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Why Bangladesh overtook Pakistan

However, it must give due consideration to its bigger trading partners, right? :D

Of course, but thats just business in the end.

To me the definition of vassal starts when you are not allowed to give due consideration by your own (popular) judgement on things.....and symptoms often include election rigging.
 
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Of course, but thats just business in the end.

To me the definition of vassal starts when you are not allowed to give due consideration by your own (popular) judgement on things.....and symptoms often include election rigging.

I agree, The key is alignments of national interests.
 
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The definition fits in many situations:

vas·sal
Dictionary result for vassal
/ˈvasəl/
noun
HISTORICAL
  1. a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
    synonyms: villein, liege, liegeman, man, bondsman, vavasour, serf, helot, slave, thrall, subject
    • a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
      "a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"

Yes I know the definition....but its the application to the situations I'm on about. If you apply it too broadly, it loses its definition.....just like you lose your muscle tone/shape if you stuff yourself with pizza and burgers every day :P

So what is too broad an application?...what is a suitable window for it to apply? etc... Thats what this forum will go into its usual games about to "determine"....games I am tired of :P

That is exactly what justifies the nuclear deterrent. It only needs to be credible to be the great equalizer.

Right and an effective nuclear deterrent shouldn't cost 9 billion a year (when growth is projected to slip below 4% even for such a low base economy)....and certainly the argument shouldn't be "62 billion is not enough spending for the adversary given our 9 billion level" as employed by our mutual rosy glasses friend :D ....given its far different economic and military situations in play.
 
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Yes I know the definition....but its the application to the situations I'm on about. If you apply it too broadly, it loses its definition.....just like you lose your muscle tone/shape if you stuff yourself with pizza and burgers every day :P

So what is too broad an application?...what is a suitable window for it to apply? etc... Thats what this forum will go into its usual games about to "determine"....games I am tired of :P

Fine, have it your way.

But don't ever badmouth pizza and burgers.

Them's fightin' words.








(And beer. :D )

Right and an effective nuclear deterrent shouldn't cost 9 billion a year....and certainly the argument shouldn't be "62 billion is not enough spending for the adversary given our 9 billion level" as employed by our mutual rosy glasses friend :D ....given its far different economic and military situations in play.

You make a good point. I have always said that having the nuclear umbrella should have been a boon for spending on social development, and sadly that has not been done, much to the detriment of Pakistan's long term prospects.
 
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But don't ever badmouth pizza and burgers.

Not badmouthing :D....just saying over abundance of anything is not good for the definition :D

I wouldn't suggest a diet of just salad either (just so you know your pizza, burger and beer love is fine by me....i love them too as well)......definitions need balance is all :P ....of course it rests with everyone to find what works for them.
 
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@ziaulislam Still think that 9 billion on defense yearly to try keep up with 62 billion of the 7+% growth guy (at higher base) is worth it?

@Dante80



Canada doesn't rig its elections. So no, its definitely not a vassal state.

It’s 9 billion and then, unlike other armies, their army owns several businesses so you cad 2-3 billion on top of that.
 
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Not badmouthing :D....just saying over abundance of anything is not good for the definition :D

I wouldn't suggest a diet of just salad either (just so you know your pizza, burger and beer love is fine by me....i love them too as well)......definitions need balance is all :P ....of course it rests with everyone to find what works for them.

Well, let me go back to the original proposal, which was a confederation with a common currency, defense and foreign policy, not adversarial states. I reckon it would have been a serious player in the world today.
 
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Ups and downs are part and parcel of life... Pak will b up n kicking in no time....


Author of article is a libral whore who wnt b happy if pakistan was made of gold....
 
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It’s 9 billion and then, unlike other armies, their army owns several businesses so you cad 2-3 billion on top of that.

Well the latter is extraction from the patriotic citizens....its a source of revenue...rather than expenditure methinks.

Well, let me go back to the original proposal, which was a confederation with a common currency, defense and foreign policy, not adversarial states. I reckon it would have been a serious player in the world today.

That means I have to go back and read everything. IDONTWANNA!!! :cry:

Are we talking about subcontinent?
 
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World bank are the source of all wars an economic disasters. Ratings agencies like moody were called out during the last crisis and their ratings mean nothing. They admitted to lying.


I do not begrudge BD in the slightest and wish them well but having been there the reality is very different.

I don't disagree with you on quality of life as of today.

But Hoodbhay is on about Pakistan's trajectory - there is still a long way it can fall. Growing population and stagnating economy will not sustain this quality indefinitely.

Regarding BD the comparison is not so simple.

Pak has a population density of 265 per sqkm - Bangladesh's is a whopping 1291.

For us to achieve population density parity, we should have a population of 33m - that's not gonna happen. The only realistic way for BD to develop is through infrastructure building, social welfare systems and high quality public services (cleaning, policing, etc.). So a developed Pakistan and a developed Bangladesh will never be comparable.

Even in that scenario you could argue that Pak quality of life is better - just like it's probably better than in busy parts of London or Kuala Lumpur.

We can only play the cards we have been dealt, the point is Pakistan in this comparison is not playing its cards well.
 
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Of course, but thats just business in the end.

To me the definition of vassal starts when you are not allowed to give due consideration by your own (popular) judgement on things.....and symptoms often include election rigging.

That is a stretch even by your standards - since when is election rigging a symptom of a vassal state? May I remind you how many allegations of vote rigging have been made in India??

It may be the symptom of being a dictatorship but that's a different conversation.
 
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what is exactly the ideology of the pakistani state ?

There are different views on that but most will converge on the idea that the Muslim majority provinces of the Indus region should become part of one country. The letter K from Pakistan is missing hence why the state has developed a hostile attitude towards the largest nation in the wider region.
 
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That is a stretch even by your standards - since when is election rigging a symptom of a vassal state?

Ask your own people about it first:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/bsf-...rom-brahmanbaria-border.597653/#post-11110966

Both the poster and those that liked it. Have a good productive discussion there about it first among you lot.

Then come to me with your consensus and we can proceed from there.

May I remind you how many allegations of vote rigging have been made in India??

Where does Indian supreme court (where these allegations ultimately end up at) rank in institutional credibility compared to Bangladesh?

Put that into context first before you start the apples to apples "allegation" "reminding".
 
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https://www.dawn.com/news/1462757/why-bangladesh-overtook-pakistan
Pervez Hoodbhoy

BANGLADESH is not some Scandinavian heaven. It is poor and overpopulated, undereducated and corrupt, frequented by natural catastrophes, experiences occasional terrorism, and the farcical nature of its democracy was exposed in the December 2018 elections. But the earlier caricature of a country on life support disappeared years ago. Today, some economists say it shall be the next Asian tiger. Its growth rate last year (7.8 per cent) put it at par with India (8.0pc) and well above Pakistan (5.8pc). The debt per capita for Bangladesh ($434) is less than half that for Pakistan ($974), and its foreign exchange reserves ($32 billion) are four times Pakistan’s ($8bn).

Take a look: Why we lag behind

Much of this growth owes to exports which zoomed from zero in 1971 to $35.8bn in 2018 (Pakistan’s is $24.8bn). Bangladesh produces no cotton but, to the chagrin of Pakistan’s pampered textile industry, it has eaten savagely into its market share. The IMF calculates Bangladesh’s economy growing from $180bn presently to $322bn by 2021. This means that the average Bangladeshi today is almost as wealthy as the average Pakistani and, if the rupee depreciates further, will be technically wealthier by 2020.

Other indicators are equally stunning. East Pakistan’s population in the 1951 census was 42 million, while West Pakistan’s was 33.7m. But today Bangladesh has far fewer people than Pakistan — 165m versus 200m. A sustained population planning campaign helped reduce fertility in Bangladesh. No such campaign — or even its beginnings — is visible today in Pakistan.

Eschewing militarism in favour of human development, Bangladesh set its initial priorities correctly.

The health sector is no less impressive — far fewer babies die at birth in Bangladesh than in Pakistan. Immunisation is common and no one gets shot dead for administering polio drops. Life expectancy (72.5 years) is higher than Pakistan’s (66.5 years). According to the ILO, females are well ahead in employment (33.2pc) as compared to Pakistan (25.1pc).

How did West Pakistan’s poor cousin manage to upstage its richer relative by so much so fast? It’s all the more puzzling because Bangladesh has no geostrategic assets saleable to America, China, or Saudi Arabia. It also has no nuclear weapons, no army of significance, no wise men in uniform running the country from the shadows, and no large pool of competent professionals. At birth, East Pakistan had, in fact, no trained bureaucracy; it received just one member of the former Indian Civil Service.

Special report: The Breakup of Pakistan 1969-1971

None should be more surprised at these new developments than those West Pakistanis — like me — who went to school during the 1950s and 1960s and grew up surrounded by unconcealed racism. Short and dark Bengalis were reputedly good only for growing jute and rice and catching fish. They were Muslims and Pakistanis, of course, but as children we were made to imagine that all good Muslims and real Pakistanis are tall, fair, and speak chaste Urdu. We’d laugh madly at the strange-sounding Bengali news broadcasts from Radio Pakistan. In our foolish macho world, they sounded terribly feminine.

The mega surrender of 1971 made West Pakistanis eat humble pie. But, even as the two-nation theory went out of the window, the overwhelming majority was loath to change its thinking. The west wing renamed itself Pakistan, many assuming this was temporary. They said Bangladesh could never survive economically and would humbly ask to be taken back.

Others optimistically imagined that the disaster had taught Pakistan a profound lesson making change inevitable. Responding enthusiastically to the popular roti, kapra, makaan slogan, they believed Pakistan would shift from pampering its hyper-privileged ones towards providing welfare for all. Equally, it was hoped that the rights of Pakistan’s culturally diverse regions would be respected. None of this happened. Instead, we simply got more of what had been earlier.

Thirsting for vengeance, Pakistan’s establishment could think of nothing beyond wounded honour and ways to settle scores with India. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s secret call for the nuclear bomb led to the famed Multan meeting just six weeks after the surrender. That centralisation of authority breeds local resentment remained an unlearned lesson. In 1973, Bhutto dismissed the NAP government in Balochistan and ordered military action, starting a series of local rebellions that has never gone away. In doing so, he re-empowered those who ultimately hanged him.

In a nutshell, Bangladesh and Pakistan are different countries today because they perceive their national interest very differently. Bangladesh sees its future in human development and economic growth. Goal posts are set at increasing exports, reducing unemployment, improving health, reducing dependence upon loans and aid, and further extending micro credit. Water and boundary disputes with India are serious and Bangladesh suffers bullying by its bigger neighbour on matters of illegal immigration, drugs, etc. But its basic priorities have not wavered.

For Pakistan, human development comes a distant second. The bulk of national energies remain focused upon check-mating India. Relations with Afghanistan and Iran are therefore troubled; Pakistan accuses both of being excessively close to India. But the most expensive consequence of the security state mindset was the nurturing of extra state actors in the 1990s. Ultimately they had to be crushed after the APS massacre of Dec 16, 2014. This, coincidentally, was the day Dhaka had fallen 43 years earlier.

Bangladesh is conflicted by internal rifts. Still, being more multicultural and liberal, its civil society and activist intelligentsia have stopped armed groups from grabbing the reins of power. Although elected or quasi-elected Bangladeshi leaders are often horribly corrupt and incompetent, they don’t simply endorse decisions — they actually make them. Ultimately responsible to their electorate, they are forced to invest in people instead of weapons or a massive military establishment.

For Pakistan, these are lessons to be pondered over. CPEC or no CPEC, it’s impossible to match India tank for tank or missile by missile. Surely it is time to get realistic. Shouting ‘Pakistan zindabad’ from the rooftops while obsequiously taking dictation from the Americans, Chinese, and Saudis has taken us nowhere. Announcing that we have become targets of a fifth-generation hi-tech secret subversion inflames national paranoia but is otherwise pointless. Instead, to move forward, Pakistan must transform its war economy into ultimately becoming a peace economy.

WoT happened, along with three incompetent governments, who slaved themselves to Washington.

Only now Pakistan has begun to look after its own interests and that of its people. CPEC is the future for Pakistan and we will become one of the wealthiest societies in the world, in sha Allah
 
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