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Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with submarines

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HONG KONG (Reuters) - Vietnam will soon have a credible naval deterrent to China in the South China Sea in the form of Kilo-class submarines from Russia, which experts say could make Beijing think twice before pushing its much smaller neighbor around in disputed waters.
A master of guerrilla warfare, Vietnam has taken possession of two of the state-of-the-art submarines and will get a third in November under a $2.6 billion deal agreed with Moscow in 2009. A final three are scheduled to be delivered within two years.
While communist parties rule both Vietnam and China and annual trade has risen to $50 billion, Hanoi has long been wary of China, especially over Beijing's claims to most of the potentially energy-rich South China Sea. Beijing's placement of an oil rig in waters claimed by Vietnam earlier this year infuriated Hanoi but the coastguard vessels it dispatched to the platform were always chased off by larger Chinese boats.
The Vietnamese are likely to run so-called area denial operations off its coast and around its military
bases in the Spratly island chain of the South China Sea once the submarines are fully operational, experts said. That would complicate Chinese calculations over any military move against Vietnamese holdings in the Spratlys or in the event of an armed clash over disputed oil fields, even though China has a much larger navy, including a fleet of 70 submarines, they added.
"Sea denial means creating a psychological deterrent by making sure a stronger naval rival never really knows where your subs might be," said Collin Koh of Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.
"It is classic asymmetric warfare utilized by the weak against the strong and something I think the Vietnamese understand very well. The question is whether they can perfect it in the underwater dimension."

TRAINING RUNS
Vietnam is not wasting time getting to grips with its biggest ever arms purchase, the centerpiece of a naval expansion program that state media has kept largely under wraps.
From the sheltered harbor of Cam Ranh Bay - home to a massive U.S. military base during the Vietnam War - the first two submarines have recently been sighted plying the Vietnamese coast on training runs, according to regional diplomats.
A Vietnamese crew is training aboard its third Kilo in waters off St Petersburg ahead of its delivery to Cam Ranh Bay in November, Russia's Interfax news agency reported last month.
And a fourth vessel is undergoing sea trials off the Russian city's Admiralty Shipyard while the last two are being built.
While regional military attaches and experts are trying to gauge how quickly Vietnamese crews are mastering the advanced submarines, some believe it won't be too long before Hanoi starts sending them further offshore into the South China Sea.
"The Vietnamese have changed the whole scenario – they already have two submarines, they have the crews and they appear to have the weapons and their capabilities and experience will be growing from this point," said Siemon Wezeman, an arms transfer researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).
"From the point of view of Chinese assumptions, the Vietnamese deterrent is already at a point where it must be very real."
As well as possessing shorter-range torpedoes, modern Kilos while submerged can launch sea-skimming anti-ship missiles that can travel 300 km (188 miles).
Wezeman said SIPRI estimated that Vietnam had received at least 10 of the 50 Klub anti-ship missiles this year as part of the deal with Moscow, but there was no sign of any purchases of the Klub land-attack variant.
Zhang Baohui, a Chinese security specialist at Hong Kong's Lingnan University, said he believed Beijing's military planners were concerned about the submarines.
"On a theoretical level, the Vietnamese are at the point where they could put them to combat use," he said.
Neither China's Defense Ministry nor its Foreign Ministry responded to a request for comment.
"DEFENSIVE" WEAPONS
Senior Vietnamese military officials told Reuters they were satisfied with progress, saying training at sea and integration of the submarines into its developing naval force was going smoothly.
They stopped short of confirming whether the first two were fully operational but stressed they would be used "defensively".
"They are not our sole weapon, but part of a number of weapons we are developing to better protect our sovereignty. In that regard, the submarines will be defensive," said one military official in Hanoi who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.
That echoes public comments from Deputy Defence Minister Nguyen Chi Vinh who has repeatedly stated, without mentioning China directly, that Vietnam would not start a conflict in the South China Sea but if one began "we would not just stand back and watch".
Vietnam – a traditional army power – has significantly expanded its navy in recent years, acquiring modern frigates and corvettes, mostly from Russia, that are equipped with anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons.
Hanoi has also embarked on a building program of ships based on Russian designs.
Vietnam and China have a bloody history, fighting a brief border war in 1979. They clashed at sea in 1988 when China occupied its first holdings in the Spratlys. China also took full control of another South China Sea island chain, the Paracels, after a naval showdown with the then South Vietnam in 1974.
Former Western submariners watching developments said they were impressed with the apparent progress despite the enormity of the challenge for Vietnam in developing a submarine capability from scratch.
By comparison, the Philippines, the other country most at loggerheads with Beijing in the South China Sea, has no submarines or modern naval surface ships or significant naval aircraft.
Even before Vietnam took delivery of its first Kilo in January, Vietnamese submariners had been receiving training in Russia, Hanoi's Cold War-era patron.
India's navy is also training Vietnamese crews at its INS Satavahana submarine center in Andhra Pradesh state, an Indian naval official told Reuters. India has operated Kilos since the mid-1980s.
"It is not just about learning basic operational considerations, it is about the doctrine and tactics of how best to exploit these vessels – and making sure you've got a long-term program to build all this up," one Western submariner said.
MORE ADVANCED THAN CHINA'S KILOS
The diesel-electric Kilo is considered one of the quietest submarines and has been constantly refined since the 1980s.
Vasily Kashin, a Moscow-based strategic analyst, said he believed Vietnam's Kilos were more technologically advanced than the 12 such vessels operated by China's navy, which obtained its last one a decade ago.
Internal sound absorption had been improved, along with weapon control and loading systems, he said.
Open source satellite images have shown Kilos alongside new Russian-built submarine wharves at Cam Ranh Bay, as well as a new dry dock for repairs. A medical facility for submariners has also been completed nearby, according to Russian media reports.
Russian personnel are also stationed at a new Russian-built training center in Cam Ranh, which includes simulators of control, navigation and weapons systems.
U.S. forces used the bay's sheltered features to build a vast airport and logistics base at the height of the Vietnam War in the 1960s, when Cam Ranh was part of the then South Vietnam.
By late 1978 it was in Soviet hands, as a victorious Hanoi signed over base rights to Moscow. In disrepair through much of the 1990s, the Russians could not negotiate an extension and departed in 2002.
Across the harbor from the sensitive submarine facilities, the Vietnamese are expanding ship repair yards they hope will attract a range of foreign navies at commercial rates.
The U.S. navy has sent several logistics ships for servicing but a more formal arrangement has yet to be agreed.
Former Western submariners say Cam Ranh's location is perfect for Vietnam's Kilos.
Not only is it the closest large port to the Spratlys to the south, it is also within range of the Paracels.
And while much of the South China Sea is shallow and presents difficult operating conditions for submarines, Cam Ranh is close to some of the deeper water off the edge of Vietnam's continental shelf.
"No-one should underestimate the Vietnamese – they have a clear threat and that gives them an extra incentive," said Wezeman of SIPRI.
 
They stopped short of confirming whether the first two were fully operational but stressed they would be used "defensively".
"They are not our sole weapon, but part of a number of weapons we are developing to better protect our sovereignty. In that regard, the submarines will be defensive," said one military official in Hanoi who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Source: Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with submarines
Those Kilos for VN version also have ground-attack missile, so they can be used to attack another countries,too :pop:
 
We will continue to do what we have to do and we dare anyone to shoot at us.
 
In an all out confrontation, it is unlikely the Vietnamese surface fleet will survive the first round of offence, so it's logical and a strategic move to ramp up the sub surface fleet.
 
Those Kilos for VN version also have ground-attack missile, so they can be used to attack another countries,too :pop:

Any link to your assertion?
In an all out confrontation, it is unlikely the Vietnamese surface fleet will survive the first round of offence, so it's logical and a strategic move to ramp up the sub surface fleet.

In any real war involving sophisticated submarines, the surface fleet will easily become useless. they are only good against extremely inferior countries.
 
In an all out confrontation, it is unlikely the Vietnamese surface fleet will survive the first round of offence, so it's logical and a strategic move to ramp up the sub surface fleet.
Right, in VN war, we r no match to USN & USAF, as our great general Vo Nguyen Giap said :"US army can crush VN army within 2 hours if we fight face-to- face with them ", so we just focus in using torpedo & SAM missile .

Same tactic will be used to counter PLAN & PLAAF, no need to waste life and ship in an all out confrontation with China. Missile launched from shore-Kilos- Molniya missile corvette to sink China warship is a better choice .

Any link to your assertion?


.
Yep, seem like Russia export this version for VN only coz its a deadly attack machine, can be used to invade our neighbours,too
Vietnam warns on sea disputes with attack weapons armed for Kilo Subs

(Soha News) The original design of the Kilo 636 submarines without arming missiles to destroy targets on land (sea-to-surface/ sea-to-ground missile). But Vietnam's Russian- built Kilo 636MV submarines are equipped with 3M-14E missiles for ground attack.


The requirement of Vietnam
Vndata: Vietnam warns on sea disputes with attack weapons armed for Kilo Subs

We will continue to do what we have to do and we dare anyone to shoot at us.
Becareful, the "mysterious forces" may come back and kill your poor soldiers mercilessly again like the incident in Gaven reef in 1990 when 11 Chinese troops were killed mercilessly, and China still dare not open an investigation untill now .:coffee:
Army since January 1988, has troops stationed seven Spratly reefs. The seven reefs are mostly suitable flooded reef, reef exposed at low tide, low tide vast expanse of water. Dizhan large reefs around everywhere, so the army only a few small reefs on the distribution and strength of comparative stagnation was at a disadvantage. Early garrison, because the defense is not perfect facilities, personnel stationed in South Reef smoked an accident occurs.

November 7, 1990, I found the Southern Command Nansha reefs lost radio contact.After the situation was reported to the South China Sea Fleet deployed immediately went to see the ship. Under the notification, the reef is a unit of Marines stationed in the preparation of 12 people, then should be 11 people (one reason temporarily off the reef). Inspectors found that the bodies of six soldiers on the reef, and another five people missing. Missing persons including reef Chang allegiance, vice reef long and correspondents. In addition to the personnel on the reef, the reef warrior Xu Huiping Yong Department reef due to the treatment of burns and survived. Inspectors found multiple bullet holes in the room, indicating where the fighting occurred. Then they picked up and from the underwater reef a few rifles, these guns are all our military garrison personnel standard rifle.

This event was caused no small vibration in the army, immediately set up by the South China Sea Fleet of the senior leadership responsible for the investigation team, in-depth and comprehensive investigation, and make rehabilitation work. Findings are confidential at the time, unable to understand the outside.

This strange incident, even if insiders are also controversial. Is encountered enemy special forces raid, fighting or other emergency occurs, the truth has not yet been fully understood.This incident, I analyzed are the following possibilities:

1, most likely by the army special forces is. Vietnamese troops in 1988, "3.14" Red Reef of Nansha sea battle at a disadvantage, must look for an opportunity to retaliate. But then I Nansha garrison high vigilance and patrolling troops, combat readiness, they are hard to find opportunities. I combined the naval prisoners of war captured in Zhanjiang Nansha trial, our government has not yet handed over to Vietnam. Since 1990, our military posture in Nansha is clear, I observe activity patterns reef and the ship's officers that they have already mastered their "revenge about" conditions ripe. According to common sense traces of science, this action does not leave any suspicious items, indicating that other means quite clever. Does not exclude the other is the master shooting, fighting, diving techniques, and even combat may wear body armor. If this action as a planned and premeditated military action, should be considered very successful. But not arbitrary conclusion is that after the successful implementation of this action the enemy, meritorious officers must reward, JiaGuanJinJue, will follow along with the media reports, trumpeted the so-called "heroic deeds", but did not. Things over the past 20 years, information and networks so advanced, Vietnam had not been seen in any public media reported. They do a job well done is confidential?

In addition to the newspaper, the Philippines, Malaysia, accounting for part of my Nansha Islands and, in theory, its military personnel have started to attack me in the reef may be. But the two countries have maintained friendly relations with China over the they dare decorum skin, desperate to take such a big political and military risks? Media in both countries are more open, we were not given any clues, so many years, it is no reflection.

Source: Who killed 11 Chinese troops in Gaven Reefs in 1990 ?
Who killed 11 Chinese troops in Gaven Reefs in 1990 ?
 
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Becareful, the "mysterious forces" may come back and kill your poor soldiers mercilessly again like the incident in Gaven reef in 1990 when 11 Chinese troops were killed mercilessly, and China still dare not open an investigation untill now .:coffee:
This is why I don't take jungle people seriously. LOL I hope you got some ball to stop what we try to do.
 
This is why I don't take jungle people seriously. LOL I hope you got some ball to stop what we try to do.
Then China should have the ball to open the investigation for that sad incident first , come one 'mighty China', dont let ur poor soldiers died without any miserably investigation like that .
 
Right, in VN war, we r no match to USN & USAF, as our great general Vo Nguyen Giap said :"US army can crush VN army within 2 hours if we fight face-to- face with them ", so we just focus in using torpedo & SAM missile .

In that case, why not increase the sub surface fleet even more with some European platforms? Like India is going for 6 Scorpenes, and will perhaps go for 6 more.
 
Then China should have the ball to open the investigation for that sad incident first , come one 'mighty China', dont let ur poor soldiers died without any miserably investigation like that .
If you have the ball, come and take our islands in Paracel and Spratly.
 
In that case, why not increase the sub surface fleet even more with some European platforms? Like India is going for 6 Scorpenes, and will perhaps go for 6 more.

Viet people will never know why their govt buys older Kilos rather than newer Euro platforms like U214 or Scorpene. There were no public tenders and the deals were done secretly behind doors. The Viet tax payers don't even have any idea or clue how their money were spent on these Kilos. The VCP/VPA defenders here (NiceGuy, Carlosa) live in the delusion that it's because Kilos are cheaper but they don't even know what the real cost is.

Different figures have appeared in the media for these Kilos from 1.8billion to over 3billion. The truth is they don't know exactly how much they cost since rosoboronexport is state owned so don't have to reveal to the public real transaction value. It is well known that Viet state agency love to take bribes (latest example being bribe taken from Japanese ODA). My bet why Kilo was chosen is that it's easier for Viet officials to demand bribe from the Russian state owned Rosoboronexport than their EU counterpart. Some EU company offer bribes too but they are usually exposed easily.
 
If you have the ball, come and take our islands in Paracel and Spratly.
We will unify sub-Mekong region first and back to Paracel and Spratly later, why do we need to take those small rock without fresh water now ??

In that case, why not increase the sub surface fleet even more with some European platforms? Like India is going for 6 Scorpenes, and will perhaps go for 6 more.
sub-marine fleet cost lots of money and need to pay a high salary for the crew too. (in VN each sub-marine crew get $2500 / month. Very high for normal soldier only cost 100-200 USD/month.). So, maybe we will buy more subs when we r richer :D
 
In that case, why not increase the sub surface fleet even more with some European platforms? Like India is going for 6 Scorpenes, and will perhaps go for 6 more.
I believe before making next capital investments our army awaits until the US lifts arms embargo, which is going to happen soon.

We will continue to do what we have to do and we dare anyone to shoot at us.
as you can read the quote from the VN General Vinh that Vietnam would not start a conflict in the South China Sea but if one began "we would not just stand back and watch".
 
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I like the word deterrent OP used. Since VN doesn't have many means to really hurts China in case of a clash, those Kilos open up many options. Sure it will be a defensive weapon, because VN won't risk losing them to sink a few Chinese vessels to provoke the already aggressive China. Just to let China know that VN can hurt China, just as China can destroy VN.
 
as you can read the quote from the VN General Vinh that Vietnam would not start a conflict in the South China Sea but if one began "we would not just stand back and watch".
We will destroy you if you sink our ship.
 

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