Watch "Why did the Mughal Empire Collapse?" on YouTube

[Cobra Arbok]

.

Is this why Mughals intermarried their sons and daughters with Rajputs (vice versa) to the extent that at the end of the Mughal dynasty, they were essentially Rajput in blood.

Muslims don’t have the disease of racism and caste-ism which you have. We have no problem with intermarrying with any race, provided they are Muslims.

This is what made the Mughal Empire so appealing.



There are a lot of fakes. Without an authentic shajarat un nisab, we cannot know anyone’s real ancestry. Rajputs are known by the places of their origin and which of the three major divisions they are a part of.

There are many fake Rajput and Kashmiri Pandits in India. It is advantageous for them to lie about their lineage to be considered superior to their countrymen. If you do some research, you will find out many of them are Gujuratis and other southern groups.

I know you are bigoted against Gujaratis and South India, but please do not spread falsehoods. First of all, the Saurashtra peninsula of Gujarat was a part of the historical region. And the fact that you think Gujaratis, a western Indo-European people, are south indians or dravidians shows your ignorance. The fact is the majority of Rajputs are still in India and are still Hindu. India even has a state based on the historical rajputana. I know you dont like that because you are bigoted against hindus, but facts dont care abou your feelings.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Lol nice try, but Marathas under bajirao sacked delhi, and under malhar rao conqured Attock and indus valley as well.

And then the Pashtuns cut through them like a hot knife through butter. And as if that wasn't bad enough, the Mysoreans also managed to defeat them a fair few times.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

A combination of multiple factors.



Yes, it is. The wars in the Deccan were not what killed them (but were part of a larger event that helped cause their demise, which is that Indians were getting a tad bit tired of hundreds of years of Muslims throwing them around like a ragdoll).



They were unable to defeat the Mysoreans or the Durranis, so much for being the 'dominant power'.



Then why are you making such a big deal over it?

the marathas defeated tipu sultan and made him pay tribute. and they als odefeated the british and the portugueese. And i fail to see hoe indians were thrownnaround like ragdolls when the mughals were never able to expand below north india except during aurangzeb, ad that too he was barely able to control tjat region. In fact for 500 years southern and eastern india were ruled by vijayanagara, which Akbar said was the most powerful empire ij the subcontinent. And the most powerful and advanced empires in south asian history the mauryans and Guptas originated in Bihar If anything it was cotermonious pakistanis that got thrown around like ragdolls becase they were not able to produce any notable indigenous empire, and were ruled by foreigners from the mauryans to the greeks to the kushans to central asian turkik invaders. India was never invaded by any power until Ghaznavi, and that too muslims only ruled the nortern parts of India for about 500 years before the region got liberated by the marathas. So i fail to see the validity of your claim.

And i dont think I am makinc a big deal over"Islamization." I was simply correcting you. But you are right, it is not a big deal. However the fact is still that the majority of rajputs are hindu.

And then the Pashtuns cut through them like a hot knife through butter. And as if that wasn't bad enough, the Mysoreans also managed to defeat them a fair few times.

the marathas still remained the dominant power in the subcontinant until the era of the british. But their defeat at panipat kostly limited them east of the indus. And as i said before the marathas defeated Tipu sultan and made him pay tribute.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

the marathas defeated tipu sultan and made him pay tribute.

No, the Mysoreans won the last (as well as a few other) battle(s). They only agreed to Maratha terms so they could focus on other things, namely the British.

If anything it was cotermonious pakistanis that got thrown around like ragdolls becase they were not able to produce any notable indigenous empire

The fact that you're repeating the same lies despite being proven wrong before really shows the lack of honesty on your end. Most major empires of the region were based around Afghanistan/Pakistan (e.g the Kushans, Indo-Scythians, Indo-Parthians, Huns, the Ghaznavids, the Ghurids, etc). Even your darling Aryans started off in the Indus. Not to mention all the Pakistani Rajputs, Pashtuns, Gujjars, Jats, Awans, Arains, Baloch, Kamboj and many more who are all related to powerful conquerors. In fact, many of India's most cherished Hindu dynasties all have descendants among Pakistani Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars (e.g the Chauhans, Pratiharas, Solankis, Tomars, and many more).

and were ruled by foreigners

Who all assimilated into the region and make up the beautiful mosaic of peoples that is Pakistan. We've got people descended from Ghenghis Khan, Alexander of Macedon, Porus, Prithviraj Chauhan, Muhammad Ghauri, Kanishka, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and numerous others all living in one nation and working together.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

No, the Mysoreans won the last (as well as a few other) battle(s). They only agreed to Maratha terms so they could focus on other things, namely the British.



The fact that you're repeating the same lies despite being proven wrong before really shows the lack of honesty on your end. Most major empires of the region were based around Afghanistan/Pakistan (e.g the Kushans, Indo-Scythians, Indo-Parthians, Huns, the Ghaznavids, the Ghurids, etc). Even your darling Aryans started off in the Indus. Not to mention all the Pakistani Rajputs, Pashtuns, Gujjars, Jats, Awans, Arains, Baloch, Kamboj and many more who are all related to powerful conquerors. In fact, many of India's most cherished Hindu dynasties all have descendants among Pakistani Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars (e.g the Chauhans, Pratiharas, Solankis, Tomars, and many more).


Who all assimilated into the region and make up the beautiful mosaic of peoples that is Pakistan. We've got people descended from Ghenghis Khan, Alexander of Macedon, Porus, Prithviraj Chauhan, Muhammad Ghauri, Kanishka, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and numerous others all living in one nation and working together.

the kushans were frm Xinjiang china, the indo scthians from greece, and the huns from central asia. Of course they got assimilatr into pakistani society after so many years just like the mughals assimilated into indian society. But none of those groups ruled large parts of india. in fact the huns were defeated by the gptas and the scythians by the mauryans. And my post was simply a response to your claim aout indians being kicked around like ragdolls when the same can apply to pakistan. If anything, we were able to largely preserve our 10000 year old culture civilization, and religion.

BTW, the aryans did not invade, but simply migrated.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Only due to tribal warfare into maratha clans.

After that battle they Conqured most of Nirth India and ruled it until the brits came.

Peshwa brahmins at that time were just figurehead like Chatrapati kings. Blame goes to Smaller clans for formng Confederacy over empire.

the maratjas were still the dominant power on the subcontonent until 1857, which is impressive considering all the wars they had to fight.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Lol thays why they created a caste system to stop mixing their blood with desi converts.

And we kniw who real rajputs amd Pandits are. Unlike punjabi desi converts we dont share this great honor of claiming others as our Fathers.

As if pretending to be Arab, Persian, Turk, Mughal,Afghan was not enough these converts from low castes(a historical fact) started to fatisize Rajputs and brahmins as well.


Father of their Punjabi Nation is a Gujarati lol.

His village is located right next to mine.

Lol thays why they created a caste system to stop mixing their blood with desi converts.

And we kniw who real rajputs amd Pandits are. Unlike punjabi desi converts we dont share this great honor of claiming others as our Fathers.

As if pretending to be Arab, Persian, Turk, Mughal,Afghan was not enough these converts from low castes(a historical fact) started to fatisize Rajputs and brahmins as well.


Father of their Punjabi Nation is a Gujarati lol.

His village is located right next to mine.

Gandhi was from porbandar district and Jinnah's ancestral district is in rajkot(where my maternal grandmother is from). Both those districts border each other.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Jinnah's village moti paneri is right next to mine. But my family left our village 3 gen ago and settled in East Africa(US), uk, mumbai and Rajkot(me).

wow your family is almost like my mother's family. My great grandfather got a high ranking position in the raj and moved to nairobi keny where he worked as a station master for the kenyan railways. My maternal grandfather's family is from limbi in surendranagar district in central gujarat, but his family had lived in sindh for several generations.

Btw, i did some more research into Gandhi, and i found out his ancestral village is in junagadh.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Lol trigged punjabi is angry that his so called baap is not his real baap.

Dude just ignore him. He is a troll, no need to derail a currently decent thread.

On a side note, Indus Pakistan is a decent guy. He can be a little unnecessarily harsh, but he is not a troll.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

the kushans were frm Xinjiang china, the indo scthians
from greece, and the huns from central asia.

Originally? Yes, but they assimilated into the society of what is now Pakistan and based their empires around it. Not only that, but most of them also belonged to the Eastern Iranic race, just like the Pashtuns. And their DNA is present among many people in what is now Pakistan:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/

He is a troll

Rich coming from you.

But none of those groups ruled large parts of india

They still launched many attacks into it's heart.

in fact the huns were defeated by the gptas

The Huns are considered one of the primary catalysts for the downfall of the Guptas.

nd the scythians by the mauryans

Wrong.

when the same can apply to pakistan

Again, wrong. The conquerors assimilated into our society, whereas for you guys this isn't really the case.

Lol thays why they created a caste system to stop mixing their blood with desi converts.

They did no such thing. A few wackos tried to implement it, but they were largely ignored.

these converts from low castes

https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

This is the Harappa admixture sheet. You will find that Muslims from Pakistan and north-west India have higher amounts of SW Asian (i.e Arab) ancestry than their non-Muslim counterparts from the same ethnic group. The only exceptions are a few of the Sikh populations, which would be expected since many Muslims did convert to Sikhism (since Islam was already pretty firmly established in the Punjab at that time).

I'll give you some examples:

Kashmiri Paharis (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Kashmiri Pandits (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Punjabi Arains (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Muslim Jatts: 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Brahmins: 0% SW Asian admixture

Gujarati Muslims: 4% SW Asian admixture
Gujarati Patels (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Here is a Punjabi Muslim Gujjar's ancestry results, he obtained 3% SW Asian admixture:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12411-Pakistani-Gujjar-Results-Harappa

Here are some studies on Muslim Gujjars from north-western India, they are shown to be genetically and physically distinct from their non-Muslim counterparts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812661

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524001

Even the ones whose families are Hindu converts, they are descended from some of the most powerful Indian dynasties. If you love them so much, then why don't you do what they did and follow Islam? You seem to only follow them when it suits you.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Originally? Yes, but they assimilated into the society of what is now Pakistan and based their empires around it. Not only that, but most of them also belonged to the Eastern Iranic race, just like the Pashtuns. And their DNA is present among many people in what is now Pakistan:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/



Rich coming from you.



They still launched many attacks into it's heart.



The Huns are considered one of the primary catalysts for the downfall of the Guptas.



Wrong.



Again, wrong. The conquerors assimilated into our society, whereas for you guys this isn't really the case.

View attachment 526754



They did no such thing. A few wackos tried to implement it, but they were largely ignored.



https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

This is the Harappa admixture sheet. You will find that Muslims from Pakistan and north-west India have higher amounts of SW Asian (i.e Arab) ancestry than their non-Muslim counterparts from the same ethnic group. The only exceptions are a few of the Sikh populations, which would be expected since many Muslims did convert to Sikhism (since Islam was already pretty firmly established in the Punjab at that time).

I'll give you some examples:

Kashmiri Paharis (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Kashmiri Pandits (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Punjabi Arains (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Muslim Jatts: 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Brahmins: 0% SW Asian admixture

Gujarati Muslims: 4% SW Asian admixture
Gujarati Patels (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Here is a Punjabi Muslim Gujjar's ancestry results, he obtained 3% SW Asian admixture:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12411-Pakistani-Gujjar-Results-Harappa

Here are some studies on Muslim Gujjars from north-western India, they are shown to be genetically and physically distinct from their non-Muslim counterparts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812661

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524001

Even the ones whose families are Hindu converts, they are descended from some of the most powerful Indian dynasties. If you love them so much, then why don't you do what they did and follow Islam? You seem to only follow them when it suits you.

I really don't care if they assimilated into you guys. That is perfectly fine. But it does not change the fact that they ruled you guys for centuries before the Mughals. The fact that they assimilated into you more than us proves my point that they ruled you more than us. Again, I am not using that fact to look down upon you, I am just pointing it out. And when did any of those groups rule significant parts of India? The Huns were defeated by the Guptas and made tributary states, and the Scythians were defeated by the Mauryans. The only area ruled by those groups was North West India, which may explain those genetics.

I really don't know what yo are trying to prove since I never said anything provocative. Rather it was you who made that Rag doll comment, I was just correcting you.

Also, the Mauryan Empire defeated the Greek Selucid Empire under Sulucous Nicator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid–Mauryan_war

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

Lol nice try, but Marathas under bajirao sacked delhi, and under malhar rao conqured Attock and indus valley as well.

First time after fall of Last hindu empire called Brahminshahi 1400 years ago another hindu empire ruled whole valley.

Bahirao and Malhar rao were Bhat brahmins, just like me.

U actually can't say that they ruled indus valley or that their empire stretched till peshawar since within few months marathas were kicked out of peshawar and attock so they didn't actually rule peshawar or attock other than this all these foolish acts of marathas really frustrated Ahmad Shah baba along with the letter of one of marathan ruler stating that he has taken west side of indus and is gonna capture kashmir now so ahmad shah baba gathered an army of local paskhtuns(e.g afridi,yousafzai,bangash,shinwaris and others) and made alliance with nawab of oudh(who was also ethnic pakhtun) and took down marathas (in the battle that shows the real strenght of paskhtun) at the foreign ground, reinstated the mughal emperor and moved back. Result was that marathas could then never move back till even punjab. And yeah Ahamd shah baba was a pakhtun just like me [emoji4]

Sent from my SM-G900F using Defence.pk mobile app

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

And yeah Ahamd shah baba was a pakhtun just like me

Yes he is a hero of our people. May Allah swt bless him.

Even the ones whose families are Hindu converts, they are descended from some of the most powerful Indian dynasties. If you love them so much, then why don't you do what they did and follow Islam? You seem to only follow them when it suits you.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

U actually can't say that they ruled indus valley or that their empire stretched till peshawar since within few months marathas were kicked out of peshawar and attock so they didn't actually rule peshawar or attock other than this all these foolish acts of marathas really frustrated Ahmad Shah baba along with the letter of one of marathan ruler stating that he has taken west side of indus and is gonna capture kashmir now so ahmad shah baba gathered an army of local paskhtuns(e.g afridi,yousafzai,bangash,shinwaris and others) and made alliance with nawab of oudh(who was also ethnic pakhtun) and took down marathas (in the battle that shows the real strenght of paskhtun) at the foreign ground, reinstated the mughal emperor and moved back. Result was that marathas could then never move back till even punjab. And yeah Ahamd shah baba was a pakhtun just like me [emoji4]

Sent from my SM-G900F using Defence.pk mobile app

After Panipat the Durranis were not able to cross East of the Indus. But similarly to the Marathas were mostly limited east of the Indus. They were still dominant in modern India until the British arrived though.

And yes the Marathas made many mistakes which is why they lost much of their territory in modern Pakistan. They were far from perfect.

Originally? Yes, but they assimilated into the society of what is now Pakistan and based their empires around it. Not only that, but most of them also belonged to the Eastern Iranic race, just like the Pashtuns. And their DNA is present among many people in what is now Pakistan:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/



Rich coming from you.



They still launched many attacks into it's heart.



The Huns are considered one of the primary catalysts for the downfall of the Guptas.



Wrong.



Again, wrong. The conquerors assimilated into our society, whereas for you guys this isn't really the case.

View attachment 526754



They did no such thing. A few wackos tried to implement it, but they were largely ignored.



https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

This is the Harappa admixture sheet. You will find that Muslims from Pakistan and north-west India have higher amounts of SW Asian (i.e Arab) ancestry than their non-Muslim counterparts from the same ethnic group. The only exceptions are a few of the Sikh populations, which would be expected since many Muslims did convert to Sikhism (since Islam was already pretty firmly established in the Punjab at that time).

I'll give you some examples:

Kashmiri Paharis (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Kashmiri Pandits (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Punjabi Arains (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Muslim Jatts: 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Brahmins: 0% SW Asian admixture

Gujarati Muslims: 4% SW Asian admixture
Gujarati Patels (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Here is a Punjabi Muslim Gujjar's ancestry results, he obtained 3% SW Asian admixture:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12411-Pakistani-Gujjar-Results-Harappa

Here are some studies on Muslim Gujjars from north-western India, they are shown to be genetically and physically distinct from their non-Muslim counterparts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812661

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524001

Even the ones whose families are Hindu converts, they are descended from some of the most powerful Indian dynasties. If you love them so much, then why don't you do what they did and follow Islam? You seem to only follow them when it suits you.

The most powerful Indian dynasties were the Mauryans and Guptas, and they were started by Biharis. They were able to unite almost the entire subcontinent for several centuries something the Mughals failed to do. Only the British were able to exceed them.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Mauryans and Guptas

Can't speak about the Guptas, but I know there are Jats descended from the Mauryans (Google the Mor clan).

You're also forgetting about the Gurjara Pratiharas, the Chauhans, and the numerous other dynasties across India (Solankis, Chavdas, Tomars, etc). Plenty of Pakistanis (and Muslims from the sub-continent as a whole) are descended from or related to them.

I really don't care if they assimilated into you guys. That is perfectly fine. But it does not change the fact that they ruled you guys for centuries before the Mughals.

They can't have ruled over us if they are us.

and the Scythians were defeated by the Mauryans.

I already told you, that's incorrect.

The only area ruled by those groups was North West India, which may explain those genetics.

No, because the gene flow sharply decreases among north-west Indians in comparison to Pakistanis (other than high caste Hindus + Punjabis + Kashmiris) even though they were also ruled by the same dynasties.