Why Bangladesh overtook Pakistan

[Nilgiri]

Well, let me go back to the original proposal, which was a confederation with a common currency, defense and foreign policy, not adversarial states. I reckon it would have been a serious player in the world today.

I looked thru the thread and can't find this anywhere. I guess you are referencing another earlier thread?

I agree there are many hypotheticals including yours where the region would have come out a lot stronger. I have speculated on a good deal myself when I cared more about that kind of topic in this forum....which I do not really anymore (having long been witness to what they devolve into once the angry mob floods in on cue)

But as always, people have a way of usurping the potential away and taking it down some emotional, visceral route at great realized cost to all....but some notion of "STRONK" optics/feelz is made into the dal+roti+ghee for basic subsistence/raison d'etre so to speak.

@Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 @scorpionx

 

[Joe Shearer]

I looked thru the thread and can't find this anywhere. I guess you are referencing another earlier thread?

This was Jinnah's original proposal.

I agree there are many hypotheticals including yours where the region would have come out a lot stronger. I have speculated on a good deal myself when I cared more about that kind of topic in this forum....which I do not really anymore (having long been witness to what they devolve into once the angry mob floods in on cue)

But as always, people have a way of usurping the potential away and taking it down some emotional, visceral route at great realized cost to all....but some notion of "STRONK" optics/feelz is made into the dal+roti+ghee for basic subsistence/raison d'etre so to speak.

@Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 @scorpionx

 

[Nilgiri]

This was Jinnah's original proposal.

Yes it was haughtily ignored and dismissed...at great ultimate cost. I wish I was there in the right place to intervene at that moment and work on it....but hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I have talked at length about this kind of concept in my earlier incarnations in BD subforum....when we would stop bickering about things and get to root of the matter of division of Bengal and subcontinent more broadly.

It comes from complex that everything we do and feel today has to be in a stasis for future generations too....rather than giving them benefit of the doubt and maximum opportunity to develop a better attitude....which necessitates as broad an envelope for them to inherit. It could have been done, so very easily done (much easier than hating and dividing abruptly and cruelly if you think about it)....when I see just how much those folks on the other side enjoy the same things as I do (which I do credit this forum big time for... even with all its faults)....often just few minutes after they have done posting something "time clock check in, check out on cue" about what makes them different/superior/blah to us....that has been imprinted by that stasis of mistrust/fear in the end. Same goes for certain characters on our side too.

As ole Willy said through shylock: If you prick us with a pin, don’t we bleed? If you tickle us, don’t we laugh? If you poison us, don’t we die? And if you treat us badly, won’t we try to get revenge?

@M. Sarmad @saiyan0321 @T-123456

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes it was haughtily ignored and dismissed...at great ultimate cost. I wish I was there in the right place to intervene at that moment and work on it....but hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I have talked at length about this kind of concept in my earlier incarnations in BD subforum....when we would stop bickering about things and get to root of the matter of division of Bengal and subcontinent more broadly.

It comes from complex that everything we do and feel today has to be in a stasis for future generations too....rather than giving them benefit of the doubt and maximum opportunity to develop a better attitude....which necessitates as broad an envelope for them to inherit. It could have been done, so very easily done (much easier than hating and dividing abruptly and cruelly if you think about it)....when I see just how much those folks on the other side enjoy the same things as I do (which I do credit this forum big time for... even with all its faults)....often just few minutes after they have done posting something "time clock check in, check out on cue" about what makes them different/superior/blah to us....that has been imprinted by that stasis of mistrust/fear in the end. Same goes for certain characters on our side too.

As ole Willy said through shylock: If you prick us with a pin, don’t we bleed? If you tickle us, don’t we laugh? If you poison us, don’t we die? And if you treat us badly, won’t we try to get revenge?

@M. Sarmad @saiyan0321 @T-123456

It'll be interesting to see the answers.

Obviously what I'm hinting at, and now saying openly, is that things were more complex than they seem to be. It's like a predisposed administration at work; you can't put your finger on anything specific, you just land up knowing it isn't going to work.

You want to look at the events during the joint administration of the Congress and Muslim League in the United Provinces just before 1946.

 

[Nilgiri]

It'll be interesting to see the answers.

Obviously what I'm hinting at, and now saying openly, is that things were more complex than they seem to be. It's like a predisposed administration at work; you can't put your finger on anything specific, you just land up knowing it isn't going to work.

You want to look at the events during the joint administration of the Congress and Muslim League in the United Provinces just before 1946.

Hence I only go so deep into hypothetical stuff anymore. I wasn't actually there and present...and it just opens up slippery slope of what hypothetical was even the most significant of things I wasn't around for. Then there is also the possibility that you have to account for, that you only making things worse in the end (no matter how good your intent may be).

Fiddling around with boundary conditions and inputs for my simulations (and running them and going o-crap, reverse reverse!...generally) is one thing....but this is totally another (even if it were available to do so).

Thus I work the best I can with what the reality is now....and learn the best I can from hindsight....and keep things in context as much as I can regarding my scale to the overall scale.

 

[kris]

You guys need to define what is a vassal state. Is Canada, America's vassal state?

And Pakistan have more possibilities to become a vassal state of China than BD to become India's. Most of the countries are under influence of some other country these days.

Or mutual interest...

Being almost surrounded by India Bangladesh will always like to have better relationship with india

OfftopicOI
I always wonder pakistani's claiming that Pakistan is in a strategic Location...

What is the great advantage they does have.?

They are not like turkey bridging bother Europe and Arab world

 

[Mage]

Canada doesn't rig its elections. So no, its definitely not a vassal state.

What has rigging election has to do with being a vassal state?

Russia rigs elections. Is it a vassal state? In Egypt, Sisi rigged election. Whose vassal state Egypt might be? China doesn't even have elections. Pakistan also had it's fair share of rigged election. Ayub Khan's 1965 and Bhutto's 1977 election were rigged. So was Pakistan a vassal state then? Even some claimed last election was rigged. Shahbaz Shariff rejected the results and some pdf guys said, Army rigged to get Imran in power. In India too you will see people claiming EVM rigging after the election.

I always wonder pakistani's claiming that Pakistan is in a strategic Location...

What is the great advantage they does have.?

They are not like turkey bridging bother Europe and Arab world

Pakistan is closer to ME war zones. Bordering Iran and Afghan also India and China. BD on the other hand closer to ASEAN. Also bordering India, with BBIN corridor it can access to Nepal and Bhutan while India will be able to access it's NE through BD.

Both BD and Pakistan have different advantages. Pakistan to ME and central Asia, BD to ASEAN. If I were given a choice, I would not change BD's location with Pakistan's.

 

[Nilgiri]

What has rigging election has to do with being a vassal state?

If you don't rig elections, you are very unlikely to be a vassal state (the exception being if you have codified it into your constitution somewhat along the lines of Japan). The opposite is not as true (these are not mutually exclusive sets...but neither are they anywhere close to congruent overlap).

For a country as small and weak as Bangladesh....rigging elections is a good sign of being a vassal and dependent on others instructions (i.e you have a major political benefactor). Again like I told the other BD poster here already (which maybe you didn't read)...its best you lot talk among it yourselves and come to consensus first before presenting me with some position to discuss further:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/bsf-...rom-brahmanbaria-border.597653/#post-11110966

i.e read the rest of my posts in a thread before you reply.

In India too you will see people claiming EVM rigging after the election.

It starts and ends with claiming given Indian supreme court credibility (something institutionally that will simply never be present in BD this century and maybe beyond). That is why you don't see 95% seat win or something ridiculous like that by a 3rd term incumbent like seen in BD.....just 5% anti-incumbency apparently....very credible....very hilsarious as @Retired Troll says.

 

[Gibbs]

Other indicators are equally stunning. East Pakistan’s population in the 1951 census was 42 million, while West Pakistan’s was 33.7m. But today Bangladesh has far fewer people than Pakistan — 165m versus 200m. A sustained population planning campaign helped reduce fertility in Bangladesh. No such campaign — or even its beginnings — is visible today in Pakistan.

Eschewing militarism in favour of human development, Bangladesh set its initial priorities correctly.

The health sector is no less impressive — far fewer babies die at birth in Bangladesh than in Pakistan. Immunisation is common and no one gets shot dead for administering polio drops. Life expectancy (72.5 years) is higher than Pakistan’s (66.5 years). According to the ILO, females are well ahead in employment (33.2pc) as compared to Pakistan (25.1pc).

Cant really disagree with these facts

Pakistan is not the only country like that. There are many multi ethnic countries which shares groups with it's neighbor. Indonesia for example. They are doing fine.

There is clear reason for that, Countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey etc.. Prioritized national identity and nation building above religious dogma and theocracy.. And i think something Bangladesh seem to be going with success in recent decades

This is where Pakistan lost the plot especially since radicalization during Zia regime.. It's a rot they need to get out of or be left behind, Imran Khan is making the right noises but can he get beyond the set in religious dogma and the now highly influential fundamentalists remains to be seen

 

[Unite & Defend]

Because Pakistan opposes the largest regional power, whereas Bangladesh has de facto accepted Indian dominance. Bangladesh's acceptance of this power order has been beneficial to it and allowed it to focus purely on its economic growth. However this economic growth is fundamentally dependent on Indian benevolence. So long as Bangladesh tows the line, continues its anti-Pakistan rhetoric and takes a measured approach towards China, this Indian benevolence will continue. Should an ideological individual take the reigns of power in Dhaka though, then the fissures can have serious consequences on Bangladeshi stability.

Pakistan opposing the largest regional power has meanwhile resulted in instability, armed conflict (terrorism, Kashmir etc), and economic barriers, all of them impacting growth negatively. However the Pakistani approach is rooted more in ideology and less in realism. Ideology dictates sovereignty and independence even at the cost of economic stagnation. Both sides can judge each other and state the other is wrong.

Well said

 

[EasyNow]

Ask your own people about it first:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/bsf-...rom-brahmanbaria-border.597653/#post-11110966

Both the poster and those that liked it. Have a good productive discussion there about it first among you lot.

Then come to me with your consensus and we can proceed from there.



Where does Indian supreme court (where these allegations ultimately end up at) rank in institutional credibility compared to Bangladesh?

Put that into context first before you start the apples to apples "allegation" "reminding".

I am quoting you, why should I care what others on a different topic say?

And regarding the Indian supreme court, let's not act like you're Germany here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/12/india-supreme-court-judges-integrity-dipak-misra

 

[American Pakistani]

And Pakistan have more possibilities to become a vassal state of China than BD to become India's.

Actually Pakistan becoming a vassal state has zero possibility. Pakistan is not in that league. People used to claim Pakistan is Saudi vassal state, then American vassal state but then...now people claim the same about China which is ridiculous. China was investing when no one was, and China is Pakistan's strategic partner who had vetoed several bills presented against Pakistan. China is the one who is helping Pakistani military fulfill it's requirements when Russians, Europe and US refused to due to monetary benefits from India. India will never ever allow Bangladesh to grow militarily and independent because it does not want another "Pakistan" threat in it's high sensitive north east, and for this reason if India looses few billions to make Bangladesh happy it is worth it. There is simply zero comparision.

Tbh quality of life does seem better in Pakistan - you have a lot more space (less population density), your land is also very good for building on and you have an ample supply of building materials locally. You are all blessed with beautiful Highlands too.

But the economy part is 100% true, there is no doubt that BD is more productive than Pakistan today. Sadly even with that, to achieve quality of life on par will take a while.

for a balanced post. Rare to see from most PDF Bangladeshis.

I agree economically Bangladesh has been doing way better than Pakistan and I think it is due to multiple factors instead of just one. Pakistan has been fighting a war for 18 years before which it was under heavy sanctions due to nuclear program and before that another war and refugees from Central Asia and Afghanistan. Secondly Indian lobbies and diplomats working hard to create barriers internationally for Pakistan, again no such barriers for Bangladesh. Another reason that Pakistan was under most corrupt regimes such as Zardari/Nawaz for a decade and before that BB/Nawaz for another decade. Pakistan is in improving stage and seems to be coming out of crises, I believe the situation will be different within next 3 years or so. Let's hope both countries progress in future.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am quoting you, why should I care what others on a different topic say?

And regarding the Indian supreme court, let's not act like you're Germany here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/12/india-supreme-court-judges-integrity-dipak-misra

Why would I discuss something 1 guy says about his country....when there is clearly a larger majority of his own countrymen in this forum that disagree (avowedly) with him...that he should at least try convince first?...to then have some base credibility to approach me (a foreigner) next?

My contention is that Canada is not a vassal state because it doesn't rig its elections.

The fact you and @Mage then took that to mean Bangladesh is a vassal state because it does clearly rig its elections....says enough about the matter in the end for me. Or is the contention that BD doesn't rig its elections?

It was mage that brought up Canada in vassal state definition. I simply gave my opinion that Canada is not a vassal state...given it doesn't rig its elections (i.e deny its people their genuine ability to form govt)....so the burden of proof is on him (and you since you have joined in) to explain what exactly a vassal state is...rather than argue something I never postulated in first place (but you two simply felt I implied...which really says its own story too).

@Joe Shearer @VCheng @scorpionx @jbgt90

How did this turn to acting like we're Germany here? We aren't Germany on a whole lot of things (notably the early to mid 20th century history at a state sponsored level). If we are talking about Indian election credibility versus Bangladesh...and the clearly wide chasm between those....we can open that topic if you want.

Do you reasonably think any Indian election (federal or state) would produce a 95 to 5 result % seat wise in the end with 3rd term anti-incumbency and BCL street hooliganism present? Let's start there.

 

[VCheng]

Why would I discuss something 1 guy says about his country....when there is clearly a larger majority of his own countrymen in this forum that disagree (avowedly) with him...that he should at least try convince first?...to then have some base credibility to approach me (a foreigner) next?

My contention is that Canada is not a vassal state because it doesn't rig its elections.

The fact you and @Mage then took that to mean Bangladesh is a vassal state because it does clearly rig its elections....says enough about the matter in the end for me. Or is the contention that BD doesn't rig its elections?

It was mage that brought up Canada in vassal state definition. I simply gave my opinion that Canada is not a vassal state...given it doesn't rig its elections (i.e deny its people their genuine ability to form govt)....so the burden of proof is on him (and you since you have joined in) to explain what exactly a vassal state is...rather than argue something I never postulated in first place (but you two simply felt I implied...which really says its own story too).

@Joe Shearer @VCheng @scorpionx @jbgt90

How did this turn to acting like we're Germany here? We aren't Germany on a whole lot of things (notably the early to mid 20th century history at a state sponsored level). If we are talking about Indian election credibility versus Bangladesh...and the clearly wide chasm between those....we can open that topic if you want.

Do you reasonably think any Indian election (federal or state) would produce a 95 to 5 result % seat wise in the end with 3rd term anti-incumbency and BCL street hooliganism present? Let's start there.

Actually, I brought up that word in the context of this thread since Pakistan spent huge resources to create the independence that comes with nuclear weapons rather than concentrating on social development that has given Bangladesh its present lead in in human resource development.

 

[EasyNow]

Actually, I brought up that word in the context of this thread since Pakistan spent huge resources to create the independence that comes with nuclear weapons rather than concentrating on social development that ha given Bangladesh its present lead in in human resource development.

@Nilgiri as usual is engaging in misdirection and whataboutery to veil his mistake.

Despite the propaganda, there is actually very little evidence to prove BD is any more influenced by India than 40 years ago.