VCheng
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A proviso, though: this observation is highly dependent on the environment in which it is made.
What have you learned on PDF?
- Thread starter Well.wisher
- Start date
A proviso, though: this observation is highly dependent on the environment in which it is made.
The Diplomat
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I learn something new about people everyday! CSS is a great path to take.
Best of luck future Pakistani delegate!
Imran Khan
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Well.wisher
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Major saab .no, u taught others.
Cant stop laughing
duhastmish
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Too much religion can make people blind towards humanity. They think of god so much that they forget their own kind.
Also all the hate still can’t change my belief of “hope in future”.
Also all the hate still can’t change my belief of “hope in future”.
Chacha is very clued in to his Muslim brothers.
And sisters.
Cheers, Doc
Way too pricey here. Over a lac for a two day weekend (6 sessions of track time + theory).
Cheers, Doc
One can only speak authoritatively about the environment and milieu one grows up and lives in.
Anything else is armchair expert-ing. Not that I have anything fundamental against that per se ....
Cheers, Doc
terry5
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That there's loads of Pakistanis who've sold out once they've moved out & look down at real Pakistanis like we're some jungle bunnies
Also noticed Azad Kashmiris have more love for Pakistan and its people than these sold out uncle toms .
Also noticed Azad Kashmiris have more love for Pakistan and its people than these sold out uncle toms .
The Diplomat
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Hi Doc,
You quoted me saying the following (available on top), I don't get what your trying to say. Can you please explain.
Thanks!
Pakistani E
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What have I learned? Not much, but being on PDF has certainly reinforced a lot of my thoughts and feelings.
That is, no matter where you go, humans will always be self-centered, selfish, narrow minded, anti-intellectual, aloof, prickly individuals. Always demanding rights far beyond what they deserve, while actively proselytizing against giving rights to others.
And the most damning thing of it all, no matter what you do, what you say or what argument you use, what good you point to, what detriment you show, there is little you can do to change their minds.
Prophets, scientists, reformers, dictators, democrats, at the end of the day a human would always disregard all these people and will cling to the most basic human attributes described above.
That is, no matter where you go, humans will always be self-centered, selfish, narrow minded, anti-intellectual, aloof, prickly individuals. Always demanding rights far beyond what they deserve, while actively proselytizing against giving rights to others.
And the most damning thing of it all, no matter what you do, what you say or what argument you use, what good you point to, what detriment you show, there is little you can do to change their minds.
Prophets, scientists, reformers, dictators, democrats, at the end of the day a human would always disregard all these people and will cling to the most basic human attributes described above.
lastofthepatriots
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Yeahs that's what I'm saying. Nerds take this forum too seriously.
Pakistani E
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Joe Shearer
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I really 'joined' PDF on the 26th of November some years ago, in a state of shock. Over a few days from that bloody day, it became an obsession to me to find out who these people were who would do something so savage. I joined an online forum called All Things Pakistan. It was a shock to find that Pakistanis actually were decent people, very polite (compared to Indians I'd met online), nice to each other with an old worldly charm, but very conservative, and very obsessed with themselves as a country. I got to know and like D_a_n, and Bloody Civilian, and Septic Tank, and Indians who had joined for the same reason as I, to find out more about these strange beings from outer space, Indians like Gorki and Hayyer Sahib.
Over time, some Pakistani friends persuaded me to take a look at PTH, that they kept talking about, and from posts in which they kept posting fragments, and that was such a wonderland. The intellectual level was very high, and for the first time in my life, I felt that I was among people who could give as well as they got, and with whom I had to be at my best, for fear of embarrassing myself. Those days were sheer bliss. The several rounds of discussions that we had there, where I was one of only three or four Indians accepted in, on the origins of Pakistan and the Two Nation Theory, were on the level of a post-graduate seminar. A side result was that I became, and remain, a firm devotee of Mohammed Ali Jinnah.
Unfortunately, the administrators of PTH believed obsessively in free speech, with no restraints or controls. Septic Tank was notionally in administrative charge, and he refused to step in and intervene when a trickle of Hindu bigots became a stream and finally a flood, entering every discussion, polluting them, and behaving in a foul way. Some of us, heart-sick and terribly upset at the destruction of an intellectual home away from home, moved out and formed our own little group; two members of PDF are members of that group, and had joined there from PTH direct. I was led here by recommendations of a Pakistani friend, a young ex-PAF officer, who had come to understand me very well, and thought I would fit in well.
What have I learnt on PDF? That there are good Pakistanis, who are generally in the majority conservative, religious and decent, polite people; that there is a minority, but a very strong one, that is exactly like us Indian liberals, except that they too, to my befuddlement, are religious. It's a bit difficult to get used to such rootedness in religion for a liberal Indian; it still is. A discussion on religion, or a specific religion, is quite possible among Indian friends, and happens from time to time, with no nuclear explosions. That is simply not possible here. That there are bad Pakistanis, and stupid Pakistanis, almost like bad Indians and almost like stupid Indians, but with a twist that needs to be kept in mind, always. That the bad Pakistanis are divided into those who live in Pakistan, and an awful lot that live abroad, and will fight to the death of the last resident Pakistani. I have also found two or three really stupid ones, but far fewer than stupid Indians.
I found that this forum also was vulnerable to attack by Hindu bigots. For some time, some months ago, it seemed that they too would flood all the rest out, and for some time, kept away, concentrating on straightening out my messed up work life. To my utter surprise, the administration had cleaned it up and got rid of some of the most rabid sanghis, and it is again a very tolerant atmosphere, except for the Pakistani bigots.
I learnt that people respected a logical, clearly structured argument, and that they respected facts and a clinically neutral and balanced point of view. I learnt that they loved information about arcane and less well-known subjects, provided it was not being put up to be Trojan Horses, to provide a hidden platform for degrading and humiliating a set of people. On being presented for the greater knowledge of all, such a presentation was hugely acceptable.
I learnt that I could, over time, develop a brutal side, and come to hate bigotry to an extent that was obviously not functional; traces of this intolerance continue till today, and make me lose my temper at bigots who are also stupid; most of them are. I learnt that there are Pakistanis who are nice people in themselves, even admirable people, but who hate India and Indians - all Indians - and almost cannot help themselves. Those I leave alone, strictly alone; they have their reasons, no doubt (typically traumas from Partition, or from war-time experience, or from the shock of 71, or from the death(s) of near and dear ones in violence that they attributed to Indian sponsorship of violence), mistaken reasons and unfounded reasons, in my own opinion, but they are firmly bound to these reasons and to their unthinking hatred, so I leave them alone.
There were a grimly surviving ten or twelve of us, about 2/3 of them Modi supporters but not Sanghis, who found ourselves isolated and alone in the worst days gone past, but not all of us are active, due to the presence of a nasty new bunch of Pakistanis who mirror the bhakts exactly, forming green bhakts. I hope that they will return, once they find that change has come, and the Mods are holding their own, although quite palpably far outnumbered by their task at hand. I hope my friends the decent Indians, will take heart from the sudden and unexpected presence of young Indians who are balanced and rational, although, like that older lot, some of them still continue to be Modistas.
I learnt that 2 out of 3 'A's that formed the famous Pakistani joke about themselves in the 50s survive into this contemporary age, but that America is out of favour. Amusing, considering what a bad time we Indians had due to this strong alliance, that continues at a level invisible to the public eye, between the two military establishments. Amusing, also, that whoever constitutes their deep state has not taken any heed of what happened, or taken warning to the future, or that what is happening today is a repetition, word for word, of what happened 50 or 60 years ago. The same pattern, the same cast, the same events, and no statesman coming to the rescue.
I found that there is a strong contingent of liberal and of conservative Pakistanis with whom Indians like me have a lot in common, as much in real life as on the net.
Lastly, there is an increasing sense of having said all that there is to say. 'Thanks for all the fish'.
Over time, some Pakistani friends persuaded me to take a look at PTH, that they kept talking about, and from posts in which they kept posting fragments, and that was such a wonderland. The intellectual level was very high, and for the first time in my life, I felt that I was among people who could give as well as they got, and with whom I had to be at my best, for fear of embarrassing myself. Those days were sheer bliss. The several rounds of discussions that we had there, where I was one of only three or four Indians accepted in, on the origins of Pakistan and the Two Nation Theory, were on the level of a post-graduate seminar. A side result was that I became, and remain, a firm devotee of Mohammed Ali Jinnah.
Unfortunately, the administrators of PTH believed obsessively in free speech, with no restraints or controls. Septic Tank was notionally in administrative charge, and he refused to step in and intervene when a trickle of Hindu bigots became a stream and finally a flood, entering every discussion, polluting them, and behaving in a foul way. Some of us, heart-sick and terribly upset at the destruction of an intellectual home away from home, moved out and formed our own little group; two members of PDF are members of that group, and had joined there from PTH direct. I was led here by recommendations of a Pakistani friend, a young ex-PAF officer, who had come to understand me very well, and thought I would fit in well.
What have I learnt on PDF? That there are good Pakistanis, who are generally in the majority conservative, religious and decent, polite people; that there is a minority, but a very strong one, that is exactly like us Indian liberals, except that they too, to my befuddlement, are religious. It's a bit difficult to get used to such rootedness in religion for a liberal Indian; it still is. A discussion on religion, or a specific religion, is quite possible among Indian friends, and happens from time to time, with no nuclear explosions. That is simply not possible here. That there are bad Pakistanis, and stupid Pakistanis, almost like bad Indians and almost like stupid Indians, but with a twist that needs to be kept in mind, always. That the bad Pakistanis are divided into those who live in Pakistan, and an awful lot that live abroad, and will fight to the death of the last resident Pakistani. I have also found two or three really stupid ones, but far fewer than stupid Indians.
I found that this forum also was vulnerable to attack by Hindu bigots. For some time, some months ago, it seemed that they too would flood all the rest out, and for some time, kept away, concentrating on straightening out my messed up work life. To my utter surprise, the administration had cleaned it up and got rid of some of the most rabid sanghis, and it is again a very tolerant atmosphere, except for the Pakistani bigots.
I learnt that people respected a logical, clearly structured argument, and that they respected facts and a clinically neutral and balanced point of view. I learnt that they loved information about arcane and less well-known subjects, provided it was not being put up to be Trojan Horses, to provide a hidden platform for degrading and humiliating a set of people. On being presented for the greater knowledge of all, such a presentation was hugely acceptable.
I learnt that I could, over time, develop a brutal side, and come to hate bigotry to an extent that was obviously not functional; traces of this intolerance continue till today, and make me lose my temper at bigots who are also stupid; most of them are. I learnt that there are Pakistanis who are nice people in themselves, even admirable people, but who hate India and Indians - all Indians - and almost cannot help themselves. Those I leave alone, strictly alone; they have their reasons, no doubt (typically traumas from Partition, or from war-time experience, or from the shock of 71, or from the death(s) of near and dear ones in violence that they attributed to Indian sponsorship of violence), mistaken reasons and unfounded reasons, in my own opinion, but they are firmly bound to these reasons and to their unthinking hatred, so I leave them alone.
There were a grimly surviving ten or twelve of us, about 2/3 of them Modi supporters but not Sanghis, who found ourselves isolated and alone in the worst days gone past, but not all of us are active, due to the presence of a nasty new bunch of Pakistanis who mirror the bhakts exactly, forming green bhakts. I hope that they will return, once they find that change has come, and the Mods are holding their own, although quite palpably far outnumbered by their task at hand. I hope my friends the decent Indians, will take heart from the sudden and unexpected presence of young Indians who are balanced and rational, although, like that older lot, some of them still continue to be Modistas.
I learnt that 2 out of 3 'A's that formed the famous Pakistani joke about themselves in the 50s survive into this contemporary age, but that America is out of favour. Amusing, considering what a bad time we Indians had due to this strong alliance, that continues at a level invisible to the public eye, between the two military establishments. Amusing, also, that whoever constitutes their deep state has not taken any heed of what happened, or taken warning to the future, or that what is happening today is a repetition, word for word, of what happened 50 or 60 years ago. The same pattern, the same cast, the same events, and no statesman coming to the rescue.
I found that there is a strong contingent of liberal and of conservative Pakistanis with whom Indians like me have a lot in common, as much in real life as on the net.
Lastly, there is an increasing sense of having said all that there is to say. 'Thanks for all the fish'.
django
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Initially I used to brisk through PDF intermittently catching up on strategic affairs, international relations etc until the emergence of a certain thread that had me completely hooked, https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistani-models-and-actresses.374641/ apart from "husn parasti" I have found threads by esteemed blogger @Kaptaan and equally erudite @Tergon18 pertaining to the contrast in history of the Indus and Ganga region most informative, I learned much despite having some popular level knowledge on the subject, a honourable mention should also go to @Mian Babban for his blogs on medieval history of the Ghandaran region and finally whatever the subject one can certainly expect a excellent and thoughtful blog by @Joe Shearer imo probably the finest mind on PDF......NB: Their is no probably about it.Kudos SignalianThank you...
But dont drag me into itapni baat karo
Kiya seekha....aur.....kiya kiya seekhna hay
Oh forget itWhat confusions djealouso ?
Time you had your teait's a code word between me n django ..
Ive his secret that's y I call him djealouso , he has my secret that's y he calls me well -jealouser .,
.Kudos W-J
