Featured What are we fighting for?

[jaibi]

What are we fighting for?

After a couple of months of a very hard area a couple of us got a few days off and decided to head back to civilization which was filled with a jam-packed car, constant tea stops for our weary souls and countless packs of smokes puffed. Good times. I was accompanying a couple of officers and our senior most offered us to enjoy the scenery of a city that shall remain unnamed. After resting there for a while in our jam-packed rooms and smoking a few more packs with tea that was called, kanjar kisam ki chaye; that’s the best tea I’ve ever had and what it exactly is would only be reveled after proper identification of every member who asks me what it is.

The local resident of the city, an accompanying officer took us sight seeing and we went along enjoying everything. Believe me, after months of being off road and hiking flat carpeted roads are a blessing so are street lights; I was amazed as to why I had never noticed how beautiful civilization actually is. You really appreciate it once you’ve lived without it for a while. It changes you forever.

Later during the day we went to a local university where the officer who was our tour guide had a brother completing their higher education. We enjoyed a good tea break and got some company from the senior students and the young faculty in the cafeteria.

Somewhat normal chitchat

It all started with harmless banter and some conversations which are akin to all Pakistanis: complaining about weather, hating politicians, being experts on sports, uncovering hidden truths and ending with a personal story or networking.

However, then the conversation turned bitter; it’s what you have heard all over: Army eats the budget, Pakistan’s problems are because the military doesn’t let democracy flourish, we’re fighting a military war to a political problem, all of us are millionaires just because of the uniform and it got vile.

Having come fresh from the frontlines it wasn’t unnatural that these comments would get some serious heat back. The words and cigarettes flared; after having come from a combat zone I didn’t really want to participate in another one.

Then, the senior most amongst us asked me to give my opinion, having noticed that I was uncharacteristically quiet and the only one amongst the officers who had a university degree (he later clarified that perhaps the students and officers were speaking very different languages according to him).

Speaking holistically

My view actually comes from that perspective which he clarified; I did understand the students and the officers even if I didn’t agree with them. My point was simple: wars are always humanly costly affairs. I wish we lived in a world where it was never needed but that’s being idealistic. I asked the students how would they talk when just the way they dress and live is unacceptable to the people we’re fighting? They haven’t seen warfare and the toll it has on the population caught in the middle and I told them that those civilians choose to come to us and not them; do you really think they’re not making that choice by considerable deliberation? If we were with the people who’re fighting us then we wouldn’t be talking at all: the students would have a knife meet their jugular or a bullet in their head. There’re no arguments there.

Secondly, I asked my colleagues, why are fighting, sir? If we snub the right to verbalize complaints of our citizenry then how are we any different than those we’re fighting? We’re defending an ideal; we’re fighting to protect the rights of these students to study and explore the world. The fact they feel they can speak to us and this openly is precisely a marker of our victory and we need to respect that. That’s what we’re fighting for.

There was silence at the table as I sipped my tea (not as good as the one I got at our quarters but still good enough).

I asked the students to consider this that we’re not very different from them: just a few years ago we were sitting in institutions same as them. We are your army, not anyone else’s. When you speak to us like we’re strangers then it doesn’t resonate well with us. If we talk with a little more understanding you’d find that we aren’t really that different.

Much to say the mood stayed somber but as we left; my senior said that this is the best thing that came out from this, ‘what are we fighting for? All of us need to ask that question as a citizen of this country. I guess we’re fighting to keep that conversation possible, eh boy?’

That’s the question that I’d like to leave you with as well but with the consideration of being realistic when you try to answer that.

As always, happy foruming, folks.

 

[jaibi]

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@Foxtrot Alpha @Hachiman (suitable?)

 

[Pappa Alpha]

What are we fighting for?

After a couple of months of a very hard area a couple of us got a few days off and decided to head back to civilization which was filled with a jam-packed car, constant tea stops for our weary souls and countless packs of smokes puffed. Good times. I was accompanying a couple of officers and our senior most offered us to enjoy the scenery of a city that shall remain unnamed. After resting there for a while in our jam-packed rooms and smoking a few more packs with tea that was called, kanjar kisam ki chaye; that’s the best tea I’ve ever had and what it exactly is would only be reveled after proper identification of every member who asks me what it is.

The local resident of the city, an accompanying officer took us sight seeing and we went along enjoying everything. Believe me, after months of being off road and hiking flat carpeted roads are a blessing so are street lights; I was amazed as to why I had never noticed how beautiful civilization actually is. You really appreciate it once you’ve lived without it for a while. It changes you forever.

Later during the day we went to a local university where the officer who was our tour guide had a brother completing their higher education. We enjoyed a good tea break and got some company from the senior students and the young faculty in the cafeteria.

Somewhat normal chitchat

It all started with harmless banter and some conversations which are akin to all Pakistanis: complaining about weather, hating politicians, being experts on sports, uncovering hidden truths and ending with a personal story or networking.

However, then the conversation turned bitter; it’s what you have heard all over: Army eats the budget, Pakistan’s problems are because the military doesn’t let democracy flourish, we’re fighting a military war to a political problem, all of us are millionaires just because of the uniform and it got vile.

Having come fresh from the frontlines it wasn’t unnatural that these comments would get some serious heat back. The words and cigarettes flared; after having come from a combat zone I didn’t really want to participate in another one.

Then, the senior most amongst us asked me to give my opinion, having noticed that I was uncharacteristically quiet and the only one amongst the officers who had a university degree (he later clarified that perhaps the students and officers were speaking very different languages according to him).

Speaking holistically

My view actually comes from that perspective which he clarified; I did understand the students and the officers even if I didn’t agree with them. My point was simple: wars are always humanly costly affairs. I wish we lived in a world where it was never needed but that’s being idealistic. I asked the students how would they talk when just the way they dress and live is unacceptable to the people we’re fighting? They haven’t seen warfare and the toll it has on the population caught in the middle and I told them that those civilians choose to come to us and not them; do you really think they’re not making that choice by considerable deliberation? If we were with the people who’re fighting us then we wouldn’t be talking at all: the students would have a knife meet their jugular or a bullet in their head. There’re no arguments there.

Secondly, I asked my colleagues, why are fighting, sir? If we snub the right to verbalize complaints of our citizenry then how are we any different than those we’re fighting? We’re defending an ideal; we’re fighting to protect the rights of these students to study and explore the world. The fact they feel they can speak to us and this openly is precisely a marker of our victory and we need to respect that. That’s what we’re fighting for.

There was silence at the table as I sipped my tea (not as good as the one I got at our quarters but still good enough).

I asked the students to consider this that we’re not very different from them: just a few years ago we were sitting in institutions same as them. We are your army, not anyone else’s. When you speak to us like we’re strangers then it doesn’t resonate well with us. If we talk with a little more understanding you’d find that we aren’t really that different.

Much to say the mood stayed somber but as we left; my senior said that this is the best thing that came out from this, ‘what are we fighting for? All of us need to ask that question as a citizen of this country. I guess we’re fighting to keep that conversation possible, eh boy?’

That’s the question that I’d like to leave you with as well but with the consideration of being realistic when you try to answer that.

As always, happy foruming, folks.

Good post.

 

[V. Makarov]

We don't fight for a cause. We only find excuses to initiate conflict.

The suffering (of the soldier and the poor) and humiliation (of women and helpless citizen) is just a side effect. We might never understand why Allah has ordained "war" between human beings. Incidentally, every major Prophet of Allah had to shed blood and conquer men, in order to establish the law of Allah on the land. If Allah did not want infighting and bloodshed, the civilizations could have been designed to retain the knowledge of the law of Allah, but only an "AZAAB" can remind them of that.

Modern humans initiate wars in order to retain economic, political, "strategic" and geographical advantage. We have created weapons to destroy civilizations yet we still do not understand why we fight in the first place.

The 8th episode of the TV series Band of Brothers is named "Why We Fight". In that episode, the Americans talk about why their men entered Europe. Why would a coal miner cross the Atlantic to sit in a trench in Bastogne under heavy German artillery fire? None of the soldiers knew except what they read in the home newspapers given to them in the morning which said : "...Germans are Bad." The episode showed the German concentration camps and the scenes of mass executions of innocent as a reason "why we fight". Then USA proceeds to nuke two Japanese cities killing hundreds of thousands of people in a few seconds.

Who owns the higher moral ground in war when the "concept" of war and bloodshed is installed in human brain by Allah. We will be fighting till the day of Qiyamat without knowing the reason. Its just how it is. From every one's point of view, they are fighting the "righteous" war.

As far as Pakistan's reason to fight war is concerned, we fight for the same reason as everyone else : to survive in the anarchic world. The anarchy of this world is a phenomenon given to us by Allah. Everyone must pursue power and arm themselves to teeth in order to retain "honour" and ensure survivability. If you suddenly think that war is not the answer to solve problems, every nation around will think that its the only possible way.

For these confusing reasons, I never discuss with others about why we fight. I could give them reasons such as "Kashmir lena hai" , "Afghanistan ko secure karna hai" , "CPEC ki security ensure karni hai". But everyone already knows this, yet still they are confused. Let us exist in this confusion because in the grand scheme of things, we dont know why humans must shed blood to survive.

 

[fatman17]

I'm not a man of many words, but I do believe that the current narratives you have mentioned are built up by the media and the majority of our people who watch the media regularly and religiously follow their favourite media personalities, actually believe every word they say. They don't have their own opinions esp if in a conversation or argument, they will conveniently quote the media or a newspaper. We know very well how accurate our media is! ?. There is hardly any fact checking out there and the worst part is quoting things / remarks out of context to drive home their viewpoint. The minority which avoids these media shows, thankfully have their own understanding of how things are in our country. For the media and the social media, it's all about highlighting the negativity, even if there is a positive development, they will find the negativity in that also. Thankfully I don't watch local TV, there are exceptions to the rule of course. I'm 66 years old and remember every major event since the war of 65, and I can say that it hasn't been a very smooth ride, mostly bumpy but somehow this country has survived not entirely because of the army generals or the bhuttos and sharifs, but by the resilience of the common man, because he / she really understands what it takes to survive and live under some terrible living conditions, no water, no food sometimes, no health, no education, no electricity and so on. These things are a given in our constitution, but do the elites pay any attention to these issues? Hardly IMO. like PMIK says, the elites are not affected or effected by such debilitations. I used to argue with my late mamu, that Pakistan was made by the elites, for the elites, of the elites and he used to get very upset. He was a Muslim league worker under Mr. Jinnah. Our current PM is a non conformist, and that is the reason the elites, the establishment, the media HATE him because he wants to overturn the applecart which has lasted for 70+ years, and there are waderas and jaghirdars within his own party who don't want him to succeed. Our constitution and our laws are made by these very same people who want to ensure that the applecart continues on its merry way. generally rich people don't go to jail in this country, think about that for a second! PMIK is my age, he hasn't many years left in him. When he is gone and the applecart wins and the resilient people continue to get crushed by the harsh reality of life, they will all say "maybe he was right ".

END OF RANT

What are we fighting for?

After a couple of months of a very hard area a couple of us got a few days off and decided to head back to civilization which was filled with a jam-packed car, constant tea stops for our weary souls and countless packs of smokes puffed. Good times. I was accompanying a couple of officers and our senior most offered us to enjoy the scenery of a city that shall remain unnamed. After resting there for a while in our jam-packed rooms and smoking a few more packs with tea that was called, kanjar kisam ki chaye; that’s the best tea I’ve ever had and what it exactly is would only be reveled after proper identification of every member who asks me what it is.

The local resident of the city, an accompanying officer took us sight seeing and we went along enjoying everything. Believe me, after months of being off road and hiking flat carpeted roads are a blessing so are street lights; I was amazed as to why I had never noticed how beautiful civilization actually is. You really appreciate it once you’ve lived without it for a while. It changes you forever.

Later during the day we went to a local university where the officer who was our tour guide had a brother completing their higher education. We enjoyed a good tea break and got some company from the senior students and the young faculty in the cafeteria.

Somewhat normal chitchat

It all started with harmless banter and some conversations which are akin to all Pakistanis: complaining about weather, hating politicians, being experts on sports, uncovering hidden truths and ending with a personal story or networking.

However, then the conversation turned bitter; it’s what you have heard all over: Army eats the budget, Pakistan’s problems are because the military doesn’t let democracy flourish, we’re fighting a military war to a political problem, all of us are millionaires just because of the uniform and it got vile.

Having come fresh from the frontlines it wasn’t unnatural that these comments would get some serious heat back. The words and cigarettes flared; after having come from a combat zone I didn’t really want to participate in another one.

Then, the senior most amongst us asked me to give my opinion, having noticed that I was uncharacteristically quiet and the only one amongst the officers who had a university degree (he later clarified that perhaps the students and officers were speaking very different languages according to him).

Speaking holistically

My view actually comes from that perspective which he clarified; I did understand the students and the officers even if I didn’t agree with them. My point was simple: wars are always humanly costly affairs. I wish we lived in a world where it was never needed but that’s being idealistic. I asked the students how would they talk when just the way they dress and live is unacceptable to the people we’re fighting? They haven’t seen warfare and the toll it has on the population caught in the middle and I told them that those civilians choose to come to us and not them; do you really think they’re not making that choice by considerable deliberation? If we were with the people who’re fighting us then we wouldn’t be talking at all: the students would have a knife meet their jugular or a bullet in their head. There’re no arguments there.

Secondly, I asked my colleagues, why are fighting, sir? If we snub the right to verbalize complaints of our citizenry then how are we any different than those we’re fighting? We’re defending an ideal; we’re fighting to protect the rights of these students to study and explore the world. The fact they feel they can speak to us and this openly is precisely a marker of our victory and we need to respect that. That’s what we’re fighting for.

There was silence at the table as I sipped my tea (not as good as the one I got at our quarters but still good enough).

I asked the students to consider this that we’re not very different from them: just a few years ago we were sitting in institutions same as them. We are your army, not anyone else’s. When you speak to us like we’re strangers then it doesn’t resonate well with us. If we talk with a little more understanding you’d find that we aren’t really that different.

Much to say the mood stayed somber but as we left; my senior said that this is the best thing that came out from this, ‘what are we fighting for? All of us need to ask that question as a citizen of this country. I guess we’re fighting to keep that conversation possible, eh boy?’

That’s the question that I’d like to leave you with as well but with the consideration of being realistic when you try to answer that.

As always, happy foruming, folks.

 

[Zarvan]

This budget thing has started to piss me off. First of all it's not 80 % in fact we all know now it's not more than few percent of total budget. @Tipu7 can tell better. As for wars and why we fight well we fight simply because this is not the ideal world. We need to stop believing everything our text books taught us about perfect world, it doesn't exist. You have to be prepared for all eventualities as other humans will want to dominate you. I am stunned even after looking at what is happening to Kashmiris and people of Palestine on daily bases and people are still this dumb to question our defence budget.

We spent on defence because we don't want our children to be slaves of other nations, we spend on defence because we can't allow our women raped our men killed and our children orphaned by ruthless enemies. We spend on defence because ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW ordered us over and over again in Quran and Sunnah I am amazed on how people who call themselves Muslims can question spending on defence. The only issue which can and should be raised that defence budget should be monitored so it is spend on buying weapons, getting trained and taking care of soldiers not ending up in someone's pocket.

Last but not the least this world was never meant to be perfect it is a ruthless world where you compete for the limited sources this world has, you compete to dominate both on individual level as well as on national level and you fight because if there are good people in this world there are also criminals and those who on drop of a hat won't mind capturing your land killing you or throwing you out. So basically Live free or Die Hard.

@jaibi @PanzerKiel @fatman17 @Horus @Arsalan @Sulman Badshah

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors.

Qur'an 2:190

 

[araz]

I'm not a man of many words, but I do believe that the current narratives you have mentioned are built up by the media and the majority of our people who watch the media regularly and religiously follow their favourite media personalities, actually believe every word they say. They don't have their own opinions esp if in a conversation or argument, they will conveniently quote the media or a newspaper. We know very well how accurate our media is! ?. There is hardly any fact checking out there and the worst part is quoting things / remarks out of context to drive home their viewpoint. The minority which avoids these media shows, thankfully have their own understanding of how things are in our country. For the media and the social media, it's all about highlighting the negativity, even if there is a positive development, they will find the negativity in that also. Thankfully I don't watch local TV, there are exceptions to the rule of course. I'm 66 years old and remember every major event since the war of 65, and I can say that it hasn't been a very smooth ride, mostly bumpy but somehow this country has survived not entirely because of the army generals or the bhuttos and sharifs, but by the resilience of the common man, because he / she really understands what it takes to survive and live under some terrible living conditions, no water, no food sometimes, no health, no education, no electricity and so on. These things are a given in our constitution, but do the elites pay any attention to these issues? Hardly IMO. like PMIK says, the elites are not affected or effected by such debilitations. I used to argue with my late mamu, that Pakistan was made by the elites, for the elites, of the elites and he used to get very upset. He was a Muslim league worker under Mr. Jinnah. Our current PM is a non conformist, and that is the reason the elites, the establishment, the media HATE him because he wants to overturn the applecart which has lasted for 70+ years, and there are waderas and jaghirdars within his own party who don't want him to succeed. Our constitution and our laws are made by these very same people who want to ensure that the applecart continues on its merry way. generally rich people don't go to jail in this country, think about that for a second! PMIK is my age, he hasn't many years left in him. When he is gone and the applecart wins and the resilient people continue to get crushed by the harsh reality of life, they will all say "maybe he was right ".

END OF RANT

Sir fatman17.
I have not seen you write as much as you have done so good that it is all coming out.
I had a lot of scattered thoughts and thought i will compose something and write to respond.
I think on an individual level and when that individual has power to lead a nation then the three basic causes of struggle remain the same, Woman , power( including money and wealth in its multiple and diverse forms) and Land(resources in modern day).In one or another form this has been the reason of all wars and disputes from the time of Abel and Caine. A modern terminology that has crept in is a fight between systems and cultures. However, I think the basic reasons for all wars remains the same 3 as quoted above.
I had to think about what the Quran says about war and in my very humble understanding of the Quran I think there are 2 reasons which All the Mighty and Wise gives.
A. To make the glory of Allah apparent to ALL. The means to this seem to be two:
i) Establish the rule of Law by implementing the commands of Allah Azza wa jal
ii) To establish your ascendancy over others to an extent that they would not dare to cause chaos or disobey Allah and his commands
B. Allah says in the Quran that we change the situation between nations so that one nation does not turn into Tyrants.
Allah admonishes the Muslim by saying that in continuous Jehad is your survival. Allah furhter commands us to not kill ourselves knowingly( the ulema are in agreement that this ayat pertains to jehad) However jehad is so multi faceted one can argue that it means struggling to establish and follow the way of Alla Azza Wa Jal.
I also thought about the history of the Prophets and contrary to the Quatation above I could not find ANY incidence of a Rasool of Allah engaging in war other than Rasool Allah SAW. There were no wars associated with Nooh, Idrees, Ibraheem, Ishaq, Ismail, Musa and Essa Alaihimus Salam. The only war was between Taloot Rahimahu Allah and Jaloot in which Dawood AS played a part. Even that was a war that was confined to conquering Jerusalem. To the best of my knowledge the jews never went beyond conquering Jerusalem.(I would be happy to be corrected in this regard). I had a long thought about why that was the case and felt(Purely my own thinking with my weak mind) that as Allah Azza WaJal had not completed HIS deen, these prophets were not commanded to indulge in war to spread the deen.
Rasool Allah SAW and Wars.
There appear to be 2 phases in the life of our Hadi and teacher Rasool Allah SAW. I think we need to look at this phase carefully to look at how the evolution of islam and its philosophy occured.
PHASE 1
As the state of Madina was formulated, it became a matter of survival to ensure that they were not attacked. However Rasool Allah SAW interestingly true to his title of Rehmatul lil Aalameen entered into contracts with surrounding tribes. These included the 3 tribes of the Jews, and other pagans. The basis of this was common defence of Madina and lands belonging to the Jews and the pagans. However, it seems there was diversity in the thought process when it came to the Quraish of Mecca. There are various incidents where He SAW sent out people to spy as well as to loot the caravans of the Meccans and their affiliates. the idea was to gain much needed resources and to create hurdles in the trade which sustained the Quraish. This resulted in Badr, where the Kuffar were soundly beaten and then a year later Uhud where the muslims were beaten and lost 70 Sahaba. Interestingly Allah in his account of the battle of Uhud states 2 or three reasons for defeat.
i) lack of discipline and greed for wealth.
ii) Give Muslims a jolt to remind them that victory comes from Allah Azza wa Jal and not from their numbers and to make them strong willed so they can bear losses.
iii) To separate the Momin from the Munafiq so that the Creed of the followers of Allah themighty and Wise remains pure.
This lead to the really difficult battle of Ahzab( the trench) where the mettle of the muslims was sternly tested and again victory came from intervention of Allah. This led to the discovery of deceit of the jews and their subsequent defeat at khaibar. The Jews were stupid in that they did not agree with Rasool Allah SAW and wanted Saad ibn Maaz??RA to deal with them. Saad RA adjudicated on the basis of Hebrew law and therefore the Males were killed and the women were enslaved.
PHASE 2:
Phase 2 starts post Sulahe hudaibiyya and sees the Muslim forces in a much more dominant role. On the expiry of the pact of hudaibiyah, Mecca was invaded and conquered without much resistance. Rasool Allah SAW advanced towards taif and conquered it. Surah e taubah came and with it an ultimatum to all Kuffar to either vacate their lands or accept islam. Not only was Hijaz conquered but advancements were made towards Najd and tribes conquered as they had transgressed their pacts. The more intriguing development were the letters sent out to Egypt, Shham(and consequently the Romans), and Iran. It can be said that subsequent battles were to extend the rule of Allah over most humanity. I must also emphasize htat even though lands were conquered, no attempts were made to forcibly convert people to islam. This remained the pattern during the times of AbuBakr, Umar and Uthman( the first half of his Khlafah( May Allah Azza waJal be pleased with them All and make us follow their way{Ameen})
Projecting this On to pakistan:
The difficulty in deciphering the situation with Pakistan is from the following:
A) Why did our elders create Pakistan?
B) what are the founding principles of our state?
The 2 questions are interlinked and one answer should lead to a logical solution of the other.
I am assuming that we all agree that our elders created Pakistan so we could live our lives as MUSLIMS independently. If this statement is agreeable to all then in my view the only way for a Muslim to live IN A MUSLIM STATE is according to the commands of Allah Azza Wa Jal. This is in my view a critical mistake in the early formative years of Pakistan. So you ask for a land from allah so you can live your lives in peace. The condition is the establishment of Islam in all forms of life. Allah says in the Quran " the only Deen (way of Life ) in front of Allah is ISlam and if you follow any other way of life(alternate system) it will never be acceptable to Alllah Azza waJal. In the Quran Allah highlights that deviation away from Allah's deen will lead you to :
i) divide and argue amongst yourselves.
ii) Have fear of others inflicted upon you.
iii) be at loss(a lowly existence possibly influenced by others) in this world and in the hereafter.
There are ramifications of this statement mainly by quoting thew state of Turkey and asking why they have progressed and we have not ? The answer lies in our main ask from Allah Azza Wa Jal for A MUSLIM STATE
So why the long diatribe?
The question of why we fight is so diverse I had to include some aspects of why I felt humanity has fought and why we fought in our glory days and why Pakistan needs to fight/or fights. The question of why Pakistan fights needs to be ascertained. Till we establish our reason for existence we cannot establish what and why we are fighting. All that can be said is whenever the Muslims have sat down and stopped struggling for establishing Allah's deen we have suffered defeats and our carefully crafted empires have come down like a house of cards.
A
Brothers:
if you can critique this bit I can move on to how we can formulate ourselves to fight.It seems whether we like it or not we will have to fight for our very existence.
A

 

[VCheng]

That’s the question that I’d like to leave you with as well but with the consideration of being realistic when you try to answer that.

At the risk of always being contrarian, let me answer the question that you posed so eloquently with another question: What is it that the average citizen expects from the State, and what manifestations might the persistent denial of such expectations might take?

Yes, the Army will defend the borders to keep the freedoms to ask such questions alive, but there is far more to a State in terms of a social contract between its powers and its citizenry at large. A prolonged negation of that social contract will lead to fissures for others to manipulate according to their own purposes, as we can see now.

The solution lies in repairing the foundations, not papering over the cracks in the shaky building above.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Interestingly Allah in his account of the battle of badr states 2 or three reasons for defeat.

Sir I think you mean Battle of Uhud, Badr was won decisively by Muslims . In Uhud Greed , Pleasure of World and subordination took over which leads for those 50+ men to leave their posts to collect the Maal-e-Ghnimat , which opens up the way for Khalid Bin Waleed to make his move, interesting thing is that Khalid remains undefeated even when he fought against the Rasool Allah and his companions that include some of the bravest people like ALI , SAAD Bin Abi Waqas .
I am working on a detailed response for this thread, hopefully you give it a read .

 

[araz]

Sir I think you mean Battle of Uhud, Badr was won decisively by Muslims . In Uhud Greed , Pleasure of World and subordination took over which leads for those 50+ men to leave their posts to collect the Maal-e-Ghnimat , which opens up the way for Khalid Bin Waleed to make his move, interesting thing is that Khalid remains undefeated even when he fought against the Rasool Allah and his companions that include some of the bravest people like ALI , SAAD Bin Abi Waqas .
I am working on a detailed response for this thread, hopefully you give it a read .

Thank you. Error corrected. Gents can I have your reviews and advice soon. @VCheng perhaps you might also want to review the post and advise.

Sir I think you mean Battle of Uhud, Badr was won decisively by Muslims . In Uhud Greed , Pleasure of World and subordination took over which leads for those 50+ men to leave their posts to collect the Maal-e-Ghnimat , which opens up the way for Khalid Bin Waleed to make his move, interesting thing is that Khalid remains undefeated even when he fought against the Rasool Allah and his companions that include some of the bravest people like ALI , SAAD Bin Abi Waqas .
I am working on a detailed response for this thread, hopefully you give it a read .

Think of the main question. I have keopt it succinct. please dont diversify more and develop the concept if you agree with it.
A

 

[jaibi]

That's an excellent question, sir and my point exactly to the citizenry as well. For me it's simple to make Pakistan a better home for her people and by that I mean all her people whether we agree with them wholly or not.

At the risk of always being contrarian, let me answer the question that you posed so eloquently with another question: What is it that the average citizen expects from the State, and what manifestations might the persistent denial of such expectations might take?

Yes, the Army will defend the borders to keep the freedoms to ask such questions alive, but there is far more to a State in terms of a social contract between its powers and its citizenry at large. A prolonged negation of that social contract will lead to fissures for others to manipulate according to their own purposes, as we can see now.

The solution lies in repairing the foundations, not papering over the cracks in the shaky building above.

Sir, I agree with you a central part of any development we may have is by making sure that we're being critical of the information being fed to us. Coming over to PDF after half a decade away makes it seem like we're now more than ever not wanting to listen to views which we may disagree upon and focusing solely on issues with a very narrow vision. That is disturbing; that's why I wanted to share this experience here. It's good to see you being so eloquent in your 'rant' though I'd call it brutal honest truths that need to be digested by everyone.

I'm not a man of many words, but I do believe that the current narratives you have mentioned are built up by the media and the majority of our people who watch the media regularly and religiously follow their favourite media personalities, actually believe every word they say. They don't have their own opinions esp if in a conversation or argument, they will conveniently quote the media or a newspaper. We know very well how accurate our media is! ?. There is hardly any fact checking out there and the worst part is quoting things / remarks out of context to drive home their viewpoint. The minority which avoids these media shows, thankfully have their own understanding of how things are in our country. For the media and the social media, it's all about highlighting the negativity, even if there is a positive development, they will find the negativity in that also. Thankfully I don't watch local TV, there are exceptions to the rule of course. I'm 66 years old and remember every major event since the war of 65, and I can say that it hasn't been a very smooth ride, mostly bumpy but somehow this country has survived not entirely because of the army generals or the bhuttos and sharifs, but by the resilience of the common man, because he / she really understands what it takes to survive and live under some terrible living conditions, no water, no food sometimes, no health, no education, no electricity and so on. These things are a given in our constitution, but do the elites pay any attention to these issues? Hardly IMO. like PMIK says, the elites are not affected or effected by such debilitations. I used to argue with my late mamu, that Pakistan was made by the elites, for the elites, of the elites and he used to get very upset. He was a Muslim league worker under Mr. Jinnah. Our current PM is a non conformist, and that is the reason the elites, the establishment, the media HATE him because he wants to overturn the applecart which has lasted for 70+ years, and there are waderas and jaghirdars within his own party who don't want him to succeed. Our constitution and our laws are made by these very same people who want to ensure that the applecart continues on its merry way. generally rich people don't go to jail in this country, think about that for a second! PMIK is my age, he hasn't many years left in him. When he is gone and the applecart wins and the resilient people continue to get crushed by the harsh reality of life, they will all say "maybe he was right ".

END OF RANT

 

[Baghial]

What are we fighting for?

After a couple of months of a very hard area a couple of us got a few days off and decided to head back to civilization which was filled with a jam-packed car, constant tea stops for our weary souls and countless packs of smokes puffed. Good times. I was accompanying a couple of officers and our senior most offered us to enjoy the scenery of a city that shall remain unnamed. After resting there for a while in our jam-packed rooms and smoking a few more packs with tea that was called, kanjar kisam ki chaye; that’s the best tea I’ve ever had and what it exactly is would only be reveled after proper identification of every member who asks me what it is.

The local resident of the city, an accompanying officer took us sight seeing and we went along enjoying everything. Believe me, after months of being off road and hiking flat carpeted roads are a blessing so are street lights; I was amazed as to why I had never noticed how beautiful civilization actually is. You really appreciate it once you’ve lived without it for a while. It changes you forever.

Later during the day we went to a local university where the officer who was our tour guide had a brother completing their higher education. We enjoyed a good tea break and got some company from the senior students and the young faculty in the cafeteria.

Somewhat normal chitchat

It all started with harmless banter and some conversations which are akin to all Pakistanis: complaining about weather, hating politicians, being experts on sports, uncovering hidden truths and ending with a personal story or networking.

However, then the conversation turned bitter; it’s what you have heard all over: Army eats the budget, Pakistan’s problems are because the military doesn’t let democracy flourish, we’re fighting a military war to a political problem, all of us are millionaires just because of the uniform and it got vile.

Having come fresh from the frontlines it wasn’t unnatural that these comments would get some serious heat back. The words and cigarettes flared; after having come from a combat zone I didn’t really want to participate in another one.

Then, the senior most amongst us asked me to give my opinion, having noticed that I was uncharacteristically quiet and the only one amongst the officers who had a university degree (he later clarified that perhaps the students and officers were speaking very different languages according to him).

Speaking holistically

My view actually comes from that perspective which he clarified; I did understand the students and the officers even if I didn’t agree with them. My point was simple: wars are always humanly costly affairs. I wish we lived in a world where it was never needed but that’s being idealistic. I asked the students how would they talk when just the way they dress and live is unacceptable to the people we’re fighting? They haven’t seen warfare and the toll it has on the population caught in the middle and I told them that those civilians choose to come to us and not them; do you really think they’re not making that choice by considerable deliberation? If we were with the people who’re fighting us then we wouldn’t be talking at all: the students would have a knife meet their jugular or a bullet in their head. There’re no arguments there.

Secondly, I asked my colleagues, why are fighting, sir? If we snub the right to verbalize complaints of our citizenry then how are we any different than those we’re fighting? We’re defending an ideal; we’re fighting to protect the rights of these students to study and explore the world. The fact they feel they can speak to us and this openly is precisely a marker of our victory and we need to respect that. That’s what we’re fighting for.

There was silence at the table as I sipped my tea (not as good as the one I got at our quarters but still good enough).

I asked the students to consider this that we’re not very different from them: just a few years ago we were sitting in institutions same as them. We are your army, not anyone else’s. When you speak to us like we’re strangers then it doesn’t resonate well with us. If we talk with a little more understanding you’d find that we aren’t really that different.

Much to say the mood stayed somber but as we left; my senior said that this is the best thing that came out from this, ‘what are we fighting for? All of us need to ask that question as a citizen of this country. I guess we’re fighting to keep that conversation possible, eh boy?’

That’s the question that I’d like to leave you with as well but with the consideration of being realistic when you try to answer that.

As always, happy foruming, folks.

OUR SUPERIORS FEED US THE LIES EVERY DAY

BUT WE HAVE A HARD TIME DIGESTING THEM, BECAUSE WE R THERE TO FOLLOW THE RULE
SET BY THE LIERS THEMSELF..

EVERY COUNTRY HAS AN ARMY

PAK ARMY HAS A COUNTRY.(PAKISTN)..

 

[King Julien]

The fight has always been "us" (me) vs "them" (you) ingrained into our genes- primitive mind / software of humans. If you'd consider the struggles we've been through in ~5000 years irrespective of the rapid advances of the human race in recent history; Our primitive mind only feels safe when we are around people we identify with.

1.) You, your family, your cousins, your second cousins, your city, your state, your nation-- further your religion etc.

Even if you let go these identities and there is Just you in Cave 1 and me in Cave 2
It's Cave1 vs Cave2

 

[YeBeWarned]

From quite some time I was thinking about what is exactly the state of Pakistan, what was it suppose to be ? Maybe its coming from the situation which arise in Pakistan over a small issue of Not building a Mandir in Capital where two extremists lock their horns and did hard to define what Pakistan and its soul suppose to be, What I am about to write will upset many on this forum but if you see it from my prospect maybe you will understand .

I think the delimma we see with Pakistan or I dare say Islamic Republic of Pakistan is today is not new, I think that confusion was bound to happen because the Founder of Pakistan himself to some degree was confused in his own understanding of what he wants this Khudad-e-Mumliqat to be . It is important to understand the 2 figures before we even understand the concept of Pakistan, Jinnah and Iqbal .

Lets start with Jinnah, A man who open his eyes in a wealthy powerful family, who spend much of his time in UK and life style so lavish that people can only dream of, when Jinnah was going from the transformation of becoming a Mature man from a Adult, he is experience a life in British rule which to some extend was a poor depiction of the western Democracy, but he saw them to be the global power which they were and their ability to conquer and rule their subjects while controlling their people through a non Violent ways . Now I will skip and move on to the time of when Jinnah makes his entry in the world of Politics, and he joined in Congress and pushed the idea of a united India which is more secular, he joined in Politics of congress because he wants to create a empire or state like the British where he saw people from all backgrounds , ethnicity and religion to come and study and put their efforts which benefits the State , He knows that individual capacity can only be harness to its best when it applies to a larger effect of a collective effort done by all subjects which is then directed/controlled by the state for their own goals and ambition. Jinnah's dreams of a secular and united India was shattered when he was shown the ground reality of marginalized Muslims which were kept uneducated by British through a systematic approach . Here i must insist that Jinnah at this Point was not a religious man and still perusing a goal of more Secular society modeled on UK where he grow up, but things change and they change rapidly and so fast that Jinnah couldn't wrap his head around the change he realized that he is now the part off, Iqbal enter the scene from a more Fundamentalist Islamic Approach and anyone who is similar with Iqbal and his writing its not hard to know that his idea of a successful states comes only through the Islamic Ideology which stands in the direct confrontation with the modern day Democracy and secularism .

When Iqbal Approach the Jinnah , Jinnah was a defeated man who was boo'ed out from congress by a more hard Line Hindu's, he must have realized that the secularism is just a cover up but deep in the roots of what Congress is looking is towards more Hindu dominant state after the British leave, but Jinnah must have realized that Muslims on contrary to Hindu are less educated, holds little to no power and holds less Govt'al Position , hence leading them through the mirror of a Strict Islamic view point will be hard and so hard that it can even shake the likes of Jinnah . Iqbal also realize that Jinnah is secular but his defeated dream of a secular India has put him in more precarious position where he has 2 options , 1) Stay in UK and become a world renounce Lawyer and 2) Take the leadership of Muslims, give them a state where they can live free with dignity, And We'all know which Option Jinnah picked . Here its very important to mentioned that the interaction between Jinnah and Iqbal was very limited, they were not associates for like decades where they understand the View point of other , hence When Iqbal approach Jinnah he must have given him a heads up about fundamental Islamic Ideology but its safe to assume that Jinnah was not a expert of either Quran or Hadeeth hence I will give him the benefit of doubt that why he was to some extend confused or maybe the people who decipher Jinnah make this mistake and Jinnah was clear in his actions.

Upon Jinnah's return he has a much clearer goal , Fight for the Muslims and give them a new land and leadership to rally behind, a man with a more secular agenda with a United India Dream is now holding the Alam of Islam and demanding a separate country for them, it was indeed a nightmare for those Hindu who were waiting for the periods such as Ashoka's or Mahabharata , these Fantasy worlds or societies were long lost in the Nani Daddi Stories of fairy tales among the Hindus . Jinnah and his approach towards the Pakistan was a constant battle within himself because on one side his mind was set up on the success of Western Democracy and Secularism but on the contrary the people whom he is trying to lead are up for a different system, he has to come up with something fast before this all falls apart . After the Iqbal Jinnah was once again left in a difficult situation, so he took a more Balance approach where he tries to change hearts and minds of Muslims towards a more secular Islamic state where they will be living with their Hindu, Sikh and Christian neighbors without compromising on their own religion practices . I think that is where the people who study Jinnah make the mistake, they portray him as a old self of his who was secular and wanting a more secular style country but when he invoke the Law of Allah aka Quran to be the guidance and main constitution of Pakistan he make a clear choice, I refused to believe that Jinnah was dumb enough to even understand the relationship of Islam as a strictly Monotheist religion to a Pagan Idol worshipers . It is also important to mention here that Jinnah's situation was much more complicated by the religious scholars of that time whom he can not trust to a degree where they will reinterpretate the Quran/Hadeeth to create laws which will govern this newly build State .

Now I will once again skip more stuff and leave if for those who has any questions regarding them , i will be happy to respond .. Anyways, The modern day Pakistan and its issues can all be traced back to the same confusion in which Jinnah left us, it was very similar to the same Confusion Allah SWT left the Muslim ummah after the departure of Muhammad SAW without appointing the successor , hence we know what happened within next few hundred years . Jinnah left the nation with a confusion of if the state will become a more Secular country much alike India or it will become a Islamic state where Minorities are living in peace with their rights given to them but under a limited capacity granted to them by the Quran and Sunnah, Allah surely does not like those who cross their limits in any way. Both separate approaches were adopted by different class of people in the Pakistani society , and it was such a chaotic confusion that one can see the example of two Army Generals who ruled the Pakistan and both are credited with changing the paradigm of Pakistani Society , Ayub Khan was a secular General and his way of governing was way different that the Zia , Zia was much more Fundamentalist Muslim and he did his best to transformed Pakistan into a More Shariah Law Governed country, what we saw as Hadood ordinance and Qazi courts all of their seeds were planted by the Zia Govt .

Pakistan over the years become polarized, but it never came out of that confused state of who we are as Nation and how we are supposed to live our lives and with under which law ? The Dilemma of Pakistani's today is not much different than the dilemma of Jinnah where we all have some uncle , phuppi , mammy and chahcy in West who constantly bombarded our ears with how their lives changes in US or EU, how nice people are over there, how we are free to go to mosques, and how they their way of Governing the people is so successful that even people who went their with no education , no money/resources were able to create a life worth living . Maybe it is because that the definition of a successful life or A Perfect Society under God has changed over the years for people and their minds, there was a Time when people literally surrender their desires and Wills to Almighty to get inner peace and they were called Muslims , today all we have are the slaves who are subjected to their own desires, materialistic world and all of us refused to reflect on our own roots .

Army of Pakistan is nothing but a extension of Pakistani society , but a different branch .. they indeed are people who come among the people of Pakistan hence their approach to what kind of Pakistan they wanted or leave for their coming generation matters, but we live in a time when if a Officer even dare mentioned about any of such topic, our media followed by these so called NGO's battered the institution with labels like Extremists and Fundamentalist, I am asking them why ? Don't these Officers have family or kids they want to leave a Pakistan for them ? if they are from among our nation than why their opinion over a sensitive topic become so much taboo that now these officers are scared to come out to disclose their utmost loyalty to their religion and country ? how come we are now to a point where your view of Islam is seen as a Anti Jinnah Pakistan, and if you are for Pro Jinnah Pakistan you are a Anti Islam ? Did we ever ask this question to ourselves ? No and that is why we are still a confused nation who is losing this precious time and people over something which needs to be straighten out long time ago, Jinnah once said " Think 1000 times before making a Decision, But once you make the Decision Stand on it like a 1000 man ". Pakistan's destiny can never ever be adjoin with the western democracy and no matter how much our people wear western style clothing , listen to their Music , adopted a more tolerant approach in the end the conflict within themselves will always takes over which will leads them to be neither secular nor religious .

Lets call in the Cavalry here, I think y'all gonna enjoy this thread .. @Joe Shearer @HRK @SQ8 @Nilgiri @PanzerKiel

To be continued ..

Think of the main question. I have keopt it succinct. please dont diversify more and develop the concept if you agree with it.
A

take my apologies in advance if my posts goes little to all the way off topic, of course my understanding off things is far lesser than many senior members here .

I'm not a man of many words, but I do believe that the current narratives you have mentioned are built up by the media and the majority of our people who watch the media regularly and religiously follow their favourite media personalities, actually believe every word they say. They don't have their own opinions esp if in a conversation or argument, they will conveniently quote the media or a newspaper. We know very well how accurate our media is! ?. There is hardly any fact checking out there and the worst part is quoting things / remarks out of context to drive home their viewpoint. The minority which avoids these media shows, thankfully have their own understanding of how things are in our country. For the media and the social media, it's all about highlighting the negativity, even if there is a positive development, they will find the negativity in that also. Thankfully I don't watch local TV, there are exceptions to the rule of course. I'm 66 years old and remember every major event since the war of 65, and I can say that it hasn't been a very smooth ride, mostly bumpy but somehow this country has survived not entirely because of the army generals or the bhuttos and sharifs, but by the resilience of the common man, because he / she really understands what it takes to survive and live under some terrible living conditions, no water, no food sometimes, no health, no education, no electricity and so on. These things are a given in our constitution, but do the elites pay any attention to these issues? Hardly IMO. like PMIK says, the elites are not affected or effected by such debilitations. I used to argue with my late mamu, that Pakistan was made by the elites, for the elites, of the elites and he used to get very upset. He was a Muslim league worker under Mr. Jinnah. Our current PM is a non conformist, and that is the reason the elites, the establishment, the media HATE him because he wants to overturn the applecart which has lasted for 70+ years, and there are waderas and jaghirdars within his own party who don't want him to succeed. Our constitution and our laws are made by these very same people who want to ensure that the applecart continues on its merry way. generally rich people don't go to jail in this country, think about that for a second! PMIK is my age, he hasn't many years left in him. When he is gone and the applecart wins and the resilient people continue to get crushed by the harsh reality of life, they will all say "maybe he was right ".

END OF RANT

never saw you opening up in threads like these ... what change ?
whatever it was, keep it coming, thoroughly enjoy reading your post ..

At the risk of always being contrarian, let me answer the question that you posed so eloquently with another question: What is it that the average citizen expects from the State, and what manifestations might the persistent denial of such expectations might take?

Yes, the Army will defend the borders to keep the freedoms to ask such questions alive, but there is far more to a State in terms of a social contract between its powers and its citizenry at large. A prolonged negation of that social contract will lead to fissures for others to manipulate according to their own purposes, as we can see now.

The solution lies in repairing the foundations, not papering over the cracks in the shaky building above.

What are your thoughts on Post #15 .. No shame in admitting that we hardly agree on things but it will be good from strictly learning stand point to see what people who dislike or disagree with you think about your writings .