Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[war&peace]

Eventually, it will end up with Chinese radar only. Chinese will not allow integration of other system. Non do I see vixen and AIM-120 combo on JF-17.

The dream of vixen and SD-10 is even impossible.

Didn't the RC400 saga teaches you all something?

What is your source of such claims?

 

[SQ8]

How do you define 50% component. It is too subjective but rather you claimed so confident of Chinese release source code for radar and SD-10. Sure a big deal on foreign radar on JF-17 will be coming soon. 3 years is not a short time. If after 3years, still no news of anything. Interest of foreign radar in JF-17 is sure lost, just like the R 400 saga.

I think I make a fair bet.

But what does knowing the source code, and purchasing a system have to do with each other? The source code for the SD-10 means it can be integrated with a better radar IF it is selected. That is irrelevant to whether a new radar is selected or not but whether the capability exists.

The RC-400 radar system is the other way around, the French were NOT ready to integrate the SD-10 which in itself had not been evaluated fully by the PAF. The RC-400 package included the Mica which was a tested and known missile was preferred due to a complete package.

How can you equate a source code release to a seller's intent to allow its integration with their systems? Sounds like a very immature approach that akin to a teenager. I gave you a better one, in 3 years; the Chinese will have little say in what happens on the JF-17 and even less in what goes into it or not.

let me give you a hint, the only crash the JF-17 has had came with an interesting aspect is because there was a foreign component being tested in which the pilot exceeded the design limits.. this was done without telling Chengdu a single thing.

What is your source of such claims?

Chinese forums, that is pretty much the only source they have. The problem with forum referencing is that anyone can type BS there by being "ELITE" or "SENIOR" members and it is taken as gospel.

We too have lots of low quality "Elite" and "Senior" members who dont know jack technically and just playback the same ten lines like a stuck cassette; but the young ones here go "wah wah!"

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

What a Small sad west licker, don't make judgement before detail comparison

Why? should only be licking chinese balls?

Really? I only know facts, I will trust more with Chinese forum news sources who has link to Chengdu AVIC. Chinese will release any of those sources codes. If interrogation of our missile with foreign radar. If need to be carry out by Chinese and no other.

Wait until there is a vixen /SD-10 missile or vixen/AIM-120 in JF-17 exported. I will eat back my words. Until now is only a pipe dream.

Maybe you have no idea how integration is done, to make such a ridiculous claim.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

 

[royalharris]

Why? should only be licking chinese balls?



Maybe you have no idea how integration is done, to make such a ridiculous claim.

As you like!
Wish you can lick on one's ball, make rational comments based on truth&details like a grow-up.

 

[Beast]

What is your

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

Active homing missile does not mean the whole phase during the launch to attack enemy is independent from the aircraft radar. The initial launch still needs to be guided by the aircraft radar. So as the mid course correction.

It is only the final phase of the attack for the missile profile approach to the targeted aircraft that the missile is fully autonomous. BVRAAM missile integration to own radar is still essential.

Theoretically, the whole BVRAAM engagement can be completed by AWACS w/o the fighters radar but that will be too reliance on AWACS. If your AWACS is shot down or malfunction. It will be end of the game for BVR.

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

Hi dear @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
1)Yes Missile integration is very essential in ARH missiles because missile needs to be guided till it reaches A-pole or the radar of the missile goes active.

Imagine this--A missile is fired from the launching platform,But the missile has no clue where the target is! It's own active seeker has a very limited range of the order of 20-25kms and hence it needs reliable estimates of target's location from outside--either from the launching platform or AWACS.

This is accomplished by having a data link from radar of the launching platform to the missile. The job of the pilot is then to keep target firmly in the field of view of his radar.Radar automatically sends target information to missile over a secured data link and this target information is usually in the form of required azimuth and elevation angles.These required azimuth and elevation angle requirements needs to be translated into lateral acceleration requirements by the flight path controller of the missile using suitable guidance law.Because ultimately what matters to a missile is the lateral acceleration that must be commanded in order to meet angle requirements. So,from engineering perspective ,Yes,we must need the source code of the missile so that it can communicate with the radar of the launching platform.The challenge in ARH missile is to establish this data link with the radar.

2)The bigger engagement envelope of Meteor is probably because of itz propulsion than anything else.Conventional missiles like SD-10,ASTRA,AIM-120 etc use "non-air breathing solid rockets" as main mode of propulsion.Whereas Meteor uses an airbreathing ramjet.What is more important here is this ramjet is throttolable!Now what that means is,apart from lateral acceleration,missile has thrust as an added control variable that can be manipulated to achieve angle requirements.

Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
terminal as in?I hope you're not talking about the bash terminal that I use in my linux computer.Ok jokes aside,The missile receives the target information from the radar via a data link and this information is translated into lateral acceleration commands by a suitable guidance law like PN or PN with LQR running on the on-board computer of the missile.

 

[GumNaam]

I tend to agree with @royalharris and @Beast on this one.

On top of that, western manufacturers are just not reliable and prone crooked and phony sanctions while the Chinese manufacturers are more or less just as technically advanced and a reliable as suppliers and technology providers.

 

[DJ_Viper]

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

Sir, the answer to the bold part is "absolutely". A missile doesn't just go after a target. The pilot has to pick one, lock on it and feed that data into the plane (whether IR, with coordinates or Radar homing, Heat Seeking, etc, various modes used). Once the missile leaves the rail, or the wing station, then it works through its seeker which already knows the location of the target and can track it actively. In semi-active, the source radar feeds data to the missile as it goes towards the target and goes active when it gets closer to the target, meaning it has its own lock on the target at that time. I am just explaining it simply as not everyone on here probably comes from an air-force background. Thanks

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

There are a lot of experts here and they have spoken. I hoping to avoid this conversation, and licking balls seems to garner more of people's interest. Alas i hope more of these idiots are blocked daily.

I will clear people's concept on integration! specific to our bird.

in JF17, the architecture is dual redundant Mission Computer (They call it WMMC). Everything in the aircraft talks on MUX bus (1553B) to the mission computer. PAF owns this mission computer fully. The talk of (not being able to integrate) is naive and mis-informed.

A little tech talk from my groundia friends.

The MC (WMMC) talks to Stores Management System (SMS), also fully owned by PAF. What does that do? Any weapon protocols received on a procured weapon system can be integrated, whether serial, digital MUX, or discrete. To claim here that Chinese this or that, is biased and wrong.

Now lets talk about AAMs. Most AAMs today have radio telemetry, that guides the weapon to a particular target quadrant prior to going to active. This is often called LOAL. The protocols for SD-10 are known, as its done through KLJ7 today which is ALSO manufactured by Pakistan in KARF. Hence, doing this integration in another radar (wherever that may come from) is not rocket science, and nobody should underestimate Pakistan or PAF groundias.

 

[MastanKhan]

Really? I only know facts, I will trust more with Chinese forum news sources who has link to Chengdu AVIC. Chinese will release any of those sources codes. If interrogation of our missile with foreign radar. If need to be carry out by Chinese and no other.

Wait until there is a vixen /SD-10 missile or vixen/AIM-120 in JF-17 exported. I will eat back my words. Until now is only a pipe dream.

Hi,

Sir---I believe that you are not upto date on the issue at hand. If we need the SD10 and want to integrate it with a foreign radar----trust me on this---we will---.

The decision will be made by the Paf and not by the chinese.

 

[Tank131]

Just to give an area where this has already happened, MAA-1A and MAR-1 from brazil. PAF has a history of flying chinese aircraft and missiles with Italian radars btw (all your F-7P and F-7PG fly with Italian radars and Chinese weapons). Granted these are far more rudimentary systems but the fact that if the PAF selects an Italian radar (would prefer Raven-ES05 over Vixen 1000E), then it would become the largest operator of Italian radars in the world. Given that they will likely be upgrading blk 1 and 2 to these standards you are looking at 150 units of the aesa, plus you have all your F-7s and the 37 Rose I mirages flying with grifo m3.

The bigger issue over integration of systems is the prevalence of kickbacks in Pakistan military deals and what the actual specs of the systems on offer are. If the KLJ-7A is in fact a Chinese ELM-2052, then it likely out specs the Vixen 1000E. It was after all designed with IAF F-15s in mind as potential operators. The issue will be if the chinese can deliver an entire EW amd sensor package for JF-17 that can complete with Selex.

 

[The Eagle]

We have been hearing about Gulf interest for JF-17 and if this integration turned into reality, which seems a possibility as different dealings and MOUs are placed with Italians by Pakistan in past, IMO, it is going to make it but after all the studies.

The deal will become a possibility as soon as interest changed into Gulf money for the platform. Didn't we hear about EJ-200 possibility as well into JF-17? Interesting diplomacy.

Seems like an "Arabian Knight" (JF-17 for Gulf Countries) and PAF Block-III is into making.

@Khafee

 

[MIR RAZA HUSSAIN]

just one question klj-7 or Vixen 1000-E which one is good against 5th generation jets and currently which is best for dealing with rafael

 

[volatile]

What a Small sad west licker, don't make judgement before detail comparison

Every body has his opinion infact all great sales occur on market demand and pricing . African nations like Nigeria and others if can afford expensive systems so no issue but in reality they dont . For being West Licker comment i will leave this to the intellect level of yours even consider to answer this makes me to your intellect level ,Cheers