Was Jinnah secular or not?

[fisher1]

Who is stopping you from learning Islam? The Mullah is a Mullah because he chose to learn Islam full time, the reason you and i are not Mullahs because we chose to learn what university taught us and gave little time to Islam.

It's disgusting when people bash Mullahs for their own lack of interest in Islam.

When it comes to other matters, we are vicious and take it by force despite even being told not to. When it comes to Islam, the blame game starts. Oh that damn Mullah didn't tell me to read Holy Quran. Oh Khabees Mullah farted and now i am never reading about Islam.

What i will say Mullahs need to do is start getting political and get this country back from western puppets who want to demonise Ulema. People who are unfit for Imamat of one person because they don't have beard and no knowledge of Holy Quran have become leaders of 22 crore Muslims.

Religion has been given to Mullahs because they are the only ones who owned it. What? Imran Khan is going to do Imamat in our mosques? Or Bajwa is going to tell us how to recite Holy Quran? Or Murad Saeed will perform Nikkah? No, it's going to be a Mullah who knows all this, who spends his time in mosque all day.

What a stupid post, the Western world got rid of religion by ridiculing their clergy. This tactic is being employed successfully in Pakistan by western puppets. Today, Mullah can't even think about politics. Stay in mosque or we will cut off your tongue.

Mr. Jinnahs Pakistan Died with him what he truly wanted we will never know hence Fighting on it is irrelevant. Pakistan will be what Pakistanis want. Those who are trying to create mischief on this issue are well known.

If you want to know what Pakistanis want do a Nationwide referendum you will see whats written on the wall clearly yet many refuse to believe it.

When have we ever truly tried to implement Principals of Sharia in Country of ours. As a Muslim I know and wholehearted believe Islam is compatible with life in any Day and Age. But today's Muslims are incompatible with Islam some of them are the most vile disgusting creatures to ever live they distort and misuse our Lords word for their gains.

One of the Reasons i admire People who Revert to Islam is that they study and Learn about it First. Our 3rd rate Religious Leadership has never asked People to Learn Arabic on one hand and on the other hand and they have always Downplayed the Importance of Urdu Translations. Go to Mosques close to You you will see Books of Hadeeth and Translations on the shelves but the Imams there will never tell you to Reads them. On Jummas Hutbas we are told about stories about Great Early Muslim Personalities but never ever have i heard them talk about Islam what it says about Marriage what it says about Greed. The Reason for this as i see it is Majority of Islam is incompatible with our Cultural Dogmas and Beliefs.

We are today in this State because we have given Religion to the Mullah for us its his Job to study not ours. As long as this state of affair continues forget anything will change.

To those that say there are Too many Versions of Sharia no there arnt different sects used Different Teachings of Contemporary Muslim Scholars of last 200 to 300 Years thats why they fight all the time because they give too much importance to their Progenitor scholars than what Islam says.

Any Sharia as far as Ahle-Sunnat is concerned can be Derived from Holy Quran, Bukharia Sharif and Muslim Sharief Hadeeth books as these are Principle books agreed upon by all those sects (Brelvis, Deobandis, Ahle-Hadeeths) who Identify with Ahle-Sunnat. A Commission can Easily Derive an Islamic Basic Law from these Books and no one in their right mind will Question it. On matters which are not mentioned there use common law followed by Rest of the world. Most of Shia and Sunni basic law will be same as Fundamentals of Islam are same on matters where there will be Difference's of Opinion Eg. Zakat a Dual Mechanism could be made.

Coming to Minorities Islam allows Parallel Judicial System for them they wont be judged by Muslims but their own Judges and system. Minorities in Muslim lands ruled by Islam will have same Protections and Rights as the rest of Population as they would be tax payers of the same state as the Rest of Population. There is no where Islam says to kill Minorities Burn their Places of Worship, Force them to convert. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) even allowed Christians to Pray inside Prophets Mosque. It is the Incompetence of Law and order in Muslim Majority states that Presents this Attitude. Dont present your Ignorance on these matters as Islam.

P.S.
Pakistan has never been Ruled by a Religious leader all our Leaders were either Military Dictators Each with his Own Agenda and Centrists or Secular men/women. So Dont Bring this Argument that Islam Ruined us its the other way we around we ruined Islam.

 

[Rusty]

Honestly, that’s a risible point of view. Sometimes, it’s inevitable because of some certain situations in life and that make people leave their country. But that doesn’t necessarily mean, they gotta change their opinions on certain perspectives too. Why? Merely because they have moved to another country?

If you dig deeper into what I said, you will realize that him moving to the secular west is not the issue.
It's that the secular west has created a situation that attracted him to it.

No "theocracy" has created a situation that made him want to go there.
Now if you look at the big numbers, millions of Muslim move to the west.
Hard core Muslims.
Why?
Why leave blessed Sharia for kafir secularism?
Numbers don't lie.
There is a draw to the state saying "pray how ever you want, it's non of our business"

 

[padamchen]

If you dig deeper into what I said, you will realize that him moving to the secular west is not the issue.
It's that the secular west has created a situation that attracted him to it.

No "theocracy" has created a situation that made him want to go there.
Now if you look at the big numbers, millions of Muslim move to the west.
Hard core Muslims.
Why?
Why leave blessed Sharia for kafir secularism?
Numbers don't lie.
There is a draw to the state saying "pray how ever you want, it's non of our business"

But if Muslims like secularism so much, what's stopping them from the transformation of their own nations?

 

[Rusty]

But if Muslims like secularism so much, what's stopping them from the transformation of their own nations?

There are 1.5 billion Muslim on Earth, who said 1.5 billion people liked secularism?

 

[padamchen]

There are 1.5 billion Muslim on Earth, who said 1.5 billion people liked secularism?

So safe to say that the vast majority of Muslims who live in the 55 odd Muslim nations do not like secularism.

Do you then believe that they should be allowed to enjoy secularism in non Muslim nations?

 

[Rusty]

So safe to say that the vast majority of Muslims who live in the 55 odd Muslim nations do not like secularism.

Do you then believe that they should be allowed to enjoy secularism in non Muslim nations?

on what basis is it safe to say that?
Have you conducted a poll?
looked at charts?
What are you even saying?

I know the game you are trying to play, but you first need to establish your primes.
Provide me the evidence for your claim.

 

[padamchen]

on what basis is it safe to say that?
Have you conducted a poll?
looked at charts?
What are you even saying?

I know the game you are trying to play, but you first need to establish your primes.
Provide me the evidence for your claim.

Ok. Let's play.

Let's take you.

You're of Pakistan origin.

An Islamic Republic.

Why should you be allowed secular privileges in Canada?

Let's forget all other Muslim nations.

Let's only talk about Pakistani expats here.

 

[Rusty]

Ok. Let's play.

Let's take you.

You're of Pakistan origin.

An Islamic Republic.

Why should you be allowed secular privileges in Canada?

Let's forget all other Muslim nations.

Let's only talk about Pakistani expats here.

What?
Did you even read what I wrote?
It's like you heard the middle of the conversation and jumped into it.

Your end goal is to show how India should become a Hindutva hell hole while I am saying that governments should not be oppressing minorities.

And what the heck are "Secular privileges"
This is the thought process of a person who clearly does not think of Humanity as equal. You think there are different tears of people so 2nd class citizens don't get
"secular privileges"
Of course in your mind, those 2nd class citizens are Muslims.

Your hatred for Muslims is showing so hard here.

 

[American Pakistani]

Really can common sense explain what happened in babri masjid or kashmir ...?

This is where we act little foolish. We cannot put their internal matter with an external matter. This has made them bold enough to start calling an occupied region as their integral.

Babri masjid is their internal matter while IOK is not. I would put Babri masjid issue and genocide of Sikhs Khalistanis together.

 

[padamchen]

What?
Did you even read what I wrote?
It's like you heard the middle of the conversation and jumped into it.

Your end goal is to show how India should become a Hindutva hell hole while I am saying that governments should not be oppressing minorities.

And what the heck are "Secular privileges"
This is the thought process of a person who clearly does not think of Humanity as equal. You think there are different tears of people so 2nd class citizens don't get
"secular privileges"
Of course in your mind, those 2nd class citizens are Muslims.

Your hatred for Muslims is showing so hard here.

I read everything you wrote.

I agree with most of it.

But I find the CONCEPT patently skewed and unfair.

Why should citizens of non secular nations be allowed secular equal rights in secular nations.

Either they should not be allowed permanent residence.

Or they should be subjected to quid pro quo laws and status if they are allowed in.

Do you agree?

 

[Rusty]

I read everything you wrote.

I agree with most of it.

But I find the CONCEPT patently skewed and unfair.

Why should citizens of non secular nations be allowed secular equal rights in secular nations.

Either they should not be allowed permanent residence.

Or they should be subjected to quid pro quo laws and status if they are allowed in.

Do you agree?

Again
That is the thought process of a hateful person.

Aren't you like an older guy?
These are the thoughts I used to have when I was an antsy teenager, who grew up as a minority.

But we grow up, realize that justice and love are stronger forces then hate and division.

And are you sure you really want to argue this 2nd class citizenship thing?
By that logic, Hindus in Canada who eat beef should be lynched.

 

[padamchen]

Again
That is the thought process of a hateful person.

Aren't you like an older guy?
These are the thoughts I used to have when I was an antsy teenager, who grew up as a minority.

But we grow up, realize that justice and love are stronger forces then hate and division.

And are you sure you really want to argue this 2nd class citizenship thing?
By that logic, Hindus in Canada who eat beef should be lynched.

We are having a civil debate here. I'm putting forward my point of view. Im using you as an anecdotal example. Im not directly attacking you as you seem to be me.

Pakistan has something called Hudood Ordinances.

Pakistan recently also had some passport form or something where you had to declare if you were Muslim or not.

In Pakistan if you are not Muslim a number of privileges and high offices are closed to you.

In Pakistan there is a Blasphemy Law that is abused to target minorities ... non Muslim minorities.

Do you believe as a person of Pakistani origin in Canda the same laws should now inversely be applied on you?

If no, why not?

 

[Rusty]

We are having a civil debate here. I'm putting forward my point of view. Im using you as an anecdotal example. Im not directly attacking you as you seem to be me.

Pakistan has something called Hudood Ordinances.

Pakistan recently also had some passport form or something where you had to declare if you were Muslim or not.

In Pakistan if you are not Muslim a number of privileges and high offices are closed to you.

Do you believe as a person of Pakistani origin in Canda tge same laws should now inversely be applied on you?

If no, why not?

I really am not attacking you.
There are two parts here

Part 1:
My personal view (which is based on love and humanity) that countries should be secular as religious governments cause problems (Pakistan in the past, but India right now)
I also gave evidence that even hardcore religious people move to the secular west, since you know... government being secular means people can pray and worship any way they want.

Part 2:
You want to take this argument and uniquely apply it to Muslims as way to argue Muslims should uniquely be discriminated against and treated like 2nd class humans as punishment for their perceived (in your mind) shortcomings .

That is why I say your argument is based on hate and mine is based on humanity.

I will be the first one here defending Hindu/Christian/Sikh/Paris rights in Pakistan as they are fellow humans and Pakistanis.

You don't seem to have that view of Muslims, especially Muslims in India.

 

[padamchen]

I really am not attacking you.
There are two parts here

Part 1:
My personal view (which is based on love and humanity) that countries should be secular as religious governments cause problems (Pakistan in the past, but India right now)
I also gave evidence that even hardcore religious people move to the secular west, since you know... government being secular means people can pray and worship any way they want.

Part 2:
You want to take this argument and uniquely apply it to Muslims as way to argue Muslims should uniquely be discriminated against and treated like 2nd class humans as punishment for their perceived (in your mind) shortcomings .

That is why I say your argument is based on hate and mine is based on humanity.

I will be the first one here defending Hindu/Christian/Sikh/Paris rights in Pakistan as they are fellow humans and Pakistanis.

You don't seem to have that view of Muslims, especially Muslims in India.

Again your post is about me and not about the specifics I addressed to you.

 

[Rusty]

Again your post is about me and not about the specifics I addressed to you.

It's because I refuse to engage in your paradigm.

The trail of taught that you want to lead me through only ends up one place and that is your wish to treat Muslims as lesser then.

I will state my position again so there is no confusion.
All humans are equal and the government should treat them equally regardless of religion, race, etc etc.