Which is more advance, JF-17 Block 3 or F-16?

[ziaulislam]

I know a fair amount about air warfare as an enthusiast to submit my views- And without any personal attacks. The JF 17 is more comparable to a previous generation of Migs than a F16. Btw- The first rule of air warfare, check the adversary frontline aircraft you will be facing. Both in your case and China you know what those are and I suspect China knows JF17 is lacking in any form.

Please try to reply without cursing and personal attacks- it only proves you've been perturbed.



Question is not why would they buy, rather why would create a whole new platform and not consider it for themselves. The answer is obvious, honestly. It is a costs conscious aircraft with corresponding capabilities.

The US example you gave is precisely my point. The U.S would not create an aircraft platform and not have it in its arsenal. The US sells its F16s to its allies and uses it itself. Its allies don't ask the US to develop a new platform for them.

An aircraft made for limited, small budget airforces around the world should not be compared to an F16 platform.

yup, you are right and thousands of military planners and tech in Sweden (the only country survived all wars and enemies) are wrong

 

[araz]

Thanks for the reply. I think this post provides a much better insight into advantages v/s disadvantages.

Now the second part of the question, what is PAF doing to make the JF comparable to the F-16 B70. I recall that AESA radars, composites, better engine, IRST, HMD etc., are some of the improvements slated to be a part of B3.

Also, some comments on your points above:

A. 16s with CFT have unmatched range. (May be irrelevant in our particular scenario as JFTs now have IFR)
B. The quality of Radar and avionics is leagues above.Higher resolution and capability to track and attack targets simultaneously. (This is a serious drawback and needs to be resolved)
C. Better percormance of AMRAAM and other missiles. (We have AMRAAM version C5; I have read that SD series is atleast as capable as AMRAAM v5 if not better)
D. More powerful engine giving better maneouverability. (when can we expect a better Chinese engine, or a Russian alternative?)

In response to development directions, all things noted are possibly in the developmental phase and will be incorporated. However comparisons should be done for existent fighters rather than future versions.
CFT is a very good feature which according to @messiach is being looked at for JFT. Loitering time can thus be increased without additional tanks making it a good solution for use over sea where it may not be possible to IFR.
Better engine. All options including the EJ200 series(expensive and sanction prone) are on the cards. Possible options include the RD93MA, WS13/15, and possibly and very remotely EJ 230. Timelines are also important. EJ series are mostly out of reckoning due to costs and fear of sanctions in future. But an EFT buy may put things into perspective again. As said before it will all depend on how much access we are provided to the technology(within our own constraints of course)The most sensible thing for long term development maybe to go along with the Russians and get the engine allowing facilities for local assembly and overhauling. The Russians will play ball with us as the market is big for JFT plus future iteration. Whehther they can deliver is another thing. The Chinese tech is not mature enough for us to go that way at the moment. However in 5 yrs time who knows what will happen.
Radar is said to be in the same league as the bl 52s 69V9. Track while scan and simultaneous attack capability is currently less due to limitations of how many BVRs can one carry. This will change with the advent of AESA.However US industrial maturity cannot be surpassed overnight so we wait for our/Chinese industry to mature. Same for EW suite. We will look westwards again(possibly and just for EW suite).
Missiles are the same. We will have to wait and see what happens in the Chinese developmental cycle as they are rapidly progressing. The DK 10?? is their iteration of HOBS which may become availavble earlier than A darter. PAF will test both and possibly induct the better one of the 2.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

Thanks for the reply. I think this post provides a much better insight into advantages v/s disadvantages.

Now the second part of the question, what is PAF doing to make the JF comparable to the F-16 B70. I recall that AESA radars, composites, better engine, IRST, HMD etc., are some of the improvements slated to be a part of B3.

Also, some comments on your points above:

A. 16s with CFT have unmatched range. (May be irrelevant in our particular scenario as JFTs now have IFR)
B. The quality of Radar and avionics is leagues above.Higher resolution and capability to track and attack targets simultaneously. (This is a serious drawback and needs to be resolved)
C. Better percormance of AMRAAM and other missiles. (We have AMRAAM version C5; I have read that SD series is atleast as capable as AMRAAM v5 if not better)
D. More powerful engine giving better maneouverability. (when can we expect a better Chinese engine, or a Russian alternative?)

Hi,

Most posters don't realize---the problem is half with the fuel carrying capacity---and the other half with the OXYGEN SUPPLY to the pilot.

JF17 has an oxygen bottle with a supposed time frame of 3 hours---that means 2 1/2 hours flight time---it does not have an oxygen processing system on the aircraft.

http://www.cobham.com/mission-syste...-generation-systems-obogs/f-16-obogs/docview/

 

[MimophantSlayer]

They already had the J10 why would they buy JF17s to do the same job?

That would be like the U.S buying a alternative single engine fighter even though they had the F16s

Pakistan couldn't get F16s without strings or all its add one like AESA so we wanted a program that we could guide and collaborate on

China simply wanted us to buy J10s but we would have had very little say in their development

So we partnered with a Chinese company and collaborated on a fighter programme we had total control over

If you look at JF17 block 3 and its alleged goodies you will realise why its so potent because we get things on it that we don't have with the F16s like AESA andvwe are able to make and procure a full spectrum of missiles from air launched cruise missiles to anti radiation missiles

The only country looking to buy an alternative single engine fighter even though they have a in house option is India
And that's because they fcuked up the Tejas program so badly

The single engine fighter plan has been officially shelved.
Apart from the RFP HAL received for 83 Tejas on December last year, Tejas Mk2 is being fervently pushed as well.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/gov...and-f-16-unclear-1819238?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

I assure you Tejas is not given up on in lieu of foreign fighters.
The 5 Tejas inducted till the fall of last year had made over 600 flights, there are 6 Tejas inducted as of now.

 

[leviathan]

F 20 was privately developed, and it lost out to the early F-16 design. Had it won out, we would have used it too. It would not have been exclusively for export. In this case, China refuses to induct it for a reason. If we having an honest conversation- It falls far short of taking on front-line aircraft of its adversaries (Japan/US/India). And any talk of comparing it to our F16 should be avoided.

Do you agree that J10 > JF17? If you agree, then will be a surprise to you that China already cut half of J10C production? The PLAAF currently is really really happy with J16 + J20 combo...All available resource are been pulled towards it. The rumor is that J10C will be stopped complete by 2022...So nothing really wrong with JF17 and J10, they are good light and median fighter. It's J16 + J20 combo bring way too much shock to PLAAF.

 

[GURU DUTT]

They already had the J10 why would they buy JF17s to do the same job?

That would be like the U.S buying a alternative single engine fighter even though they had the F16s

Pakistan couldn't get F16s without strings or all its add one like AESA so we wanted a program that we could guide and collaborate on

China simply wanted us to buy J10s but we would have had very little say in their development

So we partnered with a Chinese company and collaborated on a fighter programme we had total control over

If you look at JF17 block 3 and its alleged goodies you will realise why its so potent because we get things on it that we don't have with the F16s like AESA andvwe are able to make and procure a full spectrum of missiles from air launched cruise missiles to anti radiation missiles

The only country looking to buy an alternative single engine fighter even though they have a in house option is India
And that's because they fcuked up the Tejas program so badly

well MODS & ADMIN please forgive me i kept quite all this while as i had no issue with JF17, J10 & J20 or XYZ fighter of PLAAF or PAF but why bring Tejas into it ?

what and how does it concerns pakistani fan boys @MastanKhan saheb fir boolonga to boloenge kee boolta hai

 

[Ultima Thule]

Do you agree that J10 > JF17? If you agree, then will be a surprise to you that China already cut half of J10C production? The PLAAF currently is really really happy with J16 + J20 combo...All available resource are been pulled towards it. The rumor is that J10C will be stopped complete by 2022...So nothing really wrong with JF17 and J10, they are good light and median fighter. It's J16 + J20 combo bring way too much shock to PLAAF.

Don't argu with him he is an Indian troll, and he is out of PDF @leviathan

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi,

Most posters don't realize---the problem is half with the fuel carrying capacity---and the other half with the OXYGEN SUPPLY to the pilot.

JF17 has an oxygen bottle with a supposed time frame of 3 hours---that means 2 1/2 hours flight time---it does not have an oxygen processing system on the aircraft.

http://www.cobham.com/mission-syste...-generation-systems-obogs/f-16-obogs/docview/

guess what @MastanKhan saheb these kids do not want to know even though they know Tejas LCA MK1 40 on order as of

now have
Python5 HOBS WVR Missile with DASH3 HMDS+HUD+LITENING3 G3 LDPod (same as F16 SUFA)

& EL-M2032 MMR with DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR (same as F16 SUFA)

OBOGS(on board oxygen genrating system) & in flight refuling probe

MK1a as of now (83 on order)

50 plus more rifienments with Israeli EL2052 AESA radar & LRDE made UTTAM AESA in FLIGHT TESTING

 

[kabooter_maila]

guess what @MastanKhan saheb these kids do not want to know even though they know Tejas LCA MK1 40 on order as of

now have
Python5 HOBS WVR Missile with DASH3 HMDS+HUD+LITENING3 G3 LDPod (same as F16 SUFA)

& EL-M2032 MMR with DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR (same as F16 SUFA)

OBOGS(on board oxygen genrating system) & in flight refuling probe

MK1a as of now (83 on order)

50 plus more rifienments with Israeli EL2052 AESA radar & LRDE made UTTAM AESA in FLIGHT TESTING

Be happy then, you finally got a very good military plane in the form of Tejas. Indian air force should be happy too because these Tejas 'WILL' be playing lead role in their war strategy. Far from that, they forced 40+83 tejas down their throat (if that ever happened though). IAF haven't yet found any role for these paper planes because they are waiting for the producer first shift from 'will' to 'have' gear. It's been stuck in that gear (of futuristic claims) for too long now.

Bottom line is if you are happy, we too happen to be happy about that. Isn't that probably the only shared aspect among us?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Be happy then, you finally got a very good military plane in the form of Tejas. Indian air force should be happy too because these Tejas 'WILL' be playing lead role in their war strategy. Far from that, they forced 40+83 tejas down their throat (if that ever happened though). IAF haven't yet found any role for these paper planes because they are waiting for the producer first shift from 'will' to 'have' gear. It's been stuck in that gear (of futuristic claims) for too long now.

Bottom line is if you are happy, we too happen to be happy about that. Isn't that probably the only shared aspect among us?

well i have no intersts in your fighter as it is no threat to us and never will be

i only came and answered here when you guys braought in indian fighter which will or say might never come and fight in pakistan as its a defensive fighter for attack there are half a dozen other types of fighters in india so pakistanies should better talk about them ... isnt it so @MastanKhan & @kabooter_maila .... think about it

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

The revolution started with steam locomotive---. There was a race for the fastest locomotive for passenger trains---and the strongest locomotive for the goods train amongst the different railways in the US---.

You would know that the railways were owned by private owners in the US---.

The race for speed and power and to be number 1 brought in a better product in the market year after year---.

When the gasoline engine came about---same thing happened---motorcycles---car engines---motorcycle racing---auto racing---aircraft engine aircraft racing---.

Behind the greatness of all the american engine technology is RACING---. Racing takes the machine to its maximum capabilities and the one who is a winner had big big monetary rewards.

And the endurance of the machine while it is driven at its maximum rpm's for a longtime tells you about the quality of the product---.

There was money---there was resource---there was brain power---. Every success story from everywhere in the world ended up in the U S---brains from every culture and ethnic group in the world found a home in the U S---.

From WW2 the US found that wars on foreign soils are very good for the economy and for the industrial progress ( the pakistani fools had no clue when the GCC asked for help )---due to need and necessity---so they pushed themselves into a continuous state of war against any country that they could find to go to war with---.

They also learnt that the purpose of the war was not to win---just prolong the war---that would keep the industry going strong---.

The korean war---the cold war---the vietnam war---the afghan war---then iraq war---then afghan war and then iraq war and then Libya and syria wars---.

There is one thing in common in all these war---the american war machine kept moving forward at a blistering pace---it tested all its older weapons in the 1st gulf war---it prepared newer weapons and tested them in the 2nd gulf war---.

Money got poured into weapons systems---and newer and deadlier machine came churning out---.

Now---compare it to china---. China has no experience of modern warfare---.

The only reason it is putting money into newer weapons is due to the fear of war---.

There is no innovation in the chinese industrial complex---there are no chinese engine used for motorcycle racing or for auto racing---there are no racing aircraft engines either or speed boat racing engines either---.

I hope the reader here gets to what I am saying---. The american experience is an extremely unique experience as compared to the chinese experience---.

Has china come a long ways in the last 20 years---off course it has---.

And what else have the wars brought to the american machine---it has brought quality and reliability under extreme duress---.

The americans found out that when you fight a war---your machine has to perform better than the opponents machine and you have to have a massive supply chain to stand behind it---.

So---continuous wars since the late 30's till now---had an exponential effect on the quality and ability of the war machines of the United states---

The best post I've ever read in PDF! Your analysis is profound, and deep understanding of the mentality of both China and USA. The motivation of China and USA developing weapons is totally different! Our goal is to avoid war by developing weapon systems to deter out enemies. But one shall also know: Chinese was a race really good at war from ancient time.

Still remember how we kick USA's arse in Korean War by those weapon system much more inferior?

Do you agree that J10 > JF17? If you agree, then will be a surprise to you that China already cut half of J10C production? The PLAAF currently is really really happy with J16 + J20 combo...All available resource are been pulled towards it. The rumor is that J10C will be stopped complete by 2022...So nothing really wrong with JF17 and J10, they are good light and median fighter. It's J16 + J20 combo bring way too much shock to PLAAF.

That's why PAF is considering Su35, a striker.

Be happy then, you finally got a very good military plane in the form of Tejas. Indian air force should be happy too because these Tejas 'WILL' be playing lead role in their war strategy. Far from that, they forced 40+83 tejas down their throat (if that ever happened though). IAF haven't yet found any role for these paper planes because they are waiting for the producer first shift from 'will' to 'have' gear. It's been stuck in that gear (of futuristic claims) for too long now.

Bottom line is if you are happy, we too happen to be happy about that. Isn't that probably the only shared aspect among us?

It's never IAF's problem, it's goverment failure.

 

[MastanKhan]

The best post I've ever read in PDF! Your analysis is profound, and deep understanding of the mentality of both China and USA. The motivation of China and USA developing weapons is totally different! Our goal is to avoid war by developing weapon systems to deter out enemies. But one shall also know: Chinese was a race really good at war from ancient time.

Still remember how we kick USA's arse in Korean War by those weapon system much more inferior?


That's why PAF is considering Su35, a striker.


It's never IAF's problem, it's goverment failure.

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---. The problem for china is that it does not have any modern day combat experience---.

So---as the americans saying goes---" what are you going to do when the sh-it hits the fan "---.

The problem with the americans is that they don't remember their defeats---because in the end they have won---so---for them---a loss is not a loss.

Their goals and objectives in a a war are totally different than the conventional world view---.

The loss of american troops is of no concern to the US---and neither is the loss of any material---. It has enough male population left on the mainland usa---and it can arm twist its allies into a war---and if there is still a problem of manpower---then the promise of green cards to the Latinos is a good promise that delivers troops in droves---.

The US looks for wars is because it wants to test its weapons---develop better weapons from the test results---use them again and then develop much better weapons from that experience---.

The only time china would be a serious threat to the U S---when the US naval flotilla is hesitant from going thru the south china seas---.

 

[帅的一匹]

When trade stops, there comes the war.

But we have enough patience to keep building up our muscle.

USA is facing a tough opponent. A race that can develop sophisticated weapons and can do business with all around the world.

With same landmass and threefold population.

But I always don't think USA is the number one threat to China, on the opposite they did help China a lot in WW2. The country took away the most landmass from China is the neighbour from the north, nearly 1.5 millions s.q.km. If USA falls, then there might be a conflict between China and Russia. I hope USA stay strong, and keep a clear mind. Of Donald Trump is definitely an idiot.

if I have to choose a leader in this world, I would rather it will be USA than Russia.

It's not to offend, those Latino Americans severely drag down the average IQ of the USA people.

@MastanKhan

Soon USA gonna find out Bahratis is a totally unreliable partner who is always on the fence. A sly opportunist without long term commitment.

 

[araz]

USA created the F-20 Tigershark with exactly such a philosophy in mind. It does not make the aircraft any less capable for the purposes for which it was designed, including the present JF-17.

And the F20 died a painful death which is very sad because if the USAF had supported it might have had a better outcome.
The Chinese did what every Government witb options does, which was to look after ite own interests. JFT being a small plane does not fit into their doctrine of warfare. In fact even if J10 Had not been inducted they might have been perfectly happy with the J11/16 and J20 combo. J10 in its current iteration is their lo option for the lo- mid- hi combo. So why would they buy the JFT? HOWEVER THEY DID MAKE A CONTRACT with the PAF if news coming out of PAF were true to procure 150 units to lower the cost down which they breached. This is the factual situation and No one can fault them for not choosing the JFT over J10. PAF on the other hand opted out of the J10 and will persue a fifth generation option.
A

The single engine fighter plan has been officially shelved.
Apart from the RFP HAL received for 83 Tejas on December last year, Tejas Mk2 is being fervently pushed as well.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/gov...and-f-16-unclear-1819238?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

I assure you Tejas is not given up on in lieu of foreign fighters.
The 5 Tejas inducted till the fall of last year had made over 600 flights, there are 6 Tejas inducted as of now.

It will be good for Tejas to be inducted and then changes made as necessary in blocks. HAL/IAF has typically run into the rut of making changes only to realize the world has moved on. So without inducting the older block they go on to make the newer block. The set backs they have had which is an industrial hazard has lengthened the time of induction which does not help.
A

Do you agree that J10 > JF17? If you agree, then will be a surprise to you that China already cut half of J10C production? The PLAAF currently is really really happy with J16 + J20 combo...All available resource are been pulled towards it. The rumor is that J10C will be stopped complete by 2022...So nothing really wrong with JF17 and J10, they are good light and median fighter. It's J16 + J20 combo bring way too much shock to PLAAF.

The only flaw in this logic is that even US needs small /medium single engined fighters as the backbone of the fleet for availability and cost factors. Reliance on a twin engined a d a stealth fighter to act as the backbone of a fleet is asking for a headache.
I understand the logic and the advantage but it has not worked any where else.
A

 

[MimophantSlayer]

It will be good for Tejas to be inducted and then changes made as necessary in blocks. HAL/IAF has typically run into the rut of making changes only to realize the world has moved on. So without inducting the older block they go on to make the newer block. The set backs they have had which is an industrial hazard has lengthened the time of induction which does not help.

E 'the f#*king' xactly.

All proponents of Tejas had said the same then and are still saying it now.
All that denial and wasted time, aakhir mein kya hua, Tejas ko toh lena hi pada.

If IAF had conceded and had stopped being so obstinate earlier on we would have stabilized Tejas' manufacturing line and improved upon it by now.

Literally every country that can make a fighter has done so, no one has a perfect fighter on day 1.
But no, apparently for the IAF desi maal is just not good enough and is liable to be held to standards far more stringent than foreign stuff.
As they say ''ghar ki murgi daal barabar".

They are only getting this now.