslim Brotherhood, blah blah.....sound Hypocrisy, isn't it?

First of all the concept of Ummah and that kind of Union is more prevalent in South Asia and not really in the Arabs. The second point is the setup in most Muslim countries is towards having a Kingdom (this includes UAE) which directly conflicts with the concept of Ummah. You cant have an Ummah if you have to protect your family regime (Arabs springs the latest example). The concept of Ummah is really good if you adhere to principle of Islam which is no superiority between an Arab and a Non Arab except your individual deeds. Unfortunately racisms is something that Arabs have yet to overcome and even Pakistanis do show it in some forms. Also sectarian issues do play some part in it as well.

Why Muslims have been getting played by West everywhere

The answer to this is very complicated and goes back colonialism (which was not that far in the past less than 1 century). The colonialism impacted the very social fabric of Muslims in every possible way whether it was Education (religious & scientific), borders, trade etc. One century is not nearly enough to overcome that. Also the West is not stupid they are very good manipulators and unfortunately our leaders pre-disposed to those manipulation.

The only way to overcome and make a Union is to find common ground, just having common religion and being part of Ummah is not enough. We need to have a common threat (just like EU/Nato have). Unfortunately there is no common threat at the moment (unlike what most people believe in Pakistan for example that common threat is the West, it does not translate on Government level). As long as that common threat is not there we will not unify.