Which country in South Asia will be first to become developed?

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

One of the dumbest analysis I have ever seen. IQ correlates to education. Education correlates to poverty. The idea that brazils IQ is higher than SA countries because of genetical superiority is flabbergasting. India have low income, so low budget which in tern means lower education spending. Which then results is Less IQ. Your logic is so dumb, it's unbelievable. In the US, Indians have the highest per capita income, more than whites, or any other ethnicity or even the jews. China had one of the lowest IQ 40 years ago and now they have the highest IQ in the US. What are you going to tell me? They have become much inferior to superior genetics in 40 years? How dumb are you?

If all goes as they are now, BD IND and PK will surely be developed by 2040 at least in terms of infrastructure, education, poverty, energy and such. And with that, their IQ average will go up with it.

China always had a high IQ....Communism could not take advantage of it..When Chinese were in Capitalistic Taiwan,HK,Singapore,Macau , their IQ capabilities shone forth..Heck Chinese constructed a first class first world country well before China-----Taiwan

Japan always had High IQ...the moment they got introduced to European science in 1853, it took them around 50 years to be first rate superpower

IQ is related to evolution...there has been some increase recent decades (though stagnated and receding) because of far better nutrition and medicine, specific intelligence boosting supplementation (more iodine less fluoride), and better fumigation and hygiene

IQ is heritable regardless of education...look at the Minnesota Identical Twins study..IQ is the most stable quantity known to neuro-psychology

Anyways I was asked for my opinion, I gave it....You may refute it, but there is no need for unnecssary insults or namecalling..............and precisely because of that I refuse entertain any further comments from you..have a nice day and try to be civil

 

[bête noire]

China always had a high IQ....Communism could not take advantage of it..When Chinese were in Capitalistic Taiwan,HK,Singapore,Macau , their IQ capabilities shone forth..Heck Chinese constructed a first class first world country well before China-----Taiwan

Japan always had High IQ...the moment they got introduced to European science in 1853, it took them around 50 years to be first rate superpower

IQ is related to evolution...there has been some increase recent decades (though stagnated and receding) because of far better nutrition and medicine, specific intelligence boosting supplementation (more iodine less fluoride), and better fumigation and hygiene

IQ is heritable regardless of education...look at the Minnesota Identical Twins study..IQ is the most stable quantity known to neuro-psychology

Anyways I was asked for my opinion, I gave it....You may refute it, but there is no need for unnecssary insults or namecalling..............and precisely because of that I refuse entertain any further comments from you..have a nice day and try to be civil

Interesting. Everything good that happened to china or Taiwan is because of their IQ? Not because of their close proximity through sea with the US and Europe. Not because of their favourable geographical location. Not because china has vast amount of natural resources, especially silicone that helped with their tech manufacturing export. Nope, all this because of IQ where you do selective research to support you preconceived biased claims. If calling you dumb once, triggers your thin skin so much after you called the whole south asians low IQ that can never achieve what the Chinese and Whites achieved? Sure, do refrain from spreading your BS throughout this thread. NO need to reply to me as you already said you won't.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

One point be made clear--I have never ever said that South Asians are Low IQ...I only pointed out that the country that has the nearest IQ to South Asia as well as has maximized its development potential is Brazil....Now one may think 87 average IQ is low...I certainly dont

Lots of countries were under the wings of America for a long time--------------such as Turkey,Pakistan...that didnot boost them to developed status...Being under the wings of USSR also didnot bring India's GDP per capita to Russian levels

 

[HeinzG]

I really don't think you are dumb enough to think anyone should compare a city state of Singapore with countries like BD MM PK IND or whatever. Maldives have tourism sector and low population (in contrast, BD is the lowest visited countries on earth per capita). Bhutan has it's hydraulic industry and they never really had any significant conflict to speak of AND their economy isn't that much better anyway. SL is the only country you are right about but as I said before, BD only started to improve in the 1990s while SL started MUCH earlier.

Sri Lanka would have developed into a high income nation if it wasn't for the civil war. The war had dragged us back several decades and the valuable opportunities we had were all long gone.

What about South Korea? They had conflicts with neighbour. They too were dirt poor. Yet developed very fast? How did Vietnam progressed much faster than BD? From 90's improvement has been someone decent but need to do much better. We need double digit growth rate to improve fast. But I don't see us achieving it.

AFAIK Japan got developed because of the Korean war and the South Korea got developed because the Vietnam war. It is essential for any country who are looking to be developed to need a initial injection of hard currency into their economy.

 

[Mage]

AFAIK Japan got developed because of the Korean war and the South Korea got developed because the Vietnam war. It is essential for any country who are looking to be developed to need a initial injection of hard currency into their economy.

Then it seems Pakistan failed to take advantage of Afghan war. Anyway was some sort of war necessary for Singapore to develop as well?

 

[Mage]

in terms of GDP per capita...Brazil is perhaps the limit for all these 3 countries...

So Major cities of these 3 countries would look like Sao Paolo when planned
Major cities of these 3 countries would look like Rio de Janeiro when unplanned

we would have same cleanliness standards by 2040 as Thailand and Brazil
we would have same levels of comptency in terms of plane building as Brazil (Embraer)

We would enter the same cycle of boom and recession/depression when we reach the limits of growth afforded by our genetic IQ

Brazil has been going through this boom and bust cycle for decades as soon as it reached the optimum GDP per capita achievable by an 87 average IQ population

Same with Argentina...which has been going through the boom/bust cycle for a 100 years now since it achieved its maximum GDP per capita as afforded by 93 average IQ


the temperment of South Asians mean crime will never be as high as Brazil except for Pakistan...The violence against women in North West India is a temporary thing as society gets used to female financial and sexual freedom

but the general impression that a white foreign tourist will get regarding material development will not be that different from Brazil (in 2040 that is---right now at least India is leagues behind Brazil)


Personally after having seen the correlation between average IQ and economic growth in a capitalistic setting, I tend to be firmly realistic in my prognostications

Other than High Oil/low population , nothing determines a country's prosperity more than its average IQ
Communism though destroys potential regardless of a race's high IQ..its a shitty system with no incentive

average IQ may be increased through more meat heavy nutrition, fumigation,parasitic load decrease,vaccination, iodized salt...but even that has limits...different races and sub-races tend to have different genetic IQ

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now will these countries still grow after hitting Brazil's level of GDP per capita?..its upto these countries to prove me wrong.....But global warming will eventually wipe out Bangladesh's and a large part of India's gains...so now the question becomes can they even maintain Brazil level of prosperity after reaching it?

India,Pakistan,Bangladesh are all $1,500-$2,000 nominal GDP per capita

Brazil is $8,500 GDP per capita
Thailand $9,000 GDP per capita
Argentina a much whiter country is around $12-13,000 GDP per capita

(all nominal,PPP doesnot count as most important purchases are not local food purchases..you pay more or less international prices for engineering goods even when they are produced in your country --if you want the same specs and trim levels that is)

so we still have an extreme long way to go before we can even snigger at Brazil. I will be in my 50s when India is there and I am quite quite young...so hold your horses!!!!!!!!!
Brazil held both World Cups and Olympics within a space of few years...I expect India to host both the FIFA World Cup and the Olympics in the 2040s.................Africa got to host the World Cup only because South Africa has 5 million highly highly competent white people

What's with this obsession with white people?

Anyway lets consider some data.

South Korea avg IQ is 106.
Per capita 27k.
USA avg IQ 98
Per capita 57k.
Why such difference? You can say South Korea started late. But then considering IQ is hereditary then why these superior/smarter people started late? Todays South Koreans or their ancestors lived there in the past. Then why was it dirt poor in the 50's? And why even worse before that so lower IQ japs humiliated them? I would attribute South Korea's rapid developments to their hard work, dedication and work ethics. Not so much to their IQ.

Estonia avg IQ 99
Per capita 17k.
Finland avg IQ 99
Per capita 45k.

Now these two countries are in the same region and have a lot common. Also both are whites. So why so much difference in income?

Coming back to our own region,
Sri Lanka avg IQ 79.
Afghanistan avg IQ 84.
Afghans are more white than Lankans.
So who is better off here? Sorry I don't see Afghanistan overtaking Sri Lanka in my lifetime.

Well, IQ plays a part. But for me the thing more important for a country to develop is their mindset.

Yes. Mindset of a country decides which direction the country would go. When you do something, you do it at the expense of something else. Because I'm pursuing a degree in computer science, I can't pursue a degree in microbiology. A country has to prioritize. Pakistanis considers themselves martial races. They have had martial laws many times. Because Pakistanis prioritize their army before anything else, they are fighting one war after another. If Pakistan today prioritize their peoples well being over anything else, you'll see their per capita rising faster than others. But their focus is on somewhere else. If India wants hindutva more than anything else then they will get it. But at the expense of something else. If all the resources spent on protecting cows were spent on protecting humans, wouldn't there be at least one less murder? If today Bangladesh votes Jamaat Islami in power they would islamize the country. If people wants then this would happen. If everyone starts demanding sharia in Bangladesh today then even the ruling party will implement it some way. However the fact that Jamaati Islami could never hope to win more than 10 seats out of 300, proves that BD people don't want it. If you focus on your army, 10 years later you'll see your army is better off than the people. You can see this for North Korea, Pakistan and even India. But if you focus on development, 10 years later you'll see that your income, quality of life, life expectancy and even IQ has improved. So if you focus on development then don't set your bar up to Brazil only.

That's my point. I don't mean any insult to any religion or ideology.

 

[HeinzG]

Then it seems Pakistan failed to take advantage of Afghan war. Anyway was some sort of war necessary for Singapore to develop as well?

Afgan war and Pakistan was different to Korean war and Japan. US didn't required any logistical support from Pakistan. US already had allies that would provide it for them without investing in Pakistan.

The story of Singapore is also different. Singapore was already developed by the British when it was handed over to the locals. What the locals had to do was to continue the age old tradition and then expand according to the world economic conditions.

 

[AndrewJin]

Afgan war and Pakistan was different to Korean war and Japan. US didn't required any logistical support from Pakistan. US already had allies that would provide it for them without investing in Pakistan.

The story of Singapore is also different. Singapore was already developed by the British when it was handed over to the locals. What the locals had to do was to continue the age old tradition and then expand according to the world economic conditions.

it's not. Singapore was a giant slum when British left.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

What's with this obsession with white people?

Anyway lets consider some data.

South Korea avg IQ is 106.
Per capita 27k.
USA avg IQ 98
Per capita 57k.
Why such difference? You can say South Korea started late. But then considering IQ is hereditary then why these superior/smarter people started late? Todays South Koreans or their ancestors lived there in the past. Then why was it dirt poor in the 50's? And why even worse before that so lower IQ japs humiliated them? I would attribute South Korea's rapid developments to their hard work, dedication and work ethics. Not so much to their IQ.

Estonia avg IQ 99
Per capita 17k.
Finland avg IQ 99
Per capita 45k.

Now these two countries are in the same region and have a lot common. Also both are whites. So why so much difference in income?

Coming back to our own region,
Sri Lanka avg IQ 79.
Afghanistan avg IQ 84.
Afghans are more white than Lankans.
So who is better off here? Sorry I don't see Afghanistan overtaking Sri Lanka in my lifetime.

Well, IQ plays a part. But for me the thing more important for a country to develop is their mindset.

Yes. Mindset of a country decides which direction the country would go. When you do something, you do it at the expense of something else. Because I'm pursuing a degree in computer science, I can't pursue a degree in microbiology. A country has to prioritize. Pakistanis considers themselves martial races. They have had martial laws many times. Because Pakistanis prioritize their army before anything else, they are fighting one war after another. If Pakistan today prioritize their peoples well being over anything else, you'll see their per capita rising faster than others. But their focus is on somewhere else. If India wants hindutva more than anything else then they will get it. But at the expense of something else. If all the resources spent on protecting cows were spent on protecting humans, wouldn't there be at least one less murder? If today Bangladesh votes Jamaat Islami in power they would islamize the country. If people wants then this would happen. If everyone starts demanding sharia in Bangladesh today then even the ruling party will implement it some way. However the fact that Jamaati Islami could never hope to win more than 10 seats out of 300, proves that BD people don't want it. If you focus on your army, 10 years later you'll see your army is better off than the people. You can see this for North Korea, Pakistan and even India. But if you focus on development, 10 years later you'll see that your income, quality of life, life expectancy and even IQ has improved. So if you focus on development then don't set your bar up to Brazil only.

That's my point. I don't mean any insult to any religion or ideology.

If you take all the countries and cut out the countries that were under communism or have extreme oil wealth, then there is a high correlation...High correlation doesnot mean it will be 1:1 all the time anything above 0.6 correlation or 0.7 correlation is a strong correlation ....
Yes and High IQ east Asians though extremely rich donot have same level as those of white countries ...This is largely due to their risk averse attitude when it comes to science, engineering, technology and Business in comparison to whites...Even now the declining West dreams about autonomous robots, automation and building up colonies in Mars and the larger Galaxy...look at Western Science Fiction ...........Asians though High IQ have lower testosterone than whites, this makes them copy and improve upon white inventions but they cannot invent new sciences themselves....this has been adequately addressed in the following paper

Far East Asians Bright but Not Curious


Now regarding Estonia--------it is coming off a disastrous Communist regime..Communism destroys any economic growth...give may be around 10-15years and Estonia would have caught up..In 1991 Estonia had the same GDP per capita as a sub-Sahara Black

Afghans are surely not coherent enough to be a nation-state...Bengali unity keeps Bangladesh as a nation state..Islamic unity keeps Pakistan as a nation state....Indigenous Hindu unity is what keeps India chugging along as a nation state ...The last 10-15 years India has been solving problems faster and dealing with its various drawbacks faster than any other country in South Asia

Divide Afghanistan into around 3-4 coherent compact units and Afghanistan's daughter nations mayjust takeover Sri Lanka in around 2 decades..........Coherency as a nation state is the first order of business...and as you rightly pointed out the martial culture,veneration of military and Islam provides that for Pakistan

Refer to Education as the Elixir of Growth III. There is a 0.43 correlation between the GDP (PPP) per capita of a country with its PISA/TIMMS scores, which rises to a stunning 0.84 once countries with a post-Communist legacy (low outliers), resource windfalls (high outliers), or offshore financial industries that constitute the bulk of their GDP (high outliers) are removed from the same. (Any correlation of >0.5 is an excellent one in social science). This implies a fairly rigid glass ceiling on GDP per capita for any one country in relation to its IQ. It’s largely invisible, as few people appreciate the importance of human capital to growth, but it’s most certainly there.

Through A Glass Ceiling Darkly: Racial IQ Disparities and the Wealth of Nations

Education as the Elixir of Growth III

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

If you take all the countries and cut out the countries that were under communism or have extreme oil wealth, then there is a high correlation...High correlation doesnot mean it will be 1:1 all the time anything above 0.6 correlation or 0.7 correlation is a strong correlation ....
Yes and High IQ east Asians though extremely rich donot have same level as those of white countries ...This is largely due to their risk averse attitude when it comes to science, engineering, technology and Business in comparison to whites...Even now the declining West dreams about autonomous robots, automation and building up colonies in Mars and the larger Galaxy...look at Western Science Fiction ...........Asians though High IQ have lower testosterone than whites, this makes them copy and improve upon white inventions but they cannot invent new sciences themselves....this has been adequately addressed in the following paper

Far East Asians Bright but Not Curious


Now regarding Estonia--------it is coming off a disastrous Communist regime..Communism destroys any economic growth...give may be around 10-15years and Estonia would have caught up..In 1991 Estonia had the same GDP per capita as a sub-Sahara Black

Afghans are surely not coherent enough to be a nation-state...Bengali unity keeps Bangladesh as a nation state..Islamic unity keeps Pakistan as a nation state....Indigenous Hindu unity is what keeps India chugging along as a nation state ...The last 10-15 years India has been solving problems faster and dealing with its various drawbacks faster than any other country in South Asia

Divide Afghanistan into around 3-4 coherent compact units and Afghanistan's daughter nations mayjust takeover Sri Lanka in around 2 decades..........Coherency as a nation state is the first order of business...and as you rightly pointed out the martial culture,veneration of military and Islam provides that for Pakistan




Through A Glass Ceiling Darkly: Racial IQ Disparities and the Wealth of Nations

Education as the Elixir of Growth III

Young man,

Very solid line of reasoning. However, you need to see other factors as well. I would say go back five hundred years, do a little time travel... What do you see in the West, in Americas, in Asia? Travel from that ponit of departure and come to the present day...and then gaze the future. What do you SEE?

I do agree with the starting point you have rasied. I am sure you will delight us with a broader, more comprehensive thesis. (@Jacob Martin you should be here my friend... Tooth ache?)

Regarding the title of this thread by our resident thought leader @Kaptaan .... well, I fear if the present momentum continues none of the states will cross middle income barrier. NONE. EVER.

What do you and @Kaptaan think would be fudamental requirements, social, political, general Human Condition (genetic make up/IQ) that MIGHT enable for any of these countries to break the barrier?

As has been the case throughout the history of Indus Lands and your good country... what historic model might provide a forecast to build upon discourse here? Per Capita poverty/health Index needs to be developed here... things would get interesting from then on... Try.

As it appears now... India will have islands of opulance/wealth in vast seas of grinding poverty. Pak will have the same but with lesser degree of grinding poverty. BD can never break the middle income barrier. SL will be a middle income and would stay there.

No offence to anyone/race/religion/ethnicity... but Model/Computer says NO.

Over to you both to come with something oringinal here to read!

Kindly don't disappoint.

Regards,

Mangus

PS. Testosterone arguement is good. However, Africans have highest degree of production of this vital hormoe... and yet???

You are on the right track...hormonal baseline will provide you even better modelling kit. Think about Thyroid in Indian/SA context as well. Good going!

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@Mangus Ortus Novem

Sir...Yes Africans have the highest teststerone and have duly proved what raw testosterone achieves by being the most fearsome men on earth (Heavyweight Boxing Champions in history have been majority blacks..and with the popularity of MMA in the last 20 years Blacks are ready to recapture the Heavyweight UFC crown as well---that too a homeless black from Africa) ............Testosterone matters a LOT when surviving and beating down the opponent in individual fighting .............

But one has to remember that Blacks have extremely less average IQ, due to genetics and exacerbated in Africa due to poor nutrition,medicine,fumigation,vaccination,non availability of iodized salt and extremely high parasitic load

present average IQ of blacks in Africa is 70....genetic IQ is somewhere around mid 80s
present average IQ of non-white caucasoids is between low 80s to 90 genetic IQ is 93
present average IQ of whites is around 100 genetic IQ is also 100

one needs good nutrition, medicine, vaccination,iodine supplementation to close the gap between genetic and contemporary IQ

Blacks evolved in Africa and therefore were not exposed to the harsh Ice Age winter in the North which selected for higher intelligence and lighter skin colour among the Africanswho made it to Europe and became forefather of Europeans...Blacks were alsonot exposed to Neanderthal DNA which seems to boost brain size (brain size not skull size which blacks have big)......Malaria is also rampant in sub saharan Africa which selects for sickle cell mutation among blacks ...this mutation in turn dampens Intelligence/IQ.....on top of that evolutionarily it wasnot efficient to have big brains in hot Africa as big brains require way more cooling


Point I am making is that whites had the most optimal balance of IQ and Testosterone

Too High IQ ...you may become like low Testosterone non innovative East Asians
Too High Testosterone....one may become less intelligent Africans with more interest in fighting and communion with the opposite gender

on top of that Agriculture in Africa was done through out history primarily by women (horticulture), so there was a s--ual selection among blacks, with those men having bigger male member, defined musculature and strong behinds, rythmic dancing abilities being selected by the women for s--


in other parts of the world, agriculture was done primarily by the men, so there was a natural selection..with higher IQ men who could till fields, build homesteads, pallisades and houses choosing the women

s--ual selection vs natural selection dichotomy is the most interesting ín the natural world



Now the question arises if blacks are so fearsome in singular combat, how come they were almost always enslaved? Well to defend your race you need not singular combat but superiority in warfare


Warfare is as much influenced by IQ as it is by Testosterone (commanding tens of thousands of men, joint co-ordination, development, production and delivery of weapons, battle tactics, feigned retreat, supply line management etc)

------------------------This post was done in haste Sir----detailed more structured post coming up later after others chime in--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@Mangus Ortus Novem

Sir...Yes Africans have the highest teststerone and have duly proved what raw testosterone achieves by being the most fearsome men on earth (Heavyweight Boxing Champions in history have been majority blacks..and with the popularity of MMA in the last 20 years Blacks are ready to recapture the Heavyweight UFC crown as well---that too a homeless black from Africa) ............Testosterone matters a LOT when surviving and beating down the opponent in individual fighting .............

But one has to remember that Blacks have extremely less average IQ, due to genetics and exacerbated in Africa due to poor nutrition,medicine,fumigation,vaccination,non availability of iodized salt and extremely high parasitic load

present average IQ of blacks in Africa is 70....genetic IQ is somewhere around mid 80s
present average IQ of non-white caucasoids is between low 80s to 90 genetic IQ is 93
present average IQ of whites is around 100 genetic IQ is also 100

one needs good nutrition, medicine, vaccination,iodine supplementation to close the gap between genetic and contemporary IQ

Blacks evolved in Africa and therefore were not exposed to the harsh Ice Age winter in the North which selected for higher intelligence and lighter skin colour among the Africanswho made it to Europe and became forefather of Europeans...Blacks were alsonot exposed to Neanderthal DNA which seems to boost brain size (brain size not skull size which blacks have big)......Malaria is also rampant in sub saharan Africa which selects for sickle cell mutation among blacks ...this mutation in turn dampens Intelligence/IQ.....on top of that evolutionarily it wasnot efficient to have big brains in hot Africa as big brains require way more cooling


Point I am making is that whites had the most optimal balance of IQ and Testosterone

Too High IQ ...you may become like low Testosterone non innovative East Asians
Too High Testosterone....one may become less intelligent Africans with more interest in fighting and communion with the opposite gender

on top of that Agriculture in Africa was done through out history primarily by women (horticulture), so there was a s--ual selection among blacks, with those men having bigger male member, defined musculature and strong behinds, rythmic dancing abilities being selected by the women for s--


in other parts of the world, agriculture was done primarily by the men, so there was a natural selection..with higher IQ men who could till fields, build homesteads, pallisades and houses choosing the women

s--ual selection vs natural selection dichotomy is the most interesting ín the natural world



Now the question arises if blacks are so fearsome in singular combat, how come they were almost always enslaved? Well to defend your race you need not singular combat but superiority in warfare


Warfare is as much influenced by IQ as it is by Testosterone (commanding tens of thousands of men, joint co-ordination, development, production and delivery of weapons, battle tactics, feigned retreat, supply line management etc)

------------------------This post was done in haste Sir----detailed more structured post coming up later after others chime in--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Indian friend,

Promising start!

There was a dialouge thread where @Jacob Martin , your countryman, and I were having a productive discourse. Please, visit it and see if you find it thrilling enough intellectually to join this dialouge.

I do await your composition when it arrives. All eyes!

Regarding European evolution... might be opportune to look at the alternative science as well... out of Africa didn't directly land in the Alps... something interesting for young mind to dig up...

Let me find that link and I will update this post for you.

With kind regards,

Mangus

PS. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/declare-india-a-hindu-rashtra.502350/page-5#post-9619987

If you have time please see the exchange in this dialouge... @Juggernaut_is_here

 

[Musalman]

Sorry None of the South Asian countries can become developed countries unless they mend their differences. In my view either all three of them will become developed countries together or none of them will attain this status!!!!

 

[AndrewJin]

South Asia has one country already developed, Supa Powa, declared by the Powan president in 2012z

 

[Mista]

The story of Singapore is also different. Singapore was already developed by the British when it was handed over to the locals. What the locals had to do was to continue the age old tradition and then expand according to the world economic conditions.

The British certainly helped us, but we were still nowhere near developed when they left. We were poorer than the world's average when the British left in the late 1950s. Literacy is only 52% in 1957 as many adults were illiterate migrants from China, India and Malaysia.

We certainly wouldn't developed today if we just 'continue the age old tradition' of our seaport business during the British times. The entire transport and storage industry makes up only around 8% of our GDP, and that it includes airports, post and courier, warehousing and storage, and other forms of transport. Our largest industry is actually manufacturing which makes up 20% of GDP.